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List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers - Page 26

post #751 of 820
I agree with that but I am talking about people who have speakers capable and watch at MV 0 dBs and still say it is much louder than a theater because it is with many processors. I have experienced 5 that I can watch at MV 0. I mean that it te same volume as my loud IMAX.
post #752 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yes it was me. All I am saying is that people think their MV 0 equates to 105 dBs peaks and it does not, depending on source, how many speakers playing etc.. So when I hear people say that reference is too loud it might be because what they think is reference(105 dBs peaks) is really 110 dBs peaks with just speakers. I do believe commercial theaters setup to max out at 105 dBs peaks so to get an idea is run one of your loudest sounding movies and measure so that their peaks are at 105 dBs from one speaker and I bet the MV will be less than 0 dB. Now your setup will be just as loud as the theater and not louder. That is all. Again I am just saying people tend to think 105 dBs peaks are the loudest when they are at reference and this is not the case, it is louder on many movies.

Hi MK, please be assured that it wasn't you I was referring to in my statement above (post #741) about reference being incorrectly defined by some as being specific playback SPL's. (Although you are a well-respected member! smile.gif )

Ironically, the member I was referring to is usually a stickler for correctness. You may recognise this:
Quote:
Can I fix that for you please... . . . It is important that we use the terminology correctly so as not to cause confusion.

wink.gif
post #753 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Westlake Tower 12







Finally, I've added this beautiful speaker, but I don't know pricing for it. 
I believe Westlake Studios have a division that makes studio speakers?

http://www.westlakeaudio.com/Speakers/Hi_Fi_Series/tower-12.html

Two 12" woofers.
38Hz extension, which is surprising considering the 97db sensitivity.

But, wait...the sensitivity is reported as 1m/2.83v, and it's a 4 ohm speaker, so I normalize the sensitivity down 3dB so it ends up in the mid-high range of 94db groundplane. 

Another example of the compromises that must be made in designing speakers. They wanted these to work for mixing music, without a sub, so they sacrificed some sensitivity. These look awesome and deserve display!

it is indeed breathtakingly beatifull but at around 50,000 euro's they should be, westlake seems way overpriced but offers the diy market itcy fingers... simple design with great results. I never really knew what that 2,83v means, but i can attest as my uncle has some bbsm's 15 that westlake in general need way more power then their sensitivity ratings would suggest. that being said, i would be happy to live with these...
post #754 of 820
Great effort, could you explain why the wattage figures for 105dB peaks are double than from the online SPL calculator linked?

e.g. 99dB speaker at 12ft and 105dB peaks in your calculator is 106W, online SPL calc says 53W.

Watts is watts, no? If you were converting to an RMS figure to pick a power amplifier you would, I think, go the other way. If the amp is rated 100W with a sine wave (3dB crest) then it is 200W peak. So going with the online calc it's 53W peak, or selecting a suitable amplifier using published RMS figures, 26.5W.
post #755 of 820
post #756 of 820
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post

Great effort, could you explain why the wattage figures for 105dB peaks are double than from the online SPL calculator linked?

e.g. 99dB speaker at 12ft and 105dB peaks in your calculator is 106W, online SPL calc says 53W.

Watts is watts, no? If you were converting to an RMS figure to pick a power amplifier you would, I think, go the other way. If the amp is rated 100W with a sine wave (3dB crest) then it is 200W peak. So going with the online calc it's 53W peak, or selecting a suitable amplifier using published RMS figures, 26.5W.

 

The calculations are in the spreadsheet, so I think as a public person you can see them. 

 

Which particular speaker are you using as your example? 

 

This project is kind of a mashup of a few different concepts:

  • Sales literature of the speakers (power handling, sensitivity, nominal ohms, etc.)
  • We know that the trustworthiness of such numbers can vary wildly. It's good to own a salt mine.
  • Based upon the manufacturers' own published info, what should the speaker in theory be able to do? 
  • Mix in some anecdotal info from reviews or tests if their sensitivity was wrong.
  • Normalize based on whether sensitivity is reported with 1w or 2.83v for 4ohm speakers.
  • Adjust sensitivity if there's evidence the manufacturer is reporting anechoic, or in-room, or in a corner, or two speakers at once (yes, I've seen this a couple times!).

 

I used to emphasize anechoic much more heavily, but then Wayne Parham talked about how speakers are measured as groundplane. And I decided to use in-room levels as it matched more often with what manufacturers publish and what people would get in real rooms.

 

So, short of me goofing up something with the latest 1.8 version (which is possible, so I'm glad you're pointing out a potential problem), it's part shopping tool, part educational tool. But admittedly limited.

 

At the moment, my brain is hurting and I can't remember how I was equating with the SPL calc: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html where one can choose near a wall or away from walls. 

post #757 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

The calculations are in the spreadsheet, so I think as a public person you can see them. 

Which particular speaker are you using as your example? 

This project is kind of a mashup of a few different concepts:
  • Sales literature of the speakers (power handling, sensitivity, nominal ohms, etc.)
  • We know that the trustworthiness of such numbers can vary wildly. It's good to own a salt mine.
  • Based upon the manufacturers' own published info, what should the speaker in theory be able to do? 
  • Mix in some anecdotal info from reviews or tests if their sensitivity was wrong.
  • Normalize based on whether sensitivity is reported with 1w or 2.83v for 4ohm speakers.
  • Adjust sensitivity if there's evidence the manufacturer is reporting anechoic, or in-room, or in a corner, or two speakers at once (yes, I've seen this a couple times!).

I used to emphasize anechoic much more heavily, but then Wayne Parham talked about how speakers are measured as groundplane. And I decided to use in-room levels as it matched more often with what manufacturers publish and what people would get in real rooms.

So, short of me goofing up something with the latest 1.8 version (which is possible, so I'm glad you're pointing out a potential problem), it's part shopping tool, part educational tool. But admittedly limited.

At the moment, my brain is hurting and I can't remember how I was equating with the SPL calc: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
 where one can choose near a wall or away from walls. 

Maybe it is a mistake, I am not sure. Take the Klipsch Heresy III for example, on pg 1 of the thread in a screenshot it is listed as 99dB sensitivity with 53W required, yet on the current spreadsheet it's down as 106W required for reference...
post #758 of 820
Man I love Those IMAX speakers! Too expensive though. I could imagine the build I would do with $8000. Nah, I would just make bigger arrays with what I have now except have melded ribbons! Done and done!
post #759 of 820
Any thoughts on the error Eyleron?
post #760 of 820
Hey Eyleron, thanks for all your hard work!
I now have klipsch cf-4'sfor my bedroom theater, could you add them to your list? I'd like to see how they stack up
http://www.klipsch.com/cf-4
post #761 of 820
Thread Starter 

I think judging by "two 12-inch woofers", and the fact that it uses a horn-loaded compression driver, it would stack up well.

 

However, seeing the -3db point of the frequency response being 35 Hz, I'm doubtful that the speaker is sensitive as one would be led to believe (102dB).

 

For instance, this commercial speaker: http://www.klipsch.com/ki-262 granted it only has one 12" woofer...but still, also with 102dB sensitivity, it only reaches to 77 Hz. Adding a second woofer isn't going to extend down to subwoofer range.

post #762 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

However, seeing the -3db point of the frequency response being 35 Hz, I'm doubtful that the speaker is sensitive as one would be led to believe (102dB).
+1. You can get 102dB sensitivity, or you can get -3dB at 35Hz, but from a 2x12 bass reflex cab you can't have both.
post #763 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. You can get 102dB sensitivity, or you can get -3dB at 35Hz, but from a 2x12 bass reflex cab you can't have both.
I understand what you're saying, so what do you think the actual sensitivity should be? I'm trying to match up a couple of monoblock amplifiers with these and knowing the TRUE sensitivity would be a huge help to pick the right amplifier.
post #764 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post

I understand what you're saying, so what do you think the actual sensitivity should be?
Between 90 and 95dB.
post #765 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Between 90 and 95dB.
With that knowledge I will then make sure not to skimp on amplification! Thank you!
post #766 of 820
Yes, thanks! Bill, do you think the ratings for the Heritage speakers are accurate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by superedge88 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Between 90 and 95dB.
With that knowledge I will then make sure not to skimp on amplification! Thank you!
post #767 of 820
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by they'lledge88" url="/t/1387083/list-of-reference-level-high-sensitivity-spl-speakers/750#post_23574462" 
With that knowledge I will then make sure not to skimp on amplification! Thank you!

Then, the problem becomes, "Can the speakers handle the watts I'm sending them?"
Figure that they'll audibly distort sooner (like one-tenth) than what they advertise as the power handling, which is in fact where the speakers melt or otherwise die.
post #768 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Figure that they'll audibly distort sooner (like one-tenth) than what they advertise as the power handling.
I wouldn't be that conservative, but I also wouldn't count on any speaker being able to work at more than half its rated power before distortion is excessive.
post #769 of 820
I wish more companies presented data like this:
http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neumann-kh/home_en.nsf/root/prof-monitoring_studio-monitors_midfield-monitors_O410#

K+H is well regarded for pro studio monitors, btw. The O410 is an active monitor. The bottom graph is especially relevant for this thread, showing the max volume, by frequency, at 1% thd, and 3% thd:



EDIT: I see now that the O410 is actually on the OP's list.

suggestion to the OP: add the Meyer X-10
Edited by syswei - 7/29/13 at 6:26pm
post #770 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei View Post

I wish more companies presented data like this:
http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neumann-kh/home_en.nsf/root/prof-monitoring_studio-monitors_midfield-monitors_O410#
+1. Those who do so feel that they have no reason to hide test data. That raises the question of what motivates companies to not provide what Neumann does.
post #771 of 820
Hey guys - I've been reading this thread and fairly new to all this. I'm in the process of buying some HT/Music equipment. Can you tell me if the following speakers would be worth considering for both HT and Music? I got these off the spreadsheet and was wondering if they fit my situation at home. Basically, I am purchasing for two rooms in my house. One would be a family room and eventually, the other would be for a real HT (yet to build). These would be for the family room. My one condition is that they look nice for family room (WAF) and can do both HT and Music.

This thread has been the most helpful to me since it summed up some speakers I should be looking right off the bat. However, being that I am new at this I don't really know what every number means on this sheet. Only that darker blue is alot better than red. =)

Crystal Acoustics THX® Ultra2 Certified Special Edition TX-T3
Axiom Audio M50
Crystal Acoustics TX-T2 SE THX ULTRA2 Certified Floor-Standing
JBL Studio L890
Paradigm Monitor 11 Series 7
Aperion Audio Versus Grand

My original thread is here if some of you are interested in helping a guy out =). http://www.avsforum.com/t/1481225/speaker-recommendation-for-ht-music#post_23555281

Thank you.
post #772 of 820
nebula:

I can help you only with the Axiom M50 as that is the brand that I own.

The M50 is like a super duper M3 but in tower form. I use the M3 daily and like it very much - good room filling sound in a relatively small package. The M50 would be more of everything that the M3 is I guess.

The M50 is overlooked by most Axiom tower buyers as they tend to go for the M60, albeit at a higher price. Those that have the 50 seem to like them tho...

TAM
post #773 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

nebula:

I can help you only with the Axiom M50 as that is the brand that I own.

The M50 is like a super duper M3 but in tower form. I use the M3 daily and like it very much - good room filling sound in a relatively small package. The M50 would be more of everything that the M3 is I guess.

The M50 is overlooked by most Axiom tower buyers as they tend to go for the M60, albeit at a higher price. Those that have the 50 seem to like them tho...

TAM

Thanks for you input ex-labdriver. If that is the case with the M60, can I ask why it did not make it onto list? I maybe missing something so help me understand.
post #774 of 820
I have no idea....

TAM
post #775 of 820
Thread Starter 

Two reasons, both related:
 

  1. I don't add every speaker model even from manufacturers I do look at.
     
  2. From an output standpoint, it's the same as the M50. For the extra ~$300 of difference for a pair, you get to extend 2 Hz deeper (40 versus 42), and for a given amp wattage output, it'll produce 1dB less output. 

 

I probably didn't see the point of adding it at the time, once I had one representative floorstander from Axiom (and the best one for SPL at that).

They do what a lot of floorstanders do: they cost more to gain more low frequency extension, which is fine if you're looking to run without a sub.

It doesn't appeal to me for higher output when using a sub.

 

I've added the Axiom M60 to the list. 

post #776 of 820
Thanks for the reply. I can see why you did not really bother the first time. Diminishing returns.
post #777 of 820
Thread Starter 

As you you might tell, I get a little frustrated by companies that have a very full line up of models. But they can't make one model that...

  • Handle the power of a typical ~100w receiver and its brief spikes of power on peaks. 
  • This is the speaker for people with subwoofers. I hear they're quite popular! rolleyes.gif It doesn't need to extend to 30 or 40 or 60 hz. For the price point, 80 hz to 100 hz is fine.
  • Dare to be different and rely on educating the customer. Show them what they're getting, instead of "our speaker is better...look how it extends (not really) into subwoofer terrirtory!"
  • $200-$300.
  • Thus, drivers for more sensitivity and less extension. A true 95 db would be great. This might mean at least an 8" woofer. And maybe a tweeter/ribbon in a lens if not a horn? 

 

It takes economy of scale to hit that price, but I don't know why the bigger manufacturers don't do that.

post #778 of 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

As you you might tell, I get a little frustrated by companies that have a very full line up of models. But they can't make one model that...
  • Handle the power of a typical ~100w receiver and its brief spikes of power on peaks. 
  • This is the speaker for people with subwoofers. I hear they're quite popular! rolleyes.gif  It doesn't need to extend to 30 or 40 or 60 hz. For the price point, 80 hz to 100 hz is fine.
  • Dare to be different and rely on educating the customer. Show them what they're getting, instead of "our speaker is better...look how it extends (not really) into subwoofer terrirtory!"
  • $200-$300.
  • Thus, drivers for more sensitivity and less extension. A true 95 db would be great. This might mean at least an 8" woofer. And maybe a tweeter/ribbon in a lens if not a horn? 

It takes economy of scale to hit that price, but I don't know why the bigger manufacturers don't do that.
Because they wouldn't sell. The average consumer has no clue that a speaker that's designed to give the best result with subs is supposed to sound thin without them, and if they listened to them in a typical Best Buy showroom without subs they would pass.
post #779 of 820
Thread Starter 
i agree about Best Buy. But how about someone like Paradigm? They're sold through their dealer network. They could educate the customer, using audio , video, posters, brochures, explanations. "Look, when dey shop for dem Packers players, dey don't pick da same qualities in a wide receiver as in da defensive line, ya know? You bet dey don't!"

If Bose can brainwash as they have, anything is possible! wink.gif
post #780 of 820
Hey Eyleron what is the explanation for the mismatch between your calculated amp power figures and those on the calculator you refer to on pg 1?
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