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List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers - Page 22

post #631 of 690
1/9/13 at 10:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denkiedenk View Post

That being said, i'm pretty sure teh audiokinesis lines also belong on this distinguished list, have a look guys :
http://www.audiokinesis.com/akspeakers.html
...
expecially the rethm prism should qualify for this list at 93 db w m sensitivity and 900 watts peak power handling and at 2300 bucks a pair assembled not at all that crazy

 

AudioKinesis is on the list with the Thunderchild, a pro audio speaker of theirs. This is a company that I hear about once in a while when people are asking about high sensitivity speakers, so it's still been on my mind to go back and add more of their models. Your suggestion pushed me to do this now! smile.gif

 

The Rhythm Prism is interesting for several reasons. It subscribes to controlled directivity practices, with a 90 deg horizontal pattern and control down to 1.4kHz. Not quite as low as the Pi Speakers or SEOS designs. It is designed for corner placement, so maybe they're making up for loss of sensitivity in the bass by a eighth-space placement? The shape of the cabinet actually fits it into a corner. It loses sensitivity I suspect due to the deeper extension to 42Hz. 

 

They also subscribe to using pro audio drivers for greater sensitivity and lower distortion, like the 12" neodymium magnet woofer used in this speaker. They do mention power compression of less than 1dB at 110dB (don't know at what frequency or for how long), to their credit.

 

Pi Speakers also has the Corner-horn line, but with those the woofer is also horn-loaded.

 

Since they report the sensitivity as "93 dB at 1 watt at 1 meter calculated, based on the Thiele/Small parameters"

and they intend the speaker in the corner, I wonder if this sensitivity is off by 3 to 6db of what would be a more "normal" ground-space measurement? The fact that they have that extension also suggests to me such. If so, I would report their ground-plane as at most 90dB, which is kind of a medium sensitivity.


Edited by Eyleron - 1/9/13 at 11:55am
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post #632 of 690
1/11/13 at 5:45am
I figured this would be a good place to post my question. I currently have 3 eD[c]12's for my LCR and am looking at getting some surrounds in the near future. Would anyone have any suggestions for speakers that would go well with my eD's.

I was looking at these JBL speakers http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=638082&is=REG&A=details&Q= but am not sure if these are a good match or not.

I also figured worst case I could go with some Klipsch RB41 or RB51 but am not sure if these speakers will integrate will with my eD's in concerns to the CD.
Edited by Smigro - 1/11/13 at 5:50am
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post #633 of 690
1/11/13 at 11:50am
Thread Starter 
Just now there was some discussion of the big brother to that speaker, the 8340, here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417596/differences-between-dna-360-dna-350/0_100#post_22814686 . You should ask them about the dirt cheap pricing in a PM. Vertical uniform directivity down is important for surrounds because their vertical response affects the seats left-right axis.
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post #634 of 690
1/11/13 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Just now there was some discussion of the big brother to that speaker, the 8340, here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417596/differences-between-dna-360-dna-350/0_100#post_22814686 . You should ask them about the dirt cheap pricing in a PM. Vertical uniform directivity down is important for surrounds because their vertical response affects the seats left-right axis.

TY for the post. I will check it out.
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post #635 of 690
1/11/13 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMovieNut View Post

The "famous sound researcher" was Dick Burwen. The amps were Phase Linear 400s, hence Bob Carver's involvement. I remember reading the scissors story and I thought it came from a 1976 Audio magazine article on Burwen's sound system. The story is not in the article written by Burwen himself. It may have been in an accompanying article. In any case you can see the article and Burwen's system in its current state here:

http://www.burwenaudio.com/Sound_System.html

If you think you are serious about audio, take a look at this system and recalibrate your thinking. And wipe that drool from your mouth.

Cheers,
OldMovieNut

Absolutely incredible system Mr. Burwen has! I love his room so much. Crazy the surrounds are all reflected sound.
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post #636 of 690
1/13/13 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post




AudioKinesis is on the list with the Thunderchild, a pro audio speaker of theirs. This is a company that I hear about once in a while when people are asking about high sensitivity speakers, so it's still been on my mind to go back and add more of their models. Your suggestion pushed me to do this now! smile.gif

Sorry i missed the former audiokinesis listing, great work on this list, one of the best idea's ever !

I think wayne parham knows a bit more of these speakerlines, although i'm not sure he would like to elaborate ofcourse lol.

Wayne ?
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post #637 of 690
1/13/13 at 5:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigro View Post

I figured this would be a good place to post my question. I currently have 3 eD[c]12's for my LCR and am looking at getting some surrounds in the near future. Would anyone have any suggestions for speakers that would go well with my eD's.

I was looking at these JBL speakers http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=638082&is=REG&A=details&Q= but am not sure if these are a good match or not.

I also figured worst case I could go with some Klipsch RB41 or RB51 but am not sure if these speakers will integrate will with my eD's in concerns to the CD.

Smigro, I don't know if you have any interest in DIY, but I heard a pair of the SEOS speakers yesterday.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450390/l-r-seos-tempest-build-jeff-bagby-design/30#post_22821055
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post #638 of 690
1/14/13 at 8:21am
Thread Starter 

Denkiedenk:

It looks like what you quoted got mixed up with that you're saying?

 

Yes, someone familiar with the different waveguides could better speak to the design choices AudioKinesis makes.

Some of their horns are symmetrical like Geddes'. Others are asymmetrical like Wayne's.

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post #639 of 690
1/14/13 at 8:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post


Smigro, I don't know if you have any interest in DIY, but I heard a pair of the SEOS speakers yesterday.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450390/l-r-seos-tempest-build-jeff-bagby-design/30#post_22821055

Here are some more EOS designs:

 

For bipole/dipole, I've looked at moving from my Paradigm dipoles to bipoles for a more "direct" and less diffuse sound. Now I'm on the fence on bipoles versus a wide directivity horn speaker. Vertical directivity will be more important than in front speakers, because for a surround, "vertical" sweeps across the seats in the horizontal axis of the room. This is another case where time-intensity trading in a uniform directivity design can work to your benefit in cross-firing the surrounds, where the farthest seat is on-axis, and the nearest seat is off-axis, but getting the same frequency response. The tradeoffs of distance and intensity should yield a more even response for all listeners.

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post #640 of 690
1/15/13 at 12:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Smigro, I don't know if you have any interest in DIY, but I heard a pair of the SEOS speakers yesterday.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450390/l-r-seos-tempest-build-jeff-bagby-design/30#post_22821055

And? How did you like them?
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post #641 of 690
1/15/13 at 5:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

And? How did you like them?

Oh, sorry. My impressions are further in that thread but basically I liked them a lot. We played the SEOS speakers for quite awhile and then played the eD Cinema 12's right after that. The 2 sounded very similar (and look very similar too), but I thought the SEOS had smoother highs and a fuller sounding mid bass - what was really cool is that when we ran the SEOS full range the bass was very nice, and when we measured them the omnimic had the bass dipping easily into the 30's in my room.

If I still owned the eD's I'm not sure the difference would have been enough to make a switch to the SEOS, but if didn't own the eD's and had the option between the two I would take the SEOS speakers.
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post #642 of 690
1/15/13 at 6:16am
Also the SEOS were about 5db less sensitive than the eD's.
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post #643 of 690
1/15/13 at 6:47am
I think eD sacrificed midbass for sensitivity. My eD had nice midbass but also used a better woofer. It was also 100 dB sensitive. I knew the seos CD and horn would be smoother than the eD's though. Now imagine building a seos designed $1000 speaker, I bet that would put a hurting on many ID speakers, any of them. I know my arrays sound much more dynamic, bigger, clearer, than my upgraded eD's did, which used the DE-250 and 3012HO woofer.
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post #644 of 690
1/15/13 at 9:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I think eD sacrificed midbass for sensitivity. My eD had nice midbass but also used a better woofer. It was also 100 dB sensitive. I knew the seos CD and horn would be smoother than the eD's though. Now imagine building a seos designed $1000 speaker, I bet that would put a hurting on many ID speakers, any of them. I know my arrays sound much more dynamic, bigger, clearer, than my upgraded eD's did, which used the DE-250 and 3012HO woofer.

I doubt it would put a hurting on the Noesis, we listened to them after the other 2 speakers and it wasn't close. We were trying to come up with a number of how expensive it would be to make your own Noesis and it was more than 1000, the CD alone is a good chunk of that. We were thinking 1500 bucks?

That said, I'd love to hear a 1000 seos creation.
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post #645 of 690
1/15/13 at 9:39am
Well, the seos waveguides are much cheaper than the one in the noesis so you save there and one can get great drivers for cheap. Also we can save big on crossover as we can use active ones which I like much better. I prefer no crossovers as it lets me tweak to tastes with my DCX. It can always be done with DIY because we don't need to sell them. I still want to hear a noesis and trust me if it blew me away and the price was justified I would buy them too! Sometimes it is just that much easier.
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post #646 of 690
1/15/13 at 9:56am
MK
You are one of the individuals that I am sure Jeff would be willing to send you a pair for demo. Since you allow and encourage others to come over to your HT for listening sessions. smile.gif
There is alot of people that would like to read your thoughts on the Noesis.
Only thing left is to make it happen.wink.gif
Chris
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post #647 of 690
1/15/13 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Smigro, I don't know if you have any interest in DIY, but I heard a pair of the SEOS speakers yesterday.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450390/l-r-seos-tempest-build-jeff-bagby-design/30#post_22821055

I would love to go that route except I do not have the tools or woodworking skills to do anything half as nice as what some of these guys did and quite frankly looking at that crossover designs confused me. I am relatively new to the scene and do not have the experience some of the guys on here have.

One thing I am not sure of though is if these builds used flat packs or people made all of the cuts themselves. If there is a flat pack available I would definitely consider it since then all you really have to do is glue it together, put the components in and and I guess build the the XO (which I guess I could figure out).

If there is such a package available for a 6", 8" or possibly 10" speaker would anyone have a link to that. I have looked around that DIY website and I must be looking in the wrong places.
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post #648 of 690
1/15/13 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

MK
You are one of the individuals that I am sure Jeff would be willing to send you a pair for demo. Since you allow and encourage others to come over to your HT for listening sessions. smile.gif
There is alot of people that would like to read your thoughts on the Noesis.
Only thing left is to make it happen.wink.gif
Chris

I don't know man, MK loves those speakers that made my ears scream for mercy and had all of us running from the room!! eek.gif His ears are shot from running movies at 130 db's all these years.

I kid of course, we couldn't get the eq to sound right that night, I would love to hear those beasts when dialed in. Wish you lived closer to KC...
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post #649 of 690
1/15/13 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I don't know man, MK loves those speakers that made my ears scream for mercy and had all of us running from the room!! eek.gif His ears are shot from running movies at 130 db's all these years.

I kid of course, we couldn't get the eq to sound right that night, I would love to hear those beasts when dialed in. Wish you lived closer to KC...

When my kids get a little older(3 of them) I bet I will be making more trips. Yeah, I had Madaeel over my place and he loved the DR's. I base everything off how well my system sounds at reference at my seats, no more or less. Of course the MV does move a little but I do like JTR. If you guys and Jeff say they are awesome I would believe you. To me they are already dialed in with proper crossover so tweaking them to taste would be easy from room to room. The DR's are a different animal and they need to be placed properly due to their line array tweeters because above and below the speaker drops off fast. The best placement is above facing down or the obvious stack of arrays from floor to ceiling. My room has natural midbass boost at my seats so taming them is all about the midbass and my room absorbs the HF's really well. There is no way my DR's sound the same as your GTG because I don't like screechy, harsh, etc... as well. My wife hates DTS decoding because she thinks it sounds screechy and loves THX. I told her THX processing rolls off the highs and that is why she likes it better. When I first put the DR's in she said put it in THX mode and I said it is and she said these are junk, get rid of them! Last night we watched Dredd at reference and she said it sound great! I told her the same speakers were being used and she said NO WAY. I have a feeling you guys had them setup like I did originally and I would agree 100%! My response at the seats looks more like your JTR's does from your GTG but mine are still flatter. I use high end electronics and THX processing if that makes any difference. Madaeel felt that they did after hearing the room. I am actually thinking of swapping out the equipment and try something else to see what I can do. Before I build the T-48's for midbass I am going to get a processor and raise the XO to 150hz and let the subs belt out the midbass. It worked great before with my elite AVR.
Edited by MKtheater - 1/15/13 at 12:03pm
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post #650 of 690
1/15/13 at 11:59am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigro View Post


I would love to go that route except I do not have the tools or woodworking skills to do anything half as nice as what some of these guys did and quite frankly looking at that crossover designs confused me. I am relatively new to the scene and do not have the experience some of the guys on here have.

One thing I am not sure of though is if these builds used flat packs or people made all of the cuts themselves. If there is a flat pack available I would definitely consider it since then all you really have to do is glue it together, put the components in and and I guess build the the XO (which I guess I could figure out).

If there is such a package available for a 6", 8" or possibly 10" speaker would anyone have a link to that. I have looked around that DIY website and I must be looking in the wrong places.

Eric is working on adding to and reorganizing the content. I can empathize with your confusion.

I bought the Fusion Max (lowest level that included the B&C 250 clone compression driver) myself. And I suspect my woodworking skills are beneath yours. redface.gif

 

SEOS Speaker Kits: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits.html

These include front baffle, drivers, crossover parts.

 

Flatpacks for the rest of the box: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/seos-flat-packs.html

 

Also, they've found someone to assemble crossovers for like $15 or so shipped.

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post #651 of 690
1/15/13 at 12:02pm
MK, you have to be talking about someone else - unless Jonathan (Archaea) took a trip out to your place and is holding out on the rest of us KC boys by not telling us!! smile.gif
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post #652 of 690
1/15/13 at 12:05pm
Yeah, I just edited, I had Archaea on my mind for some reason eek.gif I meant Madaeel. I must have just read a captivator post!
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post #653 of 690
1/15/13 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Eric is working on adding to and reorganizing the content. I can empathize with your confusion.
I bought the Fusion Max (lowest level that included the B&C 250 clone compression driver) myself. And I suspect my woodworking skills are beneath yours. redface.gif

SEOS Speaker Kits: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits.html
These include front baffle, drivers, crossover parts.

Flatpacks for the rest of the box: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/seos-flat-packs.html

Also, they've found someone to assemble crossovers for like $15 or so shipped.

Thanks for the reply. I will have to keep an eye on his website since I am really trying to get my hands on a decent pair of high efficiency speakers for surround use in the near future. I am sure if I got the kits that included the baffle I could do the rest of the box myself and if someone is will to build the XO for a small fee that would be even better.

By the size of it that KARMA-8 kit seems like it would be my best bet, but I was trying to get something a little more efficient to match a little better with the 97dB efficiency of my mains...although I am not sure is you can get the kind of sensitivity out of a smaller 8" driver.
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post #654 of 690
1/15/13 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigro View Post

Thanks for the reply. I will have to keep an eye on his website since I am really trying to get my hands on a decent pair of high efficiency speakers for surround use in the near future. I am sure if I got the kits that included the baffle I could do the rest of the box myself and if someone is will to build the XO for a small fee that would be even better.

By the size of it that KARMA-8 kit seems like it would be my best bet, but I was trying to get something a little more efficient to match a little better with the 97dB efficiency of my mains...although I am not sure is you can get the kind of sensitivity out of a smaller 8" driver.

Surrounds are usually much closer and require less power to reach the same 105 dB peak for reference so sensitivity can be off some for surrounds. I would worry more about timbre matching the woofers. Was that the basic model eD? what were the drivers used again? Selenium CD(same as sho-10) and which eminence woofer? I would get the same woofer but in a 10 or 8 and use the same CD. Does Erich have something like that?
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post #655 of 690
1/15/13 at 2:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigro View Post
By the size of it that KARMA-8 kit seems like it would be my best bet, but I was trying to get something a little more efficient to match a little better with the 97dB efficiency of my mains...although I am not sure is you can get the kind of sensitivity out of a smaller 8" driver.

You're right, you can't get that sensitivity AND the extension to ~100Hz in an 8". 

 

Timbre matching isn't as important in surrounds, unless you're listening to a lot of multi-channel music.

 

I've seen an on-wall SEOS that has the angle built into it so that it points down. For the life of me I can't find it now! 

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post #656 of 690
1/15/13 at 2:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
 I would get the same woofer but in a 10 or 8 and use the same CD. Does Erich have something like that?

Eric probably has some of everything laying around, from the sound of it! 

 

But the designs are using the DE-250 clone, the Denovo DNA-350, the DNA-360, which is superior (more treble extension?). And the DNA-205, which is a clone of the B&C DE-10, I believe.

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post #657 of 690
1/15/13 at 4:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Surrounds are usually much closer and require less power to reach the same 105 dB peak for reference so sensitivity can be off some for surrounds. I would worry more about timbre matching the woofers. Was that the basic model eD? what were the drivers used again? Selenium CD(same as sho-10) and which eminence woofer? I would get the same woofer but in a 10 or 8 and use the same CD. Does Erich have something like that?

I never thought of it that manner regarding the sensitivity of the surrounds.

Now when you say "timbre match the woofer" are you referring to the CD or the woofer? I only ask because to me it sounds like you mean the woofer but I thought timbre matching really has to do with the high frequencies and not the low ones.

As far as my speakers go two of mine are the standard version (selenium CD I guess) and my center channel has the upgraded CD (DE250 I guess).

As far as the woofer. Have no clue what one they used or even where to find if anyone ever figured out what driver they used. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought matching up the woofer was not as important as the CD.
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post #658 of 690
1/15/13 at 4:54pm
The woofer will handle more vocals than the CD. The big 2 inch CD's handle the vocals more. The DNA 360 and 350 already match the DE-250.
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post #659 of 690
1/15/13 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Just now there was some discussion of the big brother to that speaker, the 8340, here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417596/differences-between-dna-360-dna-350/0_100#post_22814686 . You should ask them about the dirt cheap pricing in a PM. Vertical uniform directivity down is important for surrounds because their vertical response affects the seats left-right axis.
Very intesreting! I have been looking for rear for a Klipsch Heritage system and this could be it. The Klipsch Cinema line (KPT) surrounds have embedded X-Curve EQ. These do as well but they can bypass it!
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post #660 of 690
1/15/13 at 6:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The woofer will handle more vocals than the CD. The big 2 inch CD's handle the vocals more. The DNA 360 and 350 already match the DE-250.

Hmmm, I may have to some digging to see if I can figure out which driver was used in the standard eD's. I remember hearing about the Eminence driver somewhere, but not sure if that was in regards to the eD's or not.
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