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Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 12

post #331 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

depending on timeframe I think I'd be game...I like your idea of letting each of the vendors set it up to their preference and then blind voting...

How far is the nearest commercial airport from your house?

1 hour. Even if they can't attend my room usually allows lots of extension and flat response with little EQ. I usually run 10 db's hot so everyone be warned! The bass will be intense. I have omnimic to measure.

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post #332 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

1 hour. Even if they can't attend my room usually allows lots of extension and flat response with little EQ. I usually run 10 db's hot so everyone be warned! The bass will be intense. I have omnimic to measure.

10 db's hot! Nice!

I knew I wasn't the only one.
post #333 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spur Darren View Post

This entire post is a waste of space. Craigs actions to me are that of a business owner trying to figure out what happened to cause his product to produce a noise they arent suppose to make. What would you do if you were in his shoes? Who are you calling minions? That, to me, speakes volume on the character of the person behind this post.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I appreciate the feedback on my comment. The minions I was referring to were the ones who almost immediately dismissed the shootout as a "waste" because of the CHT participant and the ones who agreed with that sentiment. If you fall within those parameters Spur Darren, then I am talking about you. This GTG was far from a "waste". It was wildly successful and it seems as though ALL participants preformed very well at the least. From what I gathered this was a comprehensive test of all facets of performance. It has been noted that some of the woofers sounded more integrated or seamless than others. Some had a flatter response while others played louder and/or deeper. This wasn't a DB Drag, it was a blind LISTENING test. I seriously doubt the iNuke had any ill-affect on the CHT subs quality of sound, although it appears the SPL may have been short changed. Louder doesn't always mean better. Once again I feel this was a huge success for those who put it on and those in attendance. I guess if you question my character because of what I wrote, I can sleep just fine with that on my conscience.
post #334 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I would never bring this out publically to incite more stress on an already frustrating issue, except they still refuse to be transparent. I've said in person to Tesseract and in PM to Craig that the more they continue to try to cast blame on 'everything but' the more it's going to bite them. I've said the same basic details in this post in less forward ways in other posts I've previously made - but their masking continues, and since it continues I'll be perfectly clear. I don't want this thread overrun with drama, but I do want transparency.

Please don't say I haven't been transparent. I have been as honest with you as possible. I have no problem with you posting my PM's to you, if you feel the need.

Quote:


As far as I can tell it only sounded 'bad' when compared to the higher classed products at the volume levels we auditioned them with on Saturday.

The only real difference of opinion I have with you is that the 18.1's cannot be driven to Xmech with 300-400 watts. I asked if you heard this sound when we ran the Berry in mono, you said you don't recall. I don't either. One Friday night participant has already stated that he did not hear bottoming in mono.

I have offered to bring my subs back to your home one day, we can experiment running stereo and mono with the Berry.

Quote:


Tesseract I'm sorry you're caught in the middle of all this. You seem like a cool guy, but I think you are getting screwed in this whole thing and it isn't right. I may easily be wrong, but I suspect you were in communication with Craig the entire weekend, and yet he blames you now for the whole thing, after blaming us for our process failed -- all of which I suspect (I admit I'm assuming) but I suspect he was aware of. I've said everything is repeatable - we know this - we did it three times. Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday.

I would never accept blame that is not mine. FWIW, I was not in touch with Craig except before I left my home, and after the 18.T demo.

Quote:


I told you and Craig both early on - it would be wise to just let it go, say the product is fine (which it is) but was outclassed by the big guns that are 5x's more expensive. (A Mercedes Benz will beat a Honda Accord in about every general category - but that doesn' mean a Honda Accord is a bad car). Instead it is continually perpetuated that 'if only this or that' we could have been more competitive and really placed a lot higher. It even continues now in his post saying the Submersive and the CHT product hit the same SPL and so must be somewhat equitable. That just isn't true, and it isn't transparent, and it isn't what these GTG's are about.

There will be other GTG's. I hope to bring four 18.T's and a monster DSP amp, or dual VS-18-1's.




Archaea, I had a lot of fun, learned a lot, and really appreciate the way I was treated in your home. Met some cool people and heard some cool gear. I have pictures to post if anyone is interested.
post #335 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Mk-really? That would be sweet to see/hear all of those. Isn't March pushing it? Why not fall? I could make fall but not spring...

I could probably make a Fall GTG.

I thought you mentioned having another GTG soon, Greg?
post #336 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I appreciate the feedback on my comment. The minions I was referring to were the ones who almost immediately dismissed the shootout as a "waste" because of the CHT participant and the ones who agreed with that sentiment. If you fall within those parameters Spur Darren, then I am talking about you. This GTG was far from a "waste". It was wildly successful and it seems as though ALL participants preformed very well at the least. From what I gathered this was a comprehensive test of all facets of performance. It has been noted that some of the woofers sounded more integrated or seamless than others. Some had a flatter response while others played louder and/or deeper. This wasn't a DB Drag, it was a blind LISTENING test. I seriously doubt the iNuke had any ill-affect on the CHT subs quality of sound, although it appears the SPL may have been short changed. Louder doesn't always mean better. Once again I feel this was a huge success for those who put it on and those in attendance. I guess if you question my character because of what I wrote, I can sleep just fine with that on my conscience.

I thought the GTG was great and more should be done, just to meet the people behind the keyboard and have a great time. The CHT sub needed more power so it would take more to make bad noises, however in that room I feel duals were not enough. They had the least displacement with no limiters so crap happens. Guys, once a sub makes bad noises the scores will be low, no matter what.
post #337 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post


I could probably make a Fall GTG.

I thought you mentioned having another GTG soon, Greg?

Thinking on it, or at least taking these diy subs to one in the area once they are done this summer.....
post #338 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I thought the GTG was great and more should be done, just to meet the people behind the keyboard and have a great time.

That is the coolest thing about these GTG's, meeting people and experiencing new gear.

Quote:


The CHT sub needed more power so it would take more to make bad noises, however in that room I feel duals were not enough. They had the least displacement with no limiters so crap happens. Guys, once a sub makes bad noises the scores will be low, no matter what.

This is it in a nutshell.
post #339 of 848
Funny how something such as a subwoofer thread can turn into the Real Housewives in about 2 seconds. I would love to attend one of these things...yeah, to hear good gear. But, like he said, you get to meet people who love this stuff as much if not more than you do yourself. Great way to learn. Maybe Craig hasn't handled himself so terrifically. So what...let it go and move on. We're all human here. Some of us deal with things better than others. There is no reason to keep trying to defend one side or the other. You all had a great time. Let It Be.
post #340 of 848
Curtis,

I think THE Show would be best.

How about start a separated thread for such?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Hmmm...how about a subwoofer comparison at one of these shows?
post #341 of 848
That should be fun

I might have something new by then to get out there too

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Thinking on it, or at least taking these diy subs to one in the area once they are done this summer.....
post #342 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnixMan View Post

Curtis,

I think THE Show would be best.

How about start a separated thread for such?

Good idea!
post #343 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

good idea!

+1
post #344 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandbagger View Post

That should be fun

I might have something new by then to get out there too

So just keep "demoing" this fine modded amp we have on loan?

I swear, measurements will happen sometime before summer!
post #345 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Guys, once a sub makes bad noises the scores will be low, no matter what.

Without looking back for exact details, didn't the Captivator Pro also suffer from the amp cutting out? It seemed to fair pretty well. I do agree with all ears intently listening, any preceived variation might cause scores to drop.
post #346 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

Naw, it's not new, he beat on a customer here a while ago.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1300617

That's one of the threads I read last night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post

Without looking back for exact details, didn't the Captivator Pro also suffer from the amp cutting out? It seemed to fair pretty well. I do agree with all ears intently listening, any preceived variation might cause scores to drop.

Shutting down is very different from clipping. My old receiver used to shut down (thermal protection) when I ran it hard, but it sounded great up to the point where it needed to protect itself. Watching the Echo Game scene on House of Flying Daggers used to do this every time!

Providing plenty of clean current up to the point where protection mode is engaged, can sound perfectly fine. However, an amp that clips while failing to produce enough power (into a high impedance load) to reach desired output levels can sound like complete garbage and it can damage drivers.
post #347 of 848
That Inuke amp is not looking very attractive after that GTG.
post #348 of 848
It's a shame that this CHT issue has derailed the best thread on the AVS sub forum in years.

It's a known fact Archea's room is extremely challenging. It's also obvious that 4 of the 6 other the subs demo'd with the CHT's are world class performers costing many times more. The sonic signature of the CHT's was likely negatively impacted even when not clipping/bottoming simply by straining to produce high SPL in that room.

These facts should not cause shame, anger, finger pointing, deletions, forum shutdowns, etc. That is far more damaging than finishing behind a group of world beaters in a different league with respect to price.
Tim
post #349 of 848
There were 4 elite subs and 3 modest subs. You don't see Mark Seaton complaining that his was the only elite sub to follow another elite sub while the other 3 got to follow modest subs.
As another poster noted when there was a potential issue with the sealed Cap did Jeff pull it amid a flurry of excuses? No, he said go with it.
What about the iNuke shutting down on the ported Cap. You don't hear Jeff or Archea complaining it affected the outcome of the movie portion.
CHT should take note, making excuses makes one look extremely lame.
post #350 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by capecodorthopod View Post

there were 4 elite subs and 3 modest subs. You don't see mark seaton complaining that his was the only elite sub to follow another elite sub while the other 3 got to follow modest subs.
As another poster noted when there was a potential issue with the sealed cap did jeff pull it amid a flurry of excuses? No, he said go with it.
What about the inuke shutting down on the ported cap. You don't hear jeff or archea complaining it affected the outcome of the movie portion.
Cht should take note, making excuses makes one look extremely lame.

+1. Everyone has an ego. It is up to them how they react when it is challenged or hurt. People who are confident in their product are not few and far between, but the folks who take a loss in a forum shootout and resort to accusations and finger pointing lose more than just the shoot-out. As usual, Jeff and Mark have proved to be extremely knowlegable, stand-up representations of what an ID company can/should be.
post #351 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Slayer doesn't have bass...You wanted to audition static noise...

In that case you should have been helping us setup and could have listened to pink noise throughout the day!

Perhaps it will help you when you see the DSP filters parametric EQ filters applied to the Cap pros. I cut out a LOT of the very stuff you love in attempt to try to make it flat...I'm sorry - was going to what we are all supposed to like! - as flat as possible... :P

so for you - there may be hope as you needn't worry about flat. Unplug that SMS-1 all together and see if you like that sound! :P If not sell the caps and buy your fav!


Look at these EQ settings in the DSP for the Cap Pros. I believe I may be responsible for your unhappiness.



One man's cut is another man's boost. Looking at the graphic of the EQ, relative to 70 hz you boosted the sub 40 Hz area quite a bit. 8 dB or so is a lot of boost in the infra area, and you need to have power behind you to do that.

If you also used Audyssey, then who knows what total EQ was applied in the sub 40 hz area signal.

What did the Inuk EQ look like for the CHT subwoofers?

Also, is the Inuk peak limiter adjustable (AKA OFF/ON)?
post #352 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I thought the GTG was great and more should be done, just to meet the people behind the keyboard and have a great time. The CHT sub needed more power so it would take more to make bad noises, however in that room I feel duals were not enough. They had the least displacement with no limiters so crap happens. Guys, once a sub makes bad noises the scores will be low, no matter what.



Playing around with a new amplifier selection (not a CHT offering) for a shootout does not help matters either. Does that Inuk amplifier have a selectable limiter (off/of) like a lot of other pro amplifiers do? Was it set to ON or OFF if it was adjustable?
post #353 of 848
The iNuke does have a peak limiter.
post #354 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Avarice_ View Post

The iNuke does have a peak limiter.

I know that. But is it adjustable (AKA OFF and ON) like a lot of other pro amplifiers or is it fixed? If so, was it set to ON.

I use an amplifier that has a fixed "soft clipping" (limiter) circuit.
post #355 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

What did the Inuk EQ look like for the CHT subwoofers?

That is in the same post as the iNuke EQ for the Cap Pro.
post #356 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I know that. But is it adjustable (AKA OFF and ON) like a lot of other pro amplifiers or is it fixed? If so, was it set to ON.

I use an amplifier that has a fixed "soft clipping" (limiter) circuit.

Adjustable:



Of course, only Archaea or one of those guys can tell you if it was engaged or not.
post #357 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

That is in the same post as the iNuke EQ for the Cap Pro.



I see that now. No Audyssey applied, similar infra boost and still there is a sub 20 Hz rolloff for a CHT subwoofer.

Audyssey can boost the infra area on an electrical basis quite a bit on it's own in an attempt to flatten the FR of the subwoofer.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post21457656





Passive subwoofers (like a CHT) need a lot of knowledge/time/prior experience to setup right (assuming the electronics is adequate for the job at hand).
post #358 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Avarice_ View Post

Adjustable:



Of course, only Archaea or one of those guys can tell you if it was engaged or not.



In the past I noticed that a lot of AVS'ers refuse to use the limiters of pro amplifiers for whatever subjective reason that they prefer to use!
post #359 of 848
Greg, we could have a GTG at my place (mn) this summer, however my basement is unfinished.
post #360 of 848
Thread Starter 
Limiters and HPF were not engaged for either Cap Pro nor for CHT 18.T products through the INuke. The only thing engaged for both subs were the parametric EQ settings exactly as shown in post #3. The screenprints you see are the exact dsp configs we used verbatium I had saved them prior to meet day (Cap Pro 15hz tune saved in December 2011, CHT Config created and saved Friday Jan 13, 2012) -- we simply loaded the config on meet day. I double and tripple checked the amp configs to make sure I had the right config loaded in both cases. Since there is still question what exactly audyssey might have done to the CHT products, I will post our retest information from Sunday now.

The most complete information I have on exactly what Audyssey did for the subs comes from Sunday's restest with Tesseract and Luke. Points of note - the room was different on meet day. We used 12 chairs to plot omnimic frequencies instead of one central location. We took Audyssey calibration from five positions on meet day (and a 'wider' bubble.), versus 3 positions in a narrower bubble for Sunday. The room was full of subs on meet day, but on sunday for this retest data it only had my Yamah CW218V subs (2x18"), the HSU subs (2x15"), my Captivator Pro subs (2x18") and a Infinity HPS 1000 sub in the room (3x15"). So maybe about half as many subs. The folding chairs and so forth used for the audition had been removed from the room by then and my berkline recliners replaced - which is where we did the measurements from. The subs were positioned in the exact same places for retesting however. The Audyssey calibration for both the Sunday test on the CHT subs and the HSU subs was taken from my normal seating arrangement's positions. We placed the primary Audyssey sweep data gathering on the arm reset in between the two primary center listening seats, and follwed up with the two centermost recliner seat positions at ear level (using a tripod) to get our 3 data point Audyssey runs completed for the retest. We mimicked the exact standardized volume and AVR configuration settings from the meet however for every retest. Those steps include adding +3dB to each sub output (or in the case of a single sub out utilized like the dayton - adding +6dB to the single sub out) (this has be done to account for my AVR's flavor of MultiEQ XT issue where both subs are calibrated by Audyssey to 75dB individually so if you are running two subs you'll be hotter in the room than just running one sub. Summarily Dayton got +6dB to one sub out to make it match levels while the Inuke got +3dB to 2 sub outs just like on meet day with all contenders --- we followed this course for the MFW-15 amp as well on meet day). We also changed crossovers to 100hz for mains and 120hz for sub, and we turned off Dynamic EQ for these tests --- just like we did on meet day.

Here are the timestamps of our testing.
CHT Retesting

HSU Retesting


To start we hooked up the Dayton amp and turned off everything Audyssey in the receiver, setup the the CHT subs in the same configuration used for the meet and saved a frequency response graph using the omnimic from the armrest between the two chairs in the main listening position. We ran the same test with the Dayton 25hz bass boost on and off. Here are those two graphs.


Then we ran Audyssey as described above and remeasured the frequency changes that Audyssey had applied. You'll see those two measurements here with the Dayton 25hz bass boost on and off. Ironically as you've seen now in two instances. The Dayton 25hz bass boost is not a 25hz bass boost at all - it just basically turns up all the bass - and appears at least on tesseracts amp to simpley be the equivalent of turning up the gain a bit. So here are the graphs for the Dayton and CHT 18.T with the Audyssey enabled and with and without the "25hz bass boost" applied.



When you put all the Dayton graphs together you see this

^ You'll also note that the graph between using the Dayton with bassboost and no Audyssey EQ is very similar to running the Datyon with no bass boost and Audyssey EQ. Turning on 25hz bassboost just seems to run everything a bit hotter.

We did some limited listening tests to the meet's demo clips with the Dayton amp after doing this setup and I agree we didn't hear any bad noises on the clips we tested for the short duration tested. However, the tactile bass was nearly competely gone in my room on the Dayton without the 4dB of boost at 20hz that the Inuke provided us, not tactile from the main listening positions which would be about the equivalent of the back row during our auditions.

-----------------

Here are the results for the Inuke.
Both graphs are with our DSP filter shown in the 3rd post applied. For one FR graph all Audyssey settings turned off, for the second graph, Audyssey was run over the top of the DSP, and then the standardized changes were made again post Audyssey. Keep in mind we ran the exact DSP settings on Sunday we ran for the meet. This just shows what Sunday's retesting of Audyssey did to those DSP settings. Again all standardized settings from the meet were followed for every single one of these retests. (Both sub outs were turned up +3 db, Audyssey Dynamic EQ turned off, and crossover points set to 100hz for mains and 120hz for subs). You'll note that Audyssey actually trimmed our 4dB bump at 20hz dsp parametric EQ down just a bit.


When the Inuke was hooked back up the bass was much more tactile and present but the 100hz -20hz clip began making the noise at the lower end of the spectrum again (no amp clipping), though bass I love you never made any bad noises and was very tactile. I think the sweep must be mixed hot. The most intense movie scenes we tested on the inuke did prove the amp was clipping and the sub was indeed making bad noises on Jericho missle and Skadoosh.

Finally here are all six graphs shown together. No adjustment of any sort has been made to these graphs. These are exactly as measured on Sunday, the exact same DSP was applied on Sunday as was applied on Saturday during the actual meet, as was created and tested on Friday night.



About the time Tesseract67 had to leave for the day, Luke came over. We did the exact same thing with his HSU subs and tested how Omnimic adjusted the frequency response for the HSU's as well. Here are the results with his HSU subs. The first measurement is with all Audyssey EQ off in my room. The second measurement is with the standardized meet settings applied after an Audyssey run. Remember - just like we did for the CHT subs, the Audyssey sweeps were only taken from 3 positions (armrest of two center recliners, and two center listening positions chairs), and the omnimic readings for the retest were taken from the first position (armchair) in every instance.



Following the HSU tests we ran some of the demo tests and heard no bad noises coming from the HSU subs from any demo material tested in our short duration including the 100hz to 20hz sine sweep which we tested several times on both CHT and HSU subs on Sunday.


Here is the final retest data comparison for the Audyssey settings used during the Sunday's Jan 15 retest for both the HSU VTF-15H pair and the CHT 18.T pair on the INuke DSP3000 (with the DSP applied used on meet day).




For what it's worth (anything?) here are the two configs as set by Audyssey in five wide positions and measured by omnimic avereaged inside the bubble for the 12 positions for the blind audition for meet day vs. the two configs as set by Audyssey in 3 narrow positions and measured by omnimic (at the intial audyssey calibrated position only) for Sunday's retest.

As mentioned keep in mind all the variables, room changes, average mic changes for both omnimic and Audyssey, etc
Meet Day FR vs Retest Day FR -
Gray for CHT and Black for HSU for meet day Jan 14
Red for CHT and Blue for HSU HSU for retest day on Jan 15
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012