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List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers - Page 20

post #571 of 690
12/13/12 at 2:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

I wonder that too. If so great linearity for sure.
Most amps have great linearity at small signal levels. It's a different story at full power, where power rail sag usually will result in halving of the load impedance giving only a roughly 1.7x increase in power. But if the amp is rated conservatively, at levels below where power rail sag occurs, it can be just as linear at rated power as at small signal levels. Most manufacturers don't rate their amps conservatively, of course. IMO watt wars are the only reason for nearly everyone jumping on board the series bridging bandwagon, even though it has limited usefulness.
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post #572 of 690
12/13/12 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Was that actually ever measured?

I assume that Krell measured it; though of course they would not be impartial.

I did a quick google search and found the related KSA-200S
http://www.stereophile.com/content/krell-ksa-200s-power-amplifier-measurements

"With the normal wall outlet supply, within 3% of the rated line voltage, the amplifier happily pushed out a generous 280Wpc into 8 ohms (24.5dBW) over essentially the whole 20Hz–20kHz power bandwidth. The specified power doubling was achieved into 4 and 2 ohms. Into the latter, for example, the Krell would deliver 23.4dBW, or a true 852W! With the available wall current, I could not quite hit the 1600W/1 ohm jackpot; I had to be satisfied with 1560W, a trivial shortfall of precisely 0.1dB."

So the close relative did better than claimed (280WPC vs 200WPC) at 8ohm and managed just shy of the claimed 1600W @1 ohm.
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post #573 of 690
12/13/12 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Most amps have great linearity at small signal levels. It's a different story at full power, where power rail sag usually will result in halving of the load impedance giving only a roughly 1.7x increase in power. But if the amp is rated conservatively, at levels below where power rail sag occurs, it can be just as linear at rated power as at small signal levels. Most manufacturers don't rate their amps conservatively, of course. IMO watt wars are the only reason for nearly everyone jumping on board the series bridging bandwagon, even though it has limited usefulness.

That makes sense.
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post #574 of 690
12/13/12 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

I assume that Krell measured it; though of course they would not be impartial.
I did a quick google search and found the related KSA-200S
http://www.stereophile.com/content/krell-ksa-200s-power-amplifier-measurements
"With the normal wall outlet supply, within 3% of the rated line voltage, the amplifier happily pushed out a generous 280Wpc into 8 ohms (24.5dBW) over essentially the whole 20Hz–20kHz power bandwidth. The specified power doubling was achieved into 4 and 2 ohms. Into the latter, for example, the Krell would deliver 23.4dBW, or a true 852W! With the available wall current, I could not quite hit the 1600W/1 ohm jackpot; I had to be satisfied with 1560W, a trivial shortfall of precisely 0.1dB."
So the close relative did better than claimed (280WPC vs 200WPC) at 8ohm and managed just shy of the claimed 1600W @1 ohm.

OH, this is one of their pure class A amps, I thought it was was a different one which I owned before. I have always wanted to try their pure class A amps and that measured performance is SWEET! I know Ada lowered their 8 ohm rating to get that magical double down into 4 ohms but they are awesome nonetheless. I have never tried those krell pure class A amps, do they do a better job than their KAV little brothers because I did not like it at all. It was used so the amp could have been faulty maybe?
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post #575 of 690
12/13/12 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

OH, this is one of their pure class A amps, I thought it was was a different one which I owned before. I have always wanted to try their pure class A amps and that measured performance is SWEET! I know Ada lowered their 8 ohm rating to get that magical double down into 4 ohms but they are awesome nonetheless. I have never tried those krell pure class A amps, do they do a better job than their KAV little brothers because I did not like it at all. It was used so the amp could have been faulty maybe?

Prolly not. I would say it just wasn't gettin the job done for your aplication. Unless it was repaired by someone who replaced a capacitor with a wrong type or something.
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post #576 of 690
12/13/12 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

Prolly not. I would say it just wasn't gettin the job done for your aplication. Unless it was repaired by someone who replaced a capacitor with a wrong type or something.

Accidental post. sorry
Edited by Reddig - 12/13/12 at 9:58pm
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post #577 of 690
12/14/12 at 9:03pm
Thread Starter 

Vapor Audio: Arcus

 

Next up is something that looks like a ribbon speaker, but actually it's a tweeter that uses folded geometry to achieve a higher surface area than a dome tweeter. The Beyma Air Motion Transformer is in a waveguide, and a 10" midwoofer suggests in can handle the midbass duties.
Reported as 93dB sensitivity (not sure if that's in-room or anechoic) and 500w program power handling with 120dB max SPL 1m.

More audiophile-intended, with attention to the cabinet that's stacked ply lamination skinned in .060" sheet aluminum. Priced at $5,895 a pair.

 

 

 


Edited by Eyleron - 12/14/12 at 9:29pm
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post #578 of 690
12/15/12 at 10:43pm
Just to update, my amp is fine as I played some music tonight at loud levels and it was awesome! I bought this CD 8 years ago because my first child at that time liked to dance to the songs. It was the same CD I used to test subs and speakers back then. Well let me tell you there is no competition to what it sounds like now, holy crap! These speakers sound like my M&K S-5000's as tone is concerned but have better detail, dynamics, soundstage, sensitivity, etc.... They are the 5000's on steroids. BTW the CD is Ciara goodies.
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post #579 of 690
12/15/12 at 11:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Vapor Audio: Arcus




Next up is something that looks like a ribbon speaker, but actually it's a tweeter that uses folded geometry to achieve a higher surface area than a dome tweeter. The Beyma Air Motion Transformer is in a waveguide, and a 10" midwoofer suggests in can handle the midbass duties.

Reported as 93dB sensitivity (not sure if that's in-room or anechoic) and 500w program power handling with 120dB max SPL 1m.
More audiophile-intended, with attention to the cabinet that's stacked ply lamination skinned in .060" sheet aluminum. Priced at $5,895 a pair.





I'd recommend reading the Vapor Audio thread before trotting this out as a candidate.
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post #580 of 690
12/16/12 at 8:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I'd recommend reading the Vapor Audio thread before trotting this out as a candidate.

I think you mean "Vapor Audio."

There does not seem to be an actual legal entity by that name.
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post #581 of 690
12/16/12 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

I think you mean "Vapor Audio."
There does not seem to be an actual legal entity by that name.
I'd like to say that it appears to be a Mickey Mouse operation but I received a cease and desist letter from the Minnie and Goofy Law Firm.
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post #582 of 690
12/16/12 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Just to update, my amp is fine as I played some music tonight at loud levels and it was awesome! I bought this CD 8 years ago because my first child at that time liked to dance to the songs. It was the same CD I used to test subs and speakers back then. Well let me tell you there is no competition to what it sounds like now, holy crap! These speakers sound like my M&K S-5000's as tone is concerned but have better detail, dynamics, soundstage, sensitivity, etc.... They are the 5000's on steroids. BTW the CD is Ciara goodies.

Thats awesome man as IIRC your goal was to find a speaker with a feel like the S-5000s but the midrange and dynamics of your old JBL Pro3622Ns. Now I know that you are like me as in being kinda addicted to the whole process of getting a new setup and finding out its capabilites. Seems you have found the ultimate bang for buck setup. Any future plans to help feed that addiction or are you satisfied for a long time?
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post #583 of 690
12/17/12 at 7:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I'd recommend reading the Vapor Audio thread before trotting this out as a candidate.

Well, it was submitted to me as a speaker to add. After a few days, I asked for some clarification on the sensitivity (anechoic or half-space) and any additional measurements they might want to provide. I didn't hear back, and then I added it to the list.

 

So, the gait was more of a "walk" than a "trot." smile.gif

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post #584 of 690
12/17/12 at 7:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

Thats awesome man as IIRC your goal was to find a speaker with a feel like the S-5000s but the midrange and dynamics of your old JBL Pro3622Ns. Now I know that you are like me as in being kinda addicted to the whole process of getting a new setup and finding out its capabilites. Seems you have found the ultimate bang for buck setup. Any future plans to help feed that addiction or are you satisfied for a long time?

My next change will be selling my wedge 8's and getting two more DR-250's for my surrounds so all 5 speakers match exactly. Then I will get 3 more T-39's for the bottoms of my front arrays. So I will have dual stacked dr-250's with a T-39 bottom for the LCR's and a single DR-250 with a T-39 bottom for the surrounds. Out of all my speakers I have owned there is nothing that can touch the dual stacked with T-39 bottom as a speaker that I have heard! One can build this setup for a $800 per speaker and it is amazing. I played Ciara's CD at 5 dBs over reference and the energy was awesome. If one likes very clear and loud they will be very impressed. I have to bring Madaeel back for a listen! I was impressed and the best music presentation I ever heard were McIntosh huge line arrays that cost $50k each, I would put this $800 speaker against it any day!
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post #585 of 690
12/17/12 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My next change will be selling my wedge 8's and getting two more DR-250's for my surrounds so all 5 speakers match exactly. Then I will get 3 more T-39's for the bottoms of my front arrays. So I will have dual stacked dr-250's with a T-39 bottom for the LCR's and a single DR-250 with a T-39 bottom for the surrounds. Out of all my speakers I have owned there is nothing that can touch the dual stacked with T-39 bottom as a speaker that I have heard! One can build this setup for a $800 per speaker and it is amazing. I played Ciara's CD at 5 dBs over reference and the energy was awesome. If one likes very clear and loud they will be very impressed. I have to bring Madaeel back for a listen! I was impressed and the best music presentation I ever heard were McIntosh huge line arrays that cost $50k each, I would put this $800 speaker against it any day!

Right on man thats awesome!!
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post #586 of 690
12/17/12 at 2:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Not bad, but MKs stacked DR250s gets him to over 109dB/w, per stack. He can get reference from a 15w Lepai running off a battery. eek.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

We are talking 600 watts vs 500 watts into 4 ohms. The Ada will provide 700 watts for 2 ohms as well and the emo is not stable at 2 ohms.

Maybe I missed this in another thread...

But why is such a large amp needed for such efficient speakers?

If 15w per channel gets 105dB, and 39w would get 109dB.... ? 

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post #587 of 690
12/17/12 at 2:53pm
It is not needed at all, just a stable 4 ohm amp and AVR's don't handle 4 ohms well even sensitive speakers. I am sure there are a couple out there that can. I just happen to have this gear for a long time.
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post #588 of 690
12/19/12 at 7:35pm
Thread Starter 

Ahoy Tannoy!

Tannoy makes well-regarded professional speakers used in homes, cinemas, stages, and studios. They use a concentric woofer-tweeter arrangement that provides better phase response and time-alignment.

 

Tannoy DC12i

A Tannoy DC12i owner pointed out the program watts for that speaker was off. It should be 400w. This is corrected, and I added a link to their specs.

 

Speaking of specs and what manufacturers are willing to provide: check out the data that Tannoy gives out. You can see distortion at 1% and 10% max power for three freqs and 2nd and 3rd harmonic. Directivity. Beamwidth. Freq response. Polar plots. And you can download EASE data! 

 

To atone for the sin of my error, I've added a few more Tannoy speakers to the spreadsheet.

Two of these stage speakers are the VX 12, which is similar to the DC12i and the VX 8, which is similar to the DCi. 

 

Tannoy VQ 60

 

The third large-venue stage speaker is the VQ 60. It's something that MKTheater might use. And, oops, it's a little largish. 

Semi-horn-loaded woofer. 2000w program and 4000w peak power handling. 105dB sensitivity.

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post #589 of 690
12/19/12 at 7:56pm
Eyleron,

is there a reason why Pi speakers did not make the list?
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post #590 of 690
12/20/12 at 5:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

Eyleron,
is there a reason why Pi speakers did not make the list?


I have been reading up on Pi speakers and Econowaves. The latter can be overwhelming in the amount of info on variants. It's challenging to separate no-sub advice/designs (which are the majority) from the high sensitivity ones, which is what I'm interested in.

For the 3Pi, I am confused that the woofer is shown on Parts Express to be 95dB (I believe this would be half-space). Wayne specs the speaker at 95dB, but that's in quarter space. To convert to half-space that'd be 91dB. EDIT Sorry meant 92dB. Am I missing something?


Edited by Eyleron - 12/20/12 at 7:44am
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post #591 of 690
12/20/12 at 6:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

For the 3Pi, I am confused that the woofer is shown on Parts Express to be 95dB (I believe this would be half-space). Wayne specs the speaker at 95dB, but that's in quarter space. To convert to half-space that'd be 91dB. Am I missing something?
Raw driver sensitivity is based on response in a standard baffle, basically a large IB, and that's not the same as what you get in an enclosure.
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post #592 of 690
12/20/12 at 6:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

I have been reading up on Pi speakers and Econowaves. The latter can be overwhelming in the amount of info on variants. It's challenging to separate no-sub advice/designs (which are the majority) from the high sensitivity ones, which is what I'm interested in.
For the 3Pi, I am confused that the woofer is shown on Parts Express to be 95dB (I believe this would be half-space). Wayne specs the speaker at 95dB, but that's in quarter space. To convert to half-space that'd be 91dB. Am I missing something?

is not it 3dB drop from quarter to half space? there are actual half space SPL charts on his site. It looks like the sensitivity for 4pi and 3pi is 95dB and 92dB respectively. And that's being on conservative side.



http://www.pispeakers.com/Measurements/threePi.html



http://www.pispeakers.com/Measurements/fourPi.html
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post #593 of 690
12/20/12 at 7:38am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Raw driver sensitivity is based on response in a standard baffle, basically a large IB, and that's not the same as what you get in an enclosure.

So, if the woofer is 95dB (which is lower than the compression driver), does it make sense that the speaker in quarter-space is 95dB?

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post #594 of 690
12/20/12 at 8:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post


is not it 3dB drop from quarter to half space? there are actual half space SPL charts on his site. It looks like the sensitivity for 4pi and 3pi is 95dB and 92dB respectively. And that's being on conservative side.

Okay, so I had trouble this morning with the complicated math of 95-3 biggrin.gif. Yes, 92dB.

 

The charts show it varying between 92 and 95dB. Not sure if those charts are also quarter-space as he says on his prices/specs page: http://www.pispeakers.com/Prices.html

 

So, the Pi3 at 92dB would be 89dB anechoic on my spreadsheet. He says 300w power handling, so I'll call that program power.

 

The Pi4 definitely looks better for sensitivity.

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post #595 of 690
12/20/12 at 8:04am
the SPL charts are half-space (groundplane)
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post #596 of 690
12/20/12 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

the SPL charts are half-space (groundplane)
Half-space and ground plane aren't the same thing. Ground plane is the same as half-space only up to the baffle step frequency; above that ground plane is quarter-space. With subs the baffle step tends to be above the sub passband, so a ground plane measurement is OK, but not so with mains. The usual method for measuring mains is outdoors (unless you happen to own an anechoic chamber) first taking a ground plane, then putting the cab on its back facing up, the mic suspended above, to get a half-space result above the baffle step, splicing the two results. Alternately you can dig a hole in the ground, put the speaker in facing up, and back fill around the speaker to get the baffle level with the ground. Measuring that with the mic suspended above will give you a broadband half space result, but it's a tad more effort that way.
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post #597 of 690
12/20/12 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Maybe I missed this in another thread...
But why is such a large amp needed for such efficient speakers?
If 15w per channel gets 105dB, and 39w would get 109dB.... ? 

A lower powered amp may be able to play at reference level but it will clip many of the transients in doing so. I’ll bet that even MK’s very efficient speakers and powerful amp will clip some of the transients at reference level. The transients make speech more intelligible and add richness to music and special effects. This is my primary interest in high efficiency speakers.

The following is a description of an experience well-known amplifier designer Bob Carver had: "Once, Bob Carver visited a famous sound researcher who was attempting to recreate the "snip" of an ordinary pair of scissors. He used no less than TWENTY-FOUR 200-watt amplifiers for playback, yet when viewed on an oscilloscope it was apparent that the top of that instantaneous transient was being distorted. Believe it or not, he needed more power! It was evident that real-world sound occurs very quickly and requires far more power than ANY current amplifier could produce.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=73991.0

Speech is composed in part of affricatives, or consonants that begin as stops, like Ts and Ds. These are similar to the scissors snip in the experience Bob Carver had. They are instantaneous transients that require an enormous amount of power to reproduce without clipping. Even with high efficiency speakers you need all the power you can get. Then hope your speakers will produce those transients without distorting too much.
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post #598 of 690
12/20/12 at 9:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Half-space and ground plane aren't the same thing. Ground plane is the same as half-space only up to the baffle step frequency; above that ground plane is quarter-space. With subs the baffle step tends to be above the sub passband, so a ground plane measurement is OK, but not so with mains. The usual method for measuring mains is outdoors (unless you happen to own an anechoic chamber) first taking a ground plane, then putting the cab on its back facing up, the mic suspended above, to get a half-space result above the baffle step, splicing the two results. Alternately you can dig a hole in the ground, put the speaker in facing up, and back fill around the speaker to get the baffle level with the ground. Measuring that with the mic suspended above will give you a broadband half space result, but it's a tad more effort that way.

cool, i did not know this. thank you
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post #599 of 690
12/20/12 at 10:38am
Bunkum on the scissors.
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post #600 of 690
12/20/12 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimsfield View Post


The following is a description of an experience well-known amplifier designer Bob Carver had: "Once, Bob Carver visited a famous sound researcher who was attempting to recreate the "snip" of an ordinary pair of scissors.
I just measured the snip of my scissors at 90dB...when they were placed two inches from the meter. That puts this story into the urban myth bin.
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