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List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers - Page 11

post #301 of 820
The BIC PL-89s are rated 98db, 250 watt, 600 watt peak. Assuming the specs are on, since these are close to $500 at Acoustic Sound Design who takes offers per pair, they might be a good choice for a budget tower HT setup.
post #302 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

How do you come to that conclusion?

Efficiency + reviews. But let me retract that statement, that was back when I was ignorant
post #303 of 820
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

The BIC PL-89s are rated 98db, 250 watt, 600 watt peak. Assuming the specs are on, since these are close to $500 at Acoustic Sound Design who takes offers per pair, they might be a good choice for a budget tower HT setup.

As these BICs are not compression drivers, but rather soft domes, do you guys think their sensitivity would test much lower than 98 dB?
post #304 of 820
What a wonderful resource!

Does KEF make anything list-worthy?
post #305 of 820
Most kef speakers are low 90db sensitivity
post #306 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

As these BICs are not compression drivers, but rather soft domes, do you guys think their sensitivity would test much lower than 98 dB?

Yes. I would also be shocked to see them survive a 600 watt peak.
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post #307 of 820
I haven't read through your entire thread, and I'm sure you get sick of hearing it, but... Great resource! Thanks!

I have a request, not sure if you are willing to accomodate, but since your list is supposed to be "educational" in nature maybe you would be willing to provide the .xls spreadsheet vs. a .pdf file?

I ask because it would be awesome if we could sort the information by each column. If I wanted to list all of the manufactures, or the original purposes it would be nice to be able to do it at the click of a button vs. having to pick out the Procella P860 by carefully scrolling through the entire list.

This would be a huge benifit when your list becomes ridiculously long. Maybe you could do something like restrict the editing and include a protected watermark to ensure your info isn't modified.

Just thought I'd throw that out there because having functionality like that would make me want to play with the spreadsheet and reference it all the time!
post #308 of 820
Why do you have the JBL pro sensitivities so low, the ones I used were almost 10 dBs more sensitive than my JTR triple 8's which were rated at 96 dbs at that time. The specs say 103-104 dBs at 1 watt which means the 100 watt would be 123-124 dbs at 1 meter. Is it because they are 4 ohm or something, so are the JTR's. The only speaker I have heard with better dynamics than the JBL pro speakers were the BFM speakers. Of course the JBL pro's had great dynamics down to 40hz where the BFM's went to about 100 dBs, both in room.
post #309 of 820
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I haven't read through your entire thread, and I'm sure you get sick of hearing it, but... Great resource! Thanks!

I have a request, not sure if you are willing to accomodate, but since your list is supposed to be "educational" in nature maybe you would be willing to provide the .xls spreadsheet vs. a .pdf file?

It's in a Google Docs (Drive) spreadsheet, so I'll look at exporting.
post #310 of 820
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Why do you have the JBL pro sensitivities so low, the ones I used were almost 10 dBs more sensitive than my JTR triple 8's which were rated at 96 dbs at that time. ... Is it because they are 4 ohm or something, so are the JTR's. The only speaker I have heard with better dynamics than the JBL pro speakers were the BFM speakers. Of course the JBL pro's had great dynamics down to 40hz where the BFM's went to about 100 dBs, both in room.

Yes, it's because of the 4 ohms, and manufacturers choosing to play fast and loose with their specs (although JBL Pro does better than most).
My comment in the JBL 4722N's sensitivity cell is: "stated 104db sens is for in-room and not normalized for 8ohm."

Let's look at two speakers: JTR Triple 8, and the JBL Pro 4722N. Both are 4ohms.
JTR Triple 8
Stated Sensitivity: 98dB (1w 1m full space)
As they're already stating it in full space, and they used 1w, instead of 2.83v, it's already comparable to 8 ohm speakers using 1w/2.83v. We don't have to adjust its sensitivity.

JBL Pro 4722N
Stated Sensitivity: 104dB (2.83v 1m)
I believe this is in-room, so adjust sensitivity down ~3dB, to 101dB.
They use 2.83v, so when comparing to another 8ohm speaker measured at 1w, one would be led to believe the JBL's sensitivity was higher than it really is. So we drop the sensitivity down another 3dB, to 98db.

The discussion about impedance normalization was started around post #219 and was resolved in post #245.
post #311 of 820
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

...JBL pro sensitivities...The specs say 103-104 dBs at 1 watt which means the 100 watt would be 123-124 dbs at 1 meter.

Can you link to their statement about sensitivity at 1w/1m? Preferably for a speaker already on the list.

I'm wondering if you assumed 1w, but they really say "2.83v."

This area was tough, as you can see if you look back in those posts. I went from not normalizing at all, to normalizing even the 4ohm 1w speakers, to then just normalizing the 4ohm 2.83v speakers.
post #312 of 820
Avantgarde acoustics speakers

I own the duo omega g2 series on their website now.

They sound like you are being touched by the hand of god as far music is concerned. Imaging is close to electrostatics but the force of sound is like a freight train. Amazing detail rendition. Sound coupled with great subs is intoxicating and sounds live. Every guest who hears them has goosebumps and doesnt want to leave their presence. Their website does not exagerate and nor do the reviews. Properly setup... a religious experience

107db sensitivity and very expensive. A serious superspeaker that must be considered when considering horns for music as a primary concern.

Limited marketing in usa anymore.
post #313 of 820
Totally subscribed! Incredible job your doing here Eyleron and I can see you've been working really hard. Great job! My goal in HT is to try and recreate what I hear and see at the local cinema. I've always thought why not just use similar or the same pro cinema speakers to get those incredible dynamics, impact, and sense of effortlessness doing refernce that I hear at the cinemas? I was gunna recommend my fav bang for buck pro cinema speakers, the JBL 3722N, but you already have it on the list. And they appear to have good numbers according to the list and my ears. Will own these someday in the future when I do a full HT upgrade with a perf screen. Until then with my current speakers Im maxxed out at -12db MV before compression takes over. Still loud but not reference. Once again way to go on this list Eyleron!
post #314 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The problem is that most can't handle the power needed for high dynamic movie experiences. I wonder how many here think reference levels are just 0 on their MV. I measured mine and it was about 10 dB's too loud at 0 MV. Just watch a loud scene in a movie on a-weighting and see what it peaks at, mine was 115 dB's which is over reference so -10mv is my new reference level. Every movie will be different but it won't vary too much.

Very intersting findings. I always assumed reference was 0 if you calibrated to 75db with pink noise or 85db in commercial cinema? Thanks MK for pointing this potential problem out. Curious as to which AVR or Pre/Pro you experiencd this on?
post #315 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Avantgarde acoustics speakers

I own the duo omega g2 series on their website now.

They sound like you are being touched by the hand of god as far music is concerned. Imaging is close to electrostatics but the force of sound is like a freight train. Amazing detail rendition. Sound coupled with great subs is intoxicating and sounds live. Every guest who hears them has goosebumps and doesnt want to leave their presence. Their website does not exagerate and nor do the reviews. Properly setup... a religious experience

107db sensitivity and very expensive. A serious superspeaker that must be considered when considering horns for music as a primary concern.

Limited marketing in usa anymore.

Thanks for posting! I had seen pictures but never knew what they were exactly.

post #316 of 820
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Avantgarde acoustics speakers

I own the duo omega g2 series on their website now.
...

Thanks Blazar! I added your Duo Omega ($14,500 each) and the Solo ($6,800 each). These speakers are intimidating...and beautiful. Like a fearsome Teutonic princess!
post #317 of 820
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

It's in a Google Docs (Drive) spreadsheet, so I'll look at exporting.

Here's a link to the Excel file: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bxb...UVlMmxzRzduQ1k
post #318 of 820
You may want to add the Nexo PS10's to the list. Here's the specs:
  • Frequency response (±3dB) 65Hz∼20Hz
  • Sensitivity (SPL, 1W, 1m) 98dB SPL
  • Peak SPL (calculated) 124 ∼ 127dB SPL (for 200 ∼500W RMS Amp.)
post #319 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post


Can you link to their statement about sensitivity at 1w/1m? Preferably for a speaker already on the list.

I'm wondering if you assumed 1w, but they really say "2.83v."

This area was tough, as you can see if you look back in those posts. I went from not normalizing at all, to normalizing even the 4ohm 1w speakers, to then just normalizing the 4ohm 2.83v speakers.

Well from user experience the JBL's were 10 dBs more sensitive with test tones than the triple 8's, the newer triple 8's are 3 dBs more sensitive so now it was 7 dBs more with test tones using the same gear! That is why I made a stink. According to your charts the JTR would be as sensitive and play as loud, not in my room, not even close! I like both speakers too!
post #320 of 820
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmgunn View Post

You may want to add the Nexo PS10's to the list. Here's the specs:
  • Frequency response (±3dB) 65Hz∼20Hz
  • Sensitivity (SPL, 1W, 1m) 98dB SPL
  • Peak SPL (calculated) 124 ∼ 127dB SPL (for 200 ∼500W RMS Amp.)

Added the Nexo PS10, a pro audio stage speaker.

Any thoughts on where they stand with regard to JBL Pro, Meyer Sound, Mackie, ElectroVoice, etc.?

What's the price?
post #321 of 820
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well from user experience the JBL's were 10 dBs more sensitive with test tones than the triple 8's, the newer triple 8's are 3 dBs more sensitive so now it was 7 dBs more with test tones using the same gear! That is why I made a stink. According to your charts the JTR would be as sensitive and play as loud, not in my room, not even close! I like both speakers too!

In post #310 above I'm just looking at what the manufacturers state about their speakers. The JBLs are 6dB more sensitive, according to those two companies, than the JTRs.

Maybe the directivity pattern is different between the two speakers at where you listened (on-axis, versus off-axis, etc.), and that could account for the other 4dB?
post #322 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

In post #310 above I'm just looking at what the manufacturers state about their speakers. The JBLs are 6dB more sensitive, according to those two companies, than the JTRs.

Maybe the directivity pattern is different between the two speakers at where you listened (on-axis, versus off-axis, etc.), and that could account for the other 4dB?

Or just marketing people adjustments to manufacturer's data...
post #323 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

In post #310 above I'm just looking at what the manufacturers state about their speakers. The JBLs are 6dB more sensitive, according to those two companies, than the JTRs.

Maybe the directivity pattern is different between the two speakers at where you listened (on-axis, versus off-axis, etc.), and that could account for the other 4dB?

What it means is that specs without measured SPL charts are just marketing tools. There are lies, there are damnable lies, and there are statistics. In this case said statistics are called 'specs'.
post #324 of 820
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well from user experience the JBL's were 10 dBs more sensitive with test tones than the triple 8's, the newer triple 8's are 3 dBs more sensitive so now it was 7 dBs more with test tones using the same gear! That is why I made a stink. According to your charts the JTR would be as sensitive and play as loud, not in my room, not even close! I like both speakers too!

I still don't know what speaker you're talking about, but I suspect it might be the 4722N or 3722N, as the chart shows 98dB sensitivity for them, and the JTR Triple 8.

Some other thoughts about reconciling your experiences with those speakers (JBL sounded more sensitive)...

Each speaker probably has its sensitivity measured with differing methods. One could be average of 100 Hz to 10 kHz, the other could be just at 1000 Hz. So if the frequency response isn't flat at the level you were playing, you'd hear differences in their performance.

I mentioned directivity before, but there's also the placement with respect to boundaries, as Bill mentioned. SBIR and comb filtering would give you difference peaks and nulls if their position in the room wasn't the same.
post #325 of 820
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

What it means is that specs without measured SPL charts are just marketing tools. There are lies, there are damnable lies, and there are statistics. In this case said statistics are called 'specs'.

True, and this is a collection of specs, but also I'm trying to iron out some of the lies here and there, so the specs are massaged to compare apples to apples.

If I suspect the sensitivity is as measured in half space, I subtract 3dB, so that all speakers are in full space.

If the sensitivity is measured as 2.83v for an 4ohm speaker, I subtract 3dB.

Most subjectively, if the common wisdom is that a line of speakers misreports its sensitivity, I've padded it down (Klipsch).

In this particular case of the JBLs versus JTR, if we can gather more evidence that JTR over-states their speakers' sensitivity, I'd be willing to do the same pad sensitivity down. Or, if we agree that JBL under-states their sensitivity, I'd be willing to increase it over what they state.
post #326 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post


In this particular case of the JBLs versus JTR, if we can gather more evidence that JTR over-states their speakers' sensitivity, I'd be willing to do the same pad sensitivity down. Or, if we agree that JBL under-states their sensitivity, I'd be willing to increase it over what they state.

Since it's known what drivers are in both simply model them and remove all doubt.
post #327 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post


Added the Nexo PS10, a pro audio stage speaker.


Any thoughts on where they stand with regard to JBL Pro, Meyer Sound, Mackie, ElectroVoice, etc.?


What's the price?

I'd put them up with Meyer Sound. That's a common comparison in the Pro world. The new R2 version goes for around $1,600 +/- a few hundred each. I got mine for $700, but they were beat up and had to be refinished.
post #328 of 820
I wasn't sure if this was already asked, but has anyone come across surround (ie bipole, dipole etc) speakers that are reference capable?
post #329 of 820
Thanks for compiling this list! Very useful...
post #330 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmgunn View Post

I wasn't sure if this was already asked, but has anyone come across surround (ie bipole, dipole etc) speakers that are reference capable?
Bipole/dipole and high sensitivity are pretty much mutually exclusive terms.
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