Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 2

Originally Posted by carp

I didn't look at any other person's post other than Stitch's first few lines where he says the same thing. I figured that was a good idea and I stopped reading right then so I wouldn't be biased at all.

First off, I wore ear plugs for every single second of every single demo so I feel I scored the subs pretty tough because of that and maybe you should take my impressions with a grain of salt because of that, I don't know. These are the earplugs I wore.

http://www.amazon.com/Etymotic-Resea...6632908&sr=8-1

Call me a wimp, but I'm so glad I wore these the whole time because I have tinnitus and my ears are doing just fine right now.

Ok, here is how I scored:

1 = anything from ok to pretty good, not a ton of pants flapping/bass hitting body feel or pressurization.
2 = very good tactile feel/pants flapping/pressurization/whatever you get the point.
3 = involuntary smile.

That may be a silly and ridiculous way to score, I don't know but that's what I decided right off the bat with the Klipsch subs so I stuck with it and was consistent as best I could be for the rest of the day.

I don't have my sheet right now, and I don't see them here anywhere yet (I didn't want to look to closely and accidentally read others specific impressions) so this will be very short until I see my sheet to help jog my memory.

I liked most of the subs. I thought 2 of them (other than the Klipsch) were not on the same level as the rest with 1 sub in particular (sub D) being the obvious weak link. I hope it was sub D, I think I scored it around 30 points? Watch this be the Captivator pair which I own and love....

My favorite for music was sub C. I have a feeling this was the Submersive pair just because the Submersive was my favorite for music at the last GTG. This sub was the best on the WOTW scene IMO.

I think the Captivators were the subs that I wrote down my 3rd favorite for music. I'm not positive which letter of sub they were, but I believe they were the 3rd from the last and I do remember scoring them at 40 points total. This sub also did very well on movies, I gave it a 3 on 2 different clips, I believe it was How to Train Your Dragon and the Incredible Hulk fight scene. That was more 3's than I gave any other sub for movies, the only other 3 for movies was sub C on the WOTW scene.

I thought most of the subs sounded far more similar than different. From the blind tests, if I had to pick a sub to own I would say C first, and then either the sub I picked 2nd for music or 3rd for music (I wrote this down on the sheet up in the music section). However, after hearing the Orbit Shifter let loose at the end of the night I think we should have tried to find the limits of every single sub. What I mean is, after the blind testing and the Orbit Shifter was cranked up it put EVERYTHING to shame from the blind testing.... including the Orbit Shifter from the blind tests. I think if all the subs were allowed to be played really loud and hot I would have had a much better idea for which sub I liked best. Granted everyone would have had to wear ear plugs if we did this for every sub, but I'm telling you - the difference between hearing those Orbit Shifters and the blind tests was night and day. I know terms like that are thrown around a lot here and I'm probably guilty of it myself, but it wasn't close. Hearing the Orbit Shifter no holds barred really was like hearing car audio bass in a house. IT WAS CRAZY. I think I heard Archaea say the db's were in the 130's at the BACK of the room? I don't know if he was just guessing or not, but that number wouldn't surprise me. It was way louder in the front of the room.

Anyway, I know my Captivator is no where near able to put out that kind of bass. But I would have liked to hear the comparison, as well as the comparison from some of the other heavy hitters. All of them would have come up way short of the OS, but it would have been great to compare.

That said, I was dead tired and took off earlier than most, so maybe some of that went on after I left I don't know. Thanks Jonathon for hosting, it was great especially the last part with the Orbit Shifter crushing all of us. I'm a bit worried for the guys who didn't put in ear plugs or cover their ears during that part!

I'll post more later after I see my sheet and am able to recall more info.

Edit. I'll clean this up after seeing my sheet, after reading some other responses, mine looks like an unorganized garbled mess. Without my sheet I'm having a tough time remembering what was what.

Ok, I have my sheet now this really helps jog my memory.

Klipsch: These did better than I thought they would however on music they were pretty bloaty sounding and on movies there wasn't much extension. Nice impact on some scenes, worth their cost I would say.

Sub A: Now were talking. Much better than the Klipsh. The music clips were much clearer and punchier and the bass didn't linger. One of the best subs of the day.

Sub B: Not as good. Other than the Klipsch and sub D, this was my least favorite. Not bad on music but didn't seem as tight.

Sub C: My favorite on music and awesome for movies too.

Sub D: I didn't like this sub very much. Music was boring not much impact with movies.

Sub E: 2nd best for music, liked this sub a lot too.

Sub F: 3rd best for music, maybe the best for movies along with sub C I think this is the Caps Pro

Sub G: Solid sub, I was beat by this time and can't remember much specifics.


Sub A: Sealed Cap
Sub B: HSU
Sub C: Submersive
Sub D: DIY
Sub E: Orbit Shifter
Sub F: Captivator Pro's
Sub G: CHT

Originally Posted by desertdome

I arrived at Archaea's house at about 9pm on Friday night. HuskerOmaha and I were the first ones there. We unloaded the dual opposed MFW-15 subs and started doing some arranging and discussing the GTG with Archaea. After about a half hour Tesseract and Kwarny arrived. We unloaded the Chase subs and soon afterwards Jeff of JTR and his friend arrived with the Orbit Shifters and Cap sealed. The Orbit Shifters were huge and we were anxious to set them up and listen. I think we probably spent an hour listening to some intense bass with peaks over 130 dB. No matter how much we pushed them, they never complained. Once the 20 amp breaker was tripped that the subs were plugged into. There was also stuff falling off a cabinet upstairs!

After Jeff and his friend left for their hotel, we set up the Chase subs. Tesseract wanted to use Archaea's new Behringer NU3000DSP. Archaea has an Omnimic so we used that to get a handle on the frequency response. A few filters were added and saved in the amp since the Chase subs and the JTR Cap Pros were the only subs in the group that didn't have DSP or some EQ already built in to their amp solution. This was an attempt to make a few corrections before running Audyssey. I fell asleep in one of the home theater seats while they were testing and didn't wake up until they finished with stuff at 2 am! I ended up sleeping the rest of the night in the seat with it reclined. It was actually quite comfortable.

I awoke the next morning at 8:45 and got ready for the day. At about 9:30 we started listening to the Klipsch sub and ran through the music and movie playlist. I'm sure the process will be explained more by Archaea, so I'll go straight to my thoughts and the rankings.

It was a lot of fun listening to the subs and talking with the other guys between listening sessions. Jeff with JTR and Mark with Seaton Sound also spent time with us between listening sessions and discussed audio theories and other stuff. We also had fun watching the playoff games - especially the exciting finish to the Saint/49ers game.

We listened at a level of -10 dB and it was very comfortable for me all day. For the last two clips we would listen at -4 dB and that was okay for a short clip, but I couldn't listen to a whole movie at that level.

I've owned dual subs for several years and most recently have had dual MFW-15 Turbo subs. These are ported subs with custom Acoustic Elegance drivers and two modded Dayton SA1000 amps. They produce extremely clean, accurate bass with great dynamics. At the Omaha GTG they were among my favorites. I had listened to a lot of the clips with these subs and I was able to use them as sort of a baseline as I listened to the other subs.

I had heard all the subs prior to the listening session except the Hsu. The Orbit Shifter and Cap Sealed I had heard for the first time the night before, but didn't hear the Cap Sealed with very many clips. I felt familiar with most of the movie clips since we had used a lot of them for the Subfest 2011 GTG in Omaha back in October. I used the Bass I Love You, Black Hawk Down Irene, Hulk Cop Car and War of the Worlds Pod Emerging scenes to try to determine the lowest bass content in the subs. I noticed differences between all the subs and would have been happy with most of them in my own room.

I tried to be honest with the OK, Great, and Fantastic rating. I decided ahead of time that I wasn't going to reserve the Fantastic rating, but was going to give to where I felt it was deserved. I felt that my own subs performed Fantastic on many music and movies clips in my house, but lacked utmost depth and output. In other words, Fantastic wasn't some extreme that I hadn't experienced but was something I had experienced and could compare to. In looking back at these subs I see that I gave out over 50 Fantastic ratings. I truly feel that there really isn't much that could be improved on with these subs with the clips that were rated Fantastic. There may be a larger room somewhere that would drop some of these ratings, but for Archaea and his room I can't imagine any pair of subs at any price that would beat the subs I rated as Fantastic. Hearing the last sub, thought, made me realize that the other subs could be improved for movies and it is now my yardstick by which other subs will be measured for movies.

The testing was truly blind and at no time did I have any idea which subs where in use. Archaea and the rest of the setup crew did a great job keeping everything well hidden and disguised.

Here is my final ranking for the subs:

Music - B, G, F, E, C, A, Klipsch, D

Movies - G, B, F, E, C, A, Klipsch, D

Overall: B

I would put these into three groups with Group A being the best: B, G, F, & E in Group A. C & A in Group B. The Klipsch and D in Group C.

We used a 3 numbers for rating. 1 was ok, 2 was great, and 3 was fantastic. I will use these terms in my descriptions.

Klipsch - The Klipsch subs weren't very accurate and didn't have very good extention. They were ok with most movie clips with 4 clips I rated great. It wasn't fantastic on any clips.

Sub A - These subs were with Sub d and the Klipsch in not sounding very accurate. Many notes were smeared together and the music just didn't seem enjoyable. For movies they performed much better and I had many ok to great ratings with even 4 fantastic ratings. I indicated on my score sheet that it sounded the best with the Book of Eli, Drumline, Iron Man, and Matrix Revolution clips.

Sub B - These were my favorite subs overall. They were extremely accurate and dynamic. I really liked it for music and it performed well for most movies. It seemed like it didn't extend as deep and lacked output on the Black Hawk Down clip. Although the scoring is the same for music as G and similar to a few others, I felt these subs were were completely at a different level for music. The double bass in Diana Krall's Peel Me a Grape sounded the most real on these subs.

Sub C - This sub was more accurate that A. It extended deeper and had better dynamics with some of the movie clips. I thought it sounded quite good on music, but coming right after B it didn't sound as accurate. It had the most low output on Bass I Love you and was shaking the projector. This sub was the biggest inigma in that it performed fantastic with some clips, but was just ok with other clips. It seems like it has the potential to sound better with a little more setup or EQ. It sounded fantastic on Black Hawk Down, Master and Commander, Hulk Sonic Cannons, Book of Eli Gunfight, Iron Man Jericho, and U571. However, I rated it as just Ok for War of the Worlds. I thought it was lacking in the low bass on War of the Worlds. It was one of three subs (along with B and G) that had the best dynamics on the Book of Eli Gun Fight clip.

Sub D - This sub was my least favorite. At the levels we were listening at (-10dB) it was distorting the whole time. It wasn't very articulate and and lacked in dynamics. I think we had the levels to high for this sub or maybe Audyssey had done something. At any rate it hurt my ears from the beginning with the 100-20 Hz frequency descent clip.This was the first sub I thought was ported.

Sub E - This sub was the lowest scoring of group A. However, like the rest of group A it didn't receive a single "ok" vote from me. All my votes were "great" or "fantastic." It was very accurate, but seemed to lack some in the deepest portions of the clips. I gave it 17 great votes and 8 fantastic votes for movies. For music I scored it fantastic on accuracy, but felt it was a little below Sub B.

Sub F - This sub was a very close third behind B & G. On movies it was just 2 points behind Sub B. It lacked a little depth for music, but was very accurate and enjoyable to listen to. Any explosions on the movie clips were extremely quick, but didn't hit quite as hard as E or G. I'm not sure how to describe it, but the explosions seemed to have an immediacy or suddenness to them that almost startled me even though I had already heard the clips by now and knew what to expect.

Sub G - These subs actually scored the highest for me on movies, but I chose B as my favorite due to its music accuracy. Actually my music score tied with B on these subs and revealed a limitation in that the scoring for music didn't allow me to delineate the preference I had for B. These sounded different on movies than B (and all other subs) and seemed to have the greatest dynamics and variations in texture during the movie clips. It immersed me in the action more than any of the other subs. Every vibration, explosion, bang, thump, boom, or even the constant bass was beautifully rendered. This sub is the only one to receive all Fantastic scores from me for movies. I had given many other Fantastic ratings, but this sub was like going from 16 to 24 bit color. There was just more resolution.

One interesting thing I noticed during the listening sessions was that I smelled the drivers for both Sub C and Sub F. I noted this on my sheet that Archaea copied. I've smelled that with the Dual Opposed subs when getting a hard workout.This might have influenced my guesses for C & F.

Here are my guesses:
Sub A - CHT SS 18.1
Sub B - JTR Cap Sealed
Sub C - Dual Opposed MFW-15
Sub D - HSU VTF-15
Sub E - Orbit Shifter
Sub F - Submersive
Sub G - JTR Cap Pro

Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha

I can’t wait to eat crow.

Mmmmmmmm….crow tastes like I may have purchased my DIY stuff too…soon.

Guess I’ll know when Archaea posts the results and what the others say.

So, that was fun and kind of what I expected has and will happen: mass chaos.

I had no idea what I was voting for. Ported, Sealed, or was it the Orbit Shifter? Who the heck knows? I was trying to see if the lights were dimming or if I could hear amp noise (both of which, I think I saw at times) to try and determine if it was a JTR/Seaton with the 2400W amp, or the inuke with its noisy fans. That being said, even though I think I saw and heard those things, I am not modifying my guesses based on these tells.

Seriously, what an exercise in how bias plays a role, without the knowledge of which sub it is, your “confidence” in your “assessment” goes out the window. I only want to host or attend blind meets now if subs are being compared and not just for entertainment reasons. The way Jonathan organized and blinded people was very effective. A person with an AT screen theater and easy access would be the best..but this worked fine.

Oh man, I’m going to look silly, but lets get started I need to sleep.

We first listened to the Klipsch subs as a reference…unblinded. I thought they sounded good enough. I wish we would have listened to a couple of setups blinded to hear a few other setups and how the room sounded so I had a better reference of the variations, but it is what it is.

The music was scored for a potential of 12 points. The movies were a potential of 75 points.


Music/Movies Score (/)

Sub A: (8/42)

I wrote that I thought I could feel BHD on movies a bit. Someone said there is a 20hz and a 8hz? on speclab of this. I wonder if we ever felt the 8hz. I couldn’t feel anything on Vikings (Poop and Pipes from the Omaha GTG). Initially I thought maybe these were the Caps. I wrote tons of guesses through the night, but you can’t really finalize WHICH SUB you think it is until you have heard them all. Guessing seems futile.
I thought this sub was overall OK for movies. Nothing really wowed me, nothing sounded terrible. I was kidding on my sheet about chuffing. I didn’t hear any all night, but at the levels we were listening (115-120 Hz average?) in my seat…how could you. Bunk. I initially voted this as ported, but after hearing the rest, could be a lower sealed sub. The output didn’t appear to match that of several others, leading me to think of them as smaller drivers or less displacement per science. I’m sure I’m an idiot on this one.

Guesses (in order of my fake confidence): 1) HSU, 2) Cap Pro

Sub B: (12/51)

This thing dominated music. I really hope it isn’t the Cap Pros because I’m going to be the butt of jokes and feeling stupid for months until Archaea forgets I say this (he won’t). These were BY FAR the best to me for music. Destroyed the music. Perfect. Articulate. Fun. Of course I think they are sealed, because sealed subs are the BEST FOR MUSIC, right? Man, I hope I’m right on at least that. Did I mention these absolutely "beast mode" the music? The reason I feel these may be the caps or ported, was during the movie sections, I felt TONS of air movement by my legs. I felt these did pretty solid overall. There was a weird part of BHD where the bass cut out for a few seconds. I looked at Kwarny during it to my left and he noted it too. Amp issues? They were a little boomy at times, but overall very nice. I like these. What are they. Archaea is so mean.

Guesses: (IOOMFC): 1) Submersive HP, 2) Cap S

Sub C: (10/58)

I was really happy with these. I felt they had great depth (more output?) on music and were fun. Again, felt like a sealed sound during music. Music is really the thing I felt I could qualify differences on with all of the subs, the movies I was clutching in the dark for something. During movies, I have no f@#$#@ clue what was playing. I can’t figure out why. It had the highest output to this point on HTTYD, and the Hulk had the nice shock wave on the cop car scene where they launch into each other and break the marquee on the theater. Nice. Are these our DIY?

Guesses (IOOMFC): 1) Dual Opposed MFW-15

Sub D: (7/47)

These fared the lowest on the music to me. I felt their depth was the weakest, but otherwise they were smooth and had a nice sound to them. I say their depth was the worst, because they were the only ones I heard that made a weird sound on the 100-20Hz sine sweep. Around the bottom of the sweep, I heard a mechanical rattle. I thought it came from the sub(s), but maybe it came from something in the room…pretty sure it was the sub though. I thought they blended well with mains, I started getting annoyed with the subs being hotter than the mains in some clips/tracks (SEE DUBstep), but these didn’t overpower. These sounded like my CHTs I just sold in sound imaging……
For movies these were weird. I had a few clips where the sounded great, but also a handful that were just OK. These didn’t have as much output as all of the other setups except the Sub A and the Klipsch they topped to me in my spot. I’m basing my guesses here on my perceived lower output ability in Archaea’s room (vs my GTG).

Guesses (IOOMFC): 1) HSU or CHT

Sub E: (10/59)

This sub cranked in output. I’m sure it was the combination of following D’s lower output ability, and the fact this just had some great output. The music was solid, fun, but I thought these sounded a bit hollow on some tracks like my F-20s have sounded. Horn? I’m sure not because I’m a bad guesser. The 100-20 Hz sound wave was freaking intense. Maybe the loudest of the night. Where this really shined was the movie tracks. Output in spades. I kept thinking these were the Orbit Shifters and I might as well stick with that.

Guesses (IOOMFC): 1) Orbit Shifter, 2) Submersive HP

Sub F: (10/54)

I also enjoyed these subs on music. I thought they were the best blending of the night (a bit less output than others, comparable to D feeling?) so I felt they blended well. If that doesn’t make sense, well, Archaea asked for subjective comments. I think they are pointless after last night, but I’ll type random thoughts anyways.
I felt these were airy, solid, nothing bad but nothing really stood out. I haven’t been guessing ported or sealed have I for a while. Well, that is because I have no freaking idea at this point in the night. I just kept writing sealed or ported based on air movement at my legs. I know, totally bogus reasoning but besides music with B, I had nothing to go on. This <15hz and wanting sealed before the GTG, and now seeing that I can’t tell, may have me selling my Pi-18s and Clone amps if I see the results and decide to be rash. I need the DIYers to keep me keepin’ on!!!

Guesses (IOOMFC): 1) Cap Pro, 2) CHT

Sub G: (11/60)

Last sub of the night. Maybe we saved the best for last?!?!?!??!?
Music it was right behind B, the only difference in I felt B had more depth. Man, I really hope B isn’t the Cap Pros. Please. Please.
These things rocked. Great way to end the night.
I felt these were sealed. Man, I’m a basketcase.
These were my favorite on movies by a nose. I was digging what they were putting out. Good output, no faults I heard, many positives.

I changed a few of these from my sheet or added a 2nd possibility after Archaea scanned them immediately after the GTG. Archaea will yell at me for that. Whatever, he wasn’t blinded! This is hard to decide what I think.

So, what did I learn? Well, if all of my guesses are wrong, than either I should find another hobby, should have saved money to buy either G or B or E based on my observations, or build out my DIY stuff and see how it compares at a future GTG?

Guesses (IOOMFC): 1) Cap S



MUSIC RANKINGS:

1) B, 2) G, 3) C, E, F (no particular order), 6) A, 7) D

MOVIE RANKINGS:

1) G, 2) E, 3) C, 4) F, 5) B, 6) D 7) A


Why was B so much better with music in my book? I want to hear whatever those are blinded again against G, E, C. I think I’d take my favorite out of those and buy them. Maybe another GTG is needed. If I would have ranked B higher in movies my favorite overall would be easy, but since G was consistently awesome in my book, it is my overall favorite.

G is HuskerOmaha’s Anointed Winner.

(Please, please, please, please, don’t be the HSU or Cap Pros…if it is the Cap Pros I’m saying there was something fishy going on and there was a “home turf” advantage.) I put qualifiers everywhere in this writeup because Archaea has it out for me.


I hope people see this for what it was: an exercise in the exclusion of bias and the results. There is bias in many things. I work in pharmacy/pharmaceuticals. Amazing how much bias there is when you know what is there. I loved this exercise. I think people should attempt to do blind testing (if they are comparing subs and not just doing it for pure social fun).

There was tons of downtime, much more than the actual listening. I’m happy there was, I started getting listening fatigue after the 4th sub. I was sitting directly between the center and left speakers. Maybe with my speakers I wouldn’t have gotten it as early, because horns are better.

A few other things….those raving about the Orbit Shifters are right, prodigious output. I think these could do 10k cube rooms with ease. No way I would need 2 of these unless you really had to smooth out the room. RMK? must be deaf. The thing is, I wouldn’t say they “DESTROYED” all of the subs in attendance. Yeah, maybe they shook apart drivers and some peoples subs won’t work when they get home, but when you are playing at 130+ dbs, there aren’t any notes anymore. It is just insane loudness.
Don’t get me wrong, great subs. Look fantastic. I’ll find out where I ranked them, but they are fun. I don’t know how Archaea’s house isn’t more messed up than just unseated tiling.

Another thing, we were listening LOUD. About +15 db over the Omaha GTG. I think it was about 5 db too loud. The mains were overbearing after a while in the front row. I had to borrow some earplugs for that insane dubstep. If I host another GTG I would think we would do about 10 db less and push the subs up another 3 db or so and try that. I also had a head cold so that played into my ears hating life for the last 3 hours. But, I couldn’t leave my ear plugs in, I tried on the last two but lost the dynamics and everything sounded like I was under water….took the plugs out to grade accurately for all of you! Hahahaa.. Desertdome thought it was fine, but he was in the second row and is an old fogey. My ears are still young.

Anyways, this should be fun.

I think I could have most of these subs and probably be satisfied, if I wanted to be picky, I want the cheapest and smallest form factor option in this order….G, E, B, C.

I wish we had another day. I think many people got to find out what the subs were and got to talk in person about observations after finding out the results (these people had already done their posting, I was tired). I got left out. After hearing the results, I’m going to need phone numbers of everyone.

Much more random observations and thoughts to discuss on the Orbit Shifter, the “we weren’t playing to the subs limits or LOUD” thoughts, but I’m tired and want to go to bed. I don’t get government holidays off.

POST THE ANSWERS ARCHAEA, I DON’T CARE IF YOU ARE IN THE DOGHOUSE! You okayed the LOUD!

Originally Posted by kwarny

desertdome is done cheating until the next GTG.

My top choices
Music - B, F, G, who cares after this point.
Movies - For room filling - E, C
Movies - For the cleaner presentation - F & G. F had a slightly cleaner presentation but G had more extension especially with BHD. Next would be B since it sounded the best but struggled with the deep extenstion. Add two more of these and bring up the low end a little and it would be my top choice for movies too.

Sub A - I gave this mostly 1s and some 2s. I disliked this for music. It sounded inconsistent throughout the frequency range and somewhat bloated but much cleaner than the Klipsch. It was okay for movies but lacked the impact or tightness. I guessed ported. It sounded like the JTR Cap Pros from the Omaha GTG.

Sub B - I gave it mostly 2s and a few 1s. It sounded much better on music. It was much cleaner sounded but I wish it would of had a little less overhang on music. I enjoyed it for movies since it sounded cleaner and restored the missing impact I have not heard yet. The one flaw noted was the lack of extension and deep output. BHD was major downer. I guessed it was a sealed sub. It had a familiar sound to me also from the Omaha GTG.

Sub C - This sub was alright. It was somewhat bloated on music but the notes seemed louder. I would of rated it higher for movies due to the perceived extra output but the extra decay kind of killed it for me. It was the first sub to get 3s (hulk for fun, and BHD for extension). I guessed sealed. It also sounded familiar to me from the Omaha GTG.

Sub D - This was a downer. I hated it for music, especially repetitive beats or music with constant lines. Movies sounded better but it seemed some range of the frequency band missing. It sounded similar to Sub A but with less extension. I guessed horn first but changed it after the next round since I forgot there was another ported sub in the mix.

Sub E - This was another setup that disappointed me for music. From the start I thought it had more extension. I was actually surprised that I ended up enjoying these for the HT clips. For HT, every clip seemed mostly clean but with more impact than any other setup. There was still a slight bloat. I ended up guessing horn since I was so baffled.

Sub F - I enjoyed this setup for music and HT. It was probably my second favorite setup for music. It had a slight bloat compared to B. It was equally as good for HT but maybe missing some extension to E and G on BHD from (not much though). I guessed sealed. Compared to it E, the presentation seemed weaker but cleaner.

Sub G - This was another presentation I enjoyed. It seemed a little off with music but gets my third choice for music. It had a fairly clean presentation for the HT clips. It seemed that the extension was there with the best especially after BHD. I guessed sealed.

I'm guessing what I think each sub is for fun.

Sub A - JTR Cap Pro
Sub B - CHT SS 18.1
Sub C - Submersive
Sub D - HSU VTF-15
Sub E - Orbit Shifter
Sub F - Dual Opposed MFW-15
Sub G - Cap Sealed

Originally Posted by jedimastergrant

First off thanks to everyone who had a hand in putting on this production. It was a tremendous amount of work and is greatly appreciated. Both Mark and Jeff were fun to talk to in person and very knowledgeable.

My sub background is a Miller and Kreisel V-76 and my current Rythmik F12SE. I had never heard any of the subs in attendance. This meet was particularly interesting to me as I am in the market for a sub or subs. I love my Rythmik but I need more output for my 5000 cu ft space and I may just add more Rythmik’s, but this is a unique opportunity to find a solution that will put a smile on my face for quite some time.

I found the Klipsch subs to be lacking in bottom end, impact, and accuracy. I gave them 1’s across the board which translates to good. I would have given them a lower rating for a few of the tracks if one existed but it is a decent sub for the money. Duals of this sub are easily outperformed in every imaginable way by my current sub.

For all the blind subs I felt that there was no outright losers for music. Most people would be thrilled at the performance of any of them. But, there were some I liked better for extension and accuracy as reflected in my ratings.

I thought there was more separation when it came to the movie clips. I found it very difficult to remember how all of the subs handled the various scenes. Auditory memory is short and there was around 12 hours between the first and last subs so anyone basing a purchase decision on our subjective findings please keep that in mind. If I were you I would call Mark and Jeff and utilize their expertise for your needs. That is what I will be doing in part because it has already been pointed out how much EQ most likely effected our results. But here goes.

Ported vs Sealed. I have owned one of each and I prefer my sealed sub by no small margin. However, I really had no idea which of the subs were which at the playback levels we were using. I guessed the best I could based mostly on the extension I perceived. Never heard port noise per say but a few times I might have heard something to make me choose ported over sealed. Really splitting hairs here.

Sub A was a step up from the Klipsch in extension and every other characteristic especially for music, but I was not blown away at any point with the movie clips. I found myself hoping that there were much better subs in our future and that was indeed the case. I still felt it was a solid sub and I did not feel like it did anything wrong. Nor did I think any of the subs ever really put out a bad sound.

Sub B was a step up from A in extension and accuracy for music. I felt like I was finally able to hear what the music bass tracks really sound like with a great sub. An even bigger step up was how it handled the movie clips. At that point I was glad I had come. More output, extension, and more grins.

Sub C was the most distinct of the day for me. It sounded the most different and I am not sure if that was what made it my favorite but there you go. It had noticeably more output across everything which influenced me as well. It was really accurate and smooth with lots of output down to the bottom of the sweep that went down to 20 Hz. It had a very punchy feel to it and great dynamics. I felt as though I could hear more distinctly the individual bass notes. The output and shaking of pants and a bit of pressurization effect made it my favorite by a long shot for movies. Gunshots had a real pop to them. I could go on and on about this one. It is the sub I would have taken home had the subs identity been revealed to us after the tests.

Sub D was a huge let down compared to C. The lack of output was the most disparaging quality. It did nothing wrong but I did not find myself smiling. This may have more to do with the lower perceived output than anything else.

Sub E was very good overall and sounded the most similar to sub C for me. I liked it better for the movie clips than for music. Not writing a lot on this sub but don’t let that fool you because I enjoyed the heck out of it especially since it came up right after Sub D. I wrote fewer notes as the day went on even though I liked the last three subs very much.

Sub F was excellent for music and I almost rated it as high as sub C but changed my mind at the last second. That is how close some of these rankings are and many of the subs sounded similar to me near the end of the meet. Maybe I was starting to get a little bit of listening fatigue or was just tired. I liked these almost as much as Sub E for the movie clips so overall very good performance.

Sub G was one that I felt did not draw attention to itself at first but maybe I mean that in a good way. I thought it was good for music but lacked a little punch. Again, for some people you might want a sub that blends in very well and does not draw attention. As we moved on to the movie clips the sub really shined and I became more and more impressed with it. I simply loved this sub for movie clips and at this point it took quite a bit to get my attention after a full day of listening to very high quality subs. Great extension with lots of pant flapping capability.

It is difficult for me to come up with a final ranking so I will just say a few of my least favorite were A and D. I had a great time listening to B E F and G and it is too hard for me to rank them overall. My favorite was C and I just had a ton of fun with it. I am sure my rankings would change based on a different EQ and changes in playback levels that might exacerbate each subs weaknesses. I also wonder what I would prefer if listening to only one in a reasonably sized room. OK, now lets see the results so we can all look like fools and laugh at ourselves a bit!

A final note about the OS's at the end of the meet. I posted this in the OS thread as well. I have NEVER experienced bass of that intensity! It was felt as much as it was heard. It was like percussive therapy. There was an extremely intense pressurization effect at least for a house.

It was played back way hot so not even close to normal levels and I would have loved to hear just one OS at the same levels we listened to at the meet so I could get an idea what it would do in my 5000 cu ft space. I feel this is the only sub in attendance that has the output to use a single in my room. Everyone in the room was utterly shocked. Almost comical, nigh ridiculous, yes I said re ee donk u lous levels of insanity. What a blast. That demo had me doing measurements in my basement immediately when I arrived home in hopes of squeezing in just one of these beasts!

Here goes nothin'
Sub A- HSU
Sub B- Cap S
Sub C- OS or SubM
Sub D- DIY
Sub E- CHT
Sub F- Cap Pro
Sub G- OS or SubM
I will be shocked if I got even one right

Originally Posted by stitch1

Well I guess I should write some thoughts down before I forget any more then I probably already have. I'm pretty sure the orbit shifter killed a few of brain cells.

Where to start? Well I'll do a bref intro. Frist I would like to say that I had only heard one of these subs before today and it was only once. Also I really had never really researched any of these either as I am not to that point in my next theater build. I had read up on the HSU due to all the drama from when it was first getting reviews. Other then that I knew nothing of what to expect from these subs. Also to tell the truth I didn't even know what subs where going to be here. So I may be wrong on everything I say but I think that was the point of this exercise.

BTW I am writing this review before I read what anyone else as posted.

Time to start!

Klipsch: I didn't fully rate it and even if I did it would have been the lowest. Lets just say I found it to be a great upgrade to someone that doesn't own a sub or maybe has a htib. At the price that I have heard its at recently It could serve someone very well. But for me I wouldn't be interested.

Sub A: My score shows it to be smooth accurate lacking a bit in depth and was “great” for music.
I didn't love this sub. I may have even scored it a bit higher then I would have it it wasn't the 1st sub I heard. The only clip I gave it a fantastic was the john mayor song as I felt it represented the kick drum and bass guitar well. Again I think I may have over rated this sub at 41 overall. I do believe this is a sealed box.

Sub B: As I said I had only heard one of these subs before and I am 99.99% sure this was the sub I had heard. I am wiling to say this was one of my favorite subs of the night. It may not seem that way in my score. I would love to own a sub like this. It was smooth it was accurate and played deep with music. I gave it and overall score of 66. I really liked this sub so instead of gushing over it. I'll just tell you what I didn't like about it. I scored it ok on the John Mayor clip as it just didn't really sound that good to me. I felt the Skadoosh could have been better and I didn't think it handled black hawk down as well as it could have. Personal opinion I feel it was a fantastic sub. BTW I said it is Ported as it is.

Sub C: Nothing really jumped out at me about sub C. I didn't have any notes on it. I thought it was a pretty good sounding sealed sub that played both loud and deep. It was good with music but didn't wow me on the movie clips. I did give it some “fantastic” points as it did play these clips with authority. Overall it was pretty clean but it just sounded a bit different then what I would have liked. Again I think it was a sealed sub.

Sub D: Oh where to start on sub D? It seemed to have the least output of all the subs tested. But I really liked it for what it was. Where some subs wowed me with their output this one was completely different. We started each test off with a sweep I believe it was 100hz to 20hz. One of the two subs had what sounded like a port chuffing near the end of the sweep. Other then that everything in my mind was telling me this was a really good sealed sub. I was thinking it sub sounds fantastic on music. It was very dynamic. Again overall it was not as loud. Where some subs would just power through a clip this one could really play soft sounds as well as show some meat to its bones on the hotter tracks. I really think this is the HSU sub or a sealed that just didn't have as much power as the other amps. I honestly don't know what all amps were used so that could be the case. But for now I'm not only sticking with ported I am going out on a limb to claim it as an HSU even though I had never even seen an HSU product in person before.


Sub E: When I first heard this sub I really thought it was the orbit shifter and part of me still does. It was the first sub that really hit me in the chest. It sounded good with just about anything we through at it. I rated it second on the point system and Its pretty much a tie for my front 3 anyways. I do think this is either the OS or the Submersive but I could be completely wrong and I would be ok as long as I find out what it is.

Sub F: I don't want to bash a sub but if there was one I didn't care for it was sub F. Thats all I really want to say about it. I'm pretty sure it was sealed and I gave it a very low score of 37. Sorry if you are a fan/owner. From where I was sitting it just didn't do anything for me.

Sub G: Like Sub E it was a beast! I am not sure what had more output E or G but they both were fantastic at giving you that slam in the chest feeling. I was a bit confused when it came time to vote if it was ported or sealed as I really couldn't tell. It was very tight. It played really low but had excellent slam. I voted horn but the more I learned about what subs that were in attendance it got me thinking it was the Submersive.

If I had to rate them in order of personal preference I would have to say its a very close 123 with B,E,G not necessarily in that order. If I had to leave tonight with one I guess I would say G. This is completely based on the blind test. I would love to own any of these three.

Now for the fun of it I will post what I think each speaker is. Whahaha this could be very interesting.

Sub A= Chase

Sub B = Ported Cap Pro

Sub C = Sealed Cap Pro

Sub D = HSU

Sub E = 1st pick Orbit Shifter 2nd Submersive

Sub F = DIY

Sub G = 1st pick Submersive or Orbit Shifter

Originally Posted by thebuckaman

Well,

I am gleefully watching the Giants decimate the Packers (Bears Fan)and thought it is time to write my summary.

This was a neat experience for a first time blind shootout. I really had a difficult time with judging these subs since it was such a long day in total. I was really trying to remember what I had heard 6-7-8 hours ago. The blind portion plays with your mind. I did enjoy that we started the meet off with a non-blind audition of the klipsch subs to set a baseline. In hindsight, it may have also been nice to have a higher end sub (klipsch being the low end) that isn't being judged to give a kind of "curve" to start. Anyway...here we go.

Music- C,E(tied), G,B(tied), F, A, D, KLIPSCH
Movie- G, C, E-B(tied), F, A, D, KLIPSCH

Klipsch- Not a terrible subwoofer. If you have a HTIB or are looking to upgrade an old sub, might be a good choice for you.

Sub A- I thought this sub sounded ok for music and movies. It didn't seem to do anything special but sounded fine for most of the music movie clips. Going with HSU

Sub B- I liked this sub a lot. There was some very clean reinforcement filling the rooms. Nice, clean, and deep. SMOOTH-CLEAN. Going with Seaton

Sub C-More impact than B for me on movies. I liked it for music as well. Impact was nice. Guessing JTR Cap Pro

Sub D-Not a big fan of this one. Muddy, peaky, and not very impressive overall. I thought Skadoosh scene bottomed it. I'm guessing MFW dual opposed.

Sub E- Liked it for music a lot. Movies were also impressive and had good feel and impact but a bit subdued. Guessing Cap-S

Sub F- Seemed a little boomy in midbass but played well during music. Movies were also done well, just missing something I couldn't put my finger on. Guessing Chase subs

Sub G- Boom! These seemed to really do well on music and offered a good sounding bass drum on the John Mayer clip I noted. My favorite on movies. Good impact and really liked the Hulk sonic cannon scene. JTR OS is my guess.

Boy this could be embarrassing. Can't wait to see what they were! If I am way off on all of them, I am blaming Jonathan's cats for brushing my leg during demos making me think the subs were REALLY making my pants shake!

Originally Posted by wlelandj

Let me start off by giving a big thank you to Archea for putting this on. I met a lot of great people and learned a lot, as well as got an opportunity to hear some of the top subs in the business. Also, a big thanks to Jeff and Mark for their contributions towards lunch and how cool is it of them to participate?!!
As far as my previous sub listening history goes...not much. Currently I have an Onkyo THX HTIB and had Cambridge Soundworks 12's. Needless to say, this was a treat. So, without further adieu, the review. Oh, btw, I missed the start of the Klipsch demo so I'll reserve my judgement. I must say, however, that for the price, I was really impressed with it.

Music: C, F, B & E (tied), A &D (tied), G

Movies: C, B, E, F, G, D, A

Not up on all the audio lingo, but here goes...

Sub A: For music, while I found it smooth and accurate with good depth, it just seemed subdued hence the lower "fun" rating. It did well on the lower end of the spectrum, but thought it lacked punch higher up. (CapS?)

Sub B: I really liked this sub, very smooth and accurate, with excellent low freq. output. It was a really fun sub and in retrospect probably should have gotten a 3 in the "fun" factor rather than the 2 I gave. This sub was "great" down the board with some "fantastics". I think what kept it from being the top, was that, in my opinion, it was a bit too forward in the upper bass region. (Too much of a good thing?) This sub seemed to have a lot of headroom which is why I'm guessing OS? I could certainly see myself with this sub and, with it's headroom and some tweaking, would probably be all I would ever need barring winning the lotto and building an outrageously large HT. (OS)

Sub C: This was the gem for me. Tops across the board in music and many "fantastics" in movies. Hearing Sub B actually helped me grade this one. While it didn't have the output of Sub B, it had more than enough. Where Sub B was forward in the upper bass region Sub C was more balanced in my opinion. It was those improvements that helped push it to the top. (SubM?)

Sub D: This sub was smooth, with ok accuracy and good depth; a fun sub. It' s that lower accuracy that I think caused it to not rate as high in movies as some of the others. I just didn't feel I was getting the definition between the notes like I did with some of the others.

Sub E: Also a very nice sub, with a fitting overall rank of 3 in both music and movies. It had a similar sound to Sub C, but lacked the output. (DIY?)

Sub F: This was, to me, a musical sub, hence it's number 2 rating in that category. It's only draw back was it was a little light in the upper bass range. That lack of upper bass, however, helped it in some of the movie clips as it deemphasized some of the more over the top clips with a lot (too much) upper bass in their tracks. (CHT?)

Sub G: This sub sounded similar to Sub D, but with less output, which lowered the fun factor. Like sub D, I feel it's lower accuracy score hurt it in some of the movie clips with a lot of information going on at the same time.
(Hsu?)

Ok, Archea, can you tell me which subs were which now?! I'm dying to know just how wrong I got it and which subs were my top pick.