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Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 14

post #391 of 735
1/20/12 at 11:25am
Thread Starter 
Flattest average frequency response was mfw-15 by far when averaged over 12 seats. That may be because it was the only setup run off a single sub out. Highest peak spl belonged to cap pros and orbit shifters. All three of these setups scored midpack.


I would have guessed flatest frequency response or highest spl would have been both attributes of the winners in a blind shootout. Neither were.

You are absolutely right. We do not know at what frequency the peak spl was measured.
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post #392 of 735
1/20/12 at 11:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

BTW, in that post at 377 (reposted from the beginning), so that was the "average" of the FR at 12 different locations?

Probably somewhere at the beginning of the thread, but do you have a chart which shows the frequency response of each sub at the same LP, with the same level used for the sweep?

Yes that is the 12 seat average. Unfortunately I didn't have the desire to capture and post 12 individual FR curves for each sub...one from each seat, and I didn't think about just grabbing the main listening position and the average. Two per sub would have been nice from the meet day (one average, one main listening position), but I don't have anything but the overall 12 seat averages. The averages are all recorded with the exact same settings employed. The same AVR level (-10), the same settings on everything. The variance you see is what Audyssey did to each of the setups in my room (averaged over the 12 seats).
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post #393 of 735
1/20/12 at 12:12pm
Thanks, would have been interesting to see the FR for each seat per sub, may have gleaned some more perspective of what people heard/felt and why they chose what they did. I did find some of the comments about the MFW-15 DIY option interesting, as if I recall many people said "great but something seemed lacking", then to find out it had the "flattest" frequency response was, or could have been, telling, depending on the other responses.

Seems odd that the levels in the FR varied as much as they did. I.e., just looking at the VTF-15 and comparing to the SubM, the SubM FR curve seems to be 4db hot across the entire range up to about where the slope from the 80hz cross takes over, but otherwise the lines appear almost identical. I'm not sure why that would be unless it has something to do with the averaging so was curious to see if at the same LP the levels were closer.

I'll have to go back to see how you guys did the test (have to admit I read the whole thread in about 5 minutes last night so didn't spend enough time on how you did it).

So really, you guys should just do the whole thing over again. :P

I'm curious, any of you have severe ringing after all the test tone playing?
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post #394 of 735
1/20/12 at 2:05pm
My ears were ringing a bit, not severely. Probably more from the Orbit Shifter, we cranked it up after all the testing was done, just for fun. Read through the thread, you will see we reached peaks of 134 dB @ 17 ft.
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post #395 of 735
1/20/12 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

You are absolutely right. We do not know at what frequency the peak spl was measured.

It's a pretty safe bet that max SPL was reached at FR between 60-100 Hz. I was watching the OM spectrum analyzer thought the testing, this is where most of the SPL content was, which is typical.
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post #396 of 735
1/20/12 at 2:12pm
I didn't have any ringing, but I had my ears plugged during the orbit shifter body massage.
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post #397 of 735
1/20/12 at 2:20pm
I'm not even sure the subs would cause ringing, but the mains sure were loud. Those Wharfedales can handle some power.

I have no idea how many Audyssey pings we sat through, but they were merely annoying, not harmful.
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post #398 of 735
1/21/12 at 10:21am
Damnit, why do I always find out about these types of things a week after they happen? Especially now that I am thinking of picking up sub or two. Looks like a fun time.
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post #399 of 735
1/21/12 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

You are absolutely right. We do not know at what frequency the peak spl was measured.

I don't know why you wouldn't know that. If you recorded what was playing when the SPL #s were recorded, it should be simple enough to match content with FR and calibration.

Sorry, but I can't find what source material was used in the demos. Can you please post that info or the link?

I noticed this in the calibration section:

Quote:


5) -- level matching was confirmed with omnimic and SPL meters to be the correct amount of gain added.

The posted average FRs don't jive with the use of an SPL meter or OM to confirm level matching.

As was mentioned in another context elsewhere, 2 of the subs have a very similar average FR. Although they are level matched at cross, there is a 5dB disparity in the SW trim levels. This is exactly akin to bumping the SW trim vs not bumping it.



Although these are average FRs, so are the total scores. In the case pf the CHT sub, it may be attributed to the subs steep roll off by 20 Hz, but in the case of the Hsu sub, whose native FR is already flat to 20 Hz, it makes little sense to blame the level disparity on anything but the level calibration method.

I also read this:

Quote:


Oh and in case you are wondering - the two subs with the highest peak SPL measurements were flat out middle of the pack in the frequency response graphs shown above (the JTR Cap Pro and the JTR Orbit Shifter) - so don't go thinking that the subs with the highest FR graph had the obvious advantage the whole time.

The FR graphs shown are average responses and so don't necessarily reflect the FRs at the meter position when the peak SPL #s were recorded, and, as I said above, we don't have the data to correlate the frequency content at the time of the readings. If you post the FRs at the meter position along with the source used to generate the peak dBSPL #s, then it's a simple matter to track down the content and match that to the FR and meter reading.

I will indeed predict that the highest SPL readings will correlate with the highest FR peak that correlates with the content.

The only certainty I can gather here is that the 2 subs with the most attenuated average level calibration scored the lowest and the 2 most bumped average level calibration scored the highest. All other subs scored in between those two places, as were their average level calibrations.

As far as the CHT stuff doing poorly as configured, well that comes under the 'don't sell subs that aren't properly configured' umbrella, and so that conversation will probably drone on forever, but the Hsu, I assume, is properly protected by limiters, etc., as it's AH-type review test results show. So, regarding the GTG results, I would certainly tend to suspect the level cal first and the overall output demanded vs the subs capabilities second with the actual sonic signature third as to what most influenced the scorers ears.

I'm just saying that decrees as to what onlookers like myself should go thinking should be avoided and getting to the bottom of the results is far more important and will be helpful to everyone.

Bosso
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post #400 of 735
1/21/12 at 11:49am
Thread Starter 
The SPL peak reading recorded by the omnimic over all content played on each sub for about 35 minutes was the max SPL given. It was reset per overall subwoofer setup audition, and not per track or individual demo source. I know the loudest dynamics were in the movies section, but I didn't pay near enough attention to the tracks to figure out which paticular movie scene had the hottest content. The highest SPL peak I saw on any sub during the music was 116-117 range. Then in the movies they opened up a couple to a few more dB on average.

I thank you for your input, but it would appear the JTR Caps and Orbit Shifter had higher dynamic peaks in SPL than the Cap S and the Submersive HP by the peak numbers recorded. Yet, they didn't place higher than the two sealed. Mark Seaton said I could probably find out the dyanmic peaks FR by trying to setup my room the same and recording from the 'control center location through the movie tracks - pin point the highest SPL measurement on my Caps (it should all match) then during that scene watching the FR points to find out where that peak is. Since I was using slow and c' weighting on the SPL meter that would mean the max SPL grabbed was probably 50hz and above right? I may play with trying to locate that exact detail at some point, but it seems like a lot of effort. I'm probably more curious to post a single round of the 12 seating position variance (capture a graph for all 12 seating positions (as best I can at this point)) using my JTR Caps to kinda show how people in the room may have been affected by variance in FR depending on boundary gains etc.

The track lists were as follows.
I will also update the first couple of posts with this info.

Music Track List - (-10 AVR MLV)
Here is a copy of the tracks (gone through some conversions unfortunately multiple MP3 files trimmed using MPTrim (These are what we auditioned) -> multiple clips combined using winamp nullsoft diskwriter to output a single wav file -> combined to single mp3 file using winamps 3rd party official lame mp3 writer plugin) - Despite the conversions - with this link you can listen to all the tracks we did to get an idea of the music.

http://kiwi6.com/file/vo80ks3b34

Realm of Excursion - 100hz to 20hz sine wave
Rockapella - Shambala
Dallas Wind Symphony - The Vikings
Jars of Clay Love Song for a Savior 08
Diana Krall - Peel Me a Grape
Pete Belasco - Deeper
Rascal Flatts - What Hurts the Most
Cake - Sad Songs and Waltzes
Van - Halen - Hot for Teacher
Counting Crows - Hanging Around
Creed - One
Linkin Park - Frgt
Janet Jackson - Go Deep
Michael Jackson - Thriller
Britney Spears - Breathe on Me
The Black Eyed Peas - Boom Boom Pow
Snoop Doggy Dog - Who Am I
Dr. Dre feat. Xzibit & Eminem - What's the Difference Between Me and You
Mia - Ghetto Superstar
Eminem - Business
Nelly - Country Grammar
Lil Jon & Eastside Boyz - Get Low
Petey Pablo - Freek-A-Leek
Kid Cudi - Day 'n Night
Deadmau5 - Ghost N Stuff
Flux Pavillion - Got 2 Know
Example - Kickstarts (Bar 9 Remix)
Bassotronics - Bass, I Love You

Movie Track List - (-10 AVR MLV)
Animusic - Last Track with the deep bass
BattleField LA - Ship Thrusters
Book of Eli - Town Square Gunfight
Dolby Digital - Canyon trailer
Dolby Digital - Rain trailer
Drumline - final faceoff
Flight of the Phoenix - initial crash scene
How to Train your Dragon - megadragon bursts through cliff
Hulk - Cop Car Smash - comes out of ground, shockwave, smashes car
Hulk - Sonic Cannon
Iron Man - Jericho Missle
John Mayor Song - Waiting for the World to Change
Kung Foo Panda - Skadoosh scene
Master and Commander - Cannons in ship battle
Matrix Revolutions - Architect voice
Red Cliff - Drum Beats during ship battle scene
Star Wars - Pod Race warmup
Terminator Salvataion - Robot destroys shed
THX - Amazing Life Trailer
Titan AE - Ice Field
Transformers 3 - Bumblebee Highway Flip
Tron Legacy - entering club scene
War of the Worlds - Pod emerges

Increased volume to -4 MLV (all other clips were listened to at -10MLV)
Black Hawk Down - Helicopter Rotor Subsonics
U-571 - Depth Charges

OPEN
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post #401 of 735
1/21/12 at 12:15pm
Not a single William Shatner or Paris Hilton song.
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post #402 of 735
1/21/12 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


The posted average FRs don't jive with the use of an SPL meter or OM to confirm level matching.

As was mentioned in another context elsewhere, 2 of the subs have a very similar average FR. Although they are level matched at cross, there is a 5dB disparity in the SW trim levels. This is exactly akin to bumping the SW trim vs not bumping it.

That's the part I don't get either per my post above. I don't see why the SubM and VTF-15 would have seemingly similar FR graphs from 20hz up, yet the VTF-15 is 4 to 5 db down across the entire range unless some subs were set much hotter than others? Unless it has something to do with the averaging method used and the subs aren't in fact 5db hotter at any individual seat (I don't know how Omnimic averages)?

Arch, did you save the FR's of the various subs which were used to post the averages? I.e., even if you took the same position for both the VTF-15 and SubM that might shed some light on what is going on. Seems odd that both the VTF-15H and CHT sub appear at very similar levels while the SubM and JTR (save the wide dip that shows in the JTR sub centered around 30hz) both appear to be averaging 5db higher on a FR sweep.
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post #403 of 735
1/21/12 at 12:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

That's the part I don't get either per my post above. I don't see why the SubM and VTF-15 would have seemingly similar FR graphs from 20hz up, yet the VTF-15 is 4 to 5 db down across the entire range unless some subs were set much hotter than others? Unless it has something to do with the averaging method used and the subs aren't in fact 5db hotter at any individual seat (I don't know how Omnimic averages)?

Arch, did you save the FR's of the various subs which were used to post the averages? I.e., even if you took the same position for both the VTF-15 and SubM that might shed some light on what is going on. Seems odd that both the VTF-15H and CHT sub appear at very similar levels while the SubM and JTR (save the wide dip that shows in the JTR sub centered around 30hz) both appear to be averaging 5db higher on a FR sweep.

I didn't save individual positions unfortunately. I just averaged across all 12 seats. We relied on Audyssey to level set everything db wise, but we spot checked a few times with the SPL meter and it was right on the money from the main listening position. The only thing I can figured is that if you give Audyssey a couple db to be "off" in either direction from the true average than you come up with the ~4dB variance that some of the subs encountered from top to bottom? I don't really know. Do keep in mind that with like an hour and a half + between each sub audition - 3dB variance or so is probably pretty much un-noticable.


It wasn't like the subs were a/b'ed with a switch immediately after the other.
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post #404 of 735
1/21/12 at 1:32pm
Audyssey was used to flatten the response (average over 12 seats) for each sub then all subs were played back at the same DB level correct?
ie -10 on your avr (or whatever number)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I didn't save individual positions unfortunately. I just averaged across all 12 seats. We relied on Audyssey to level set everything db wise, but we spot checked a few times with the SPL meter and it was right on the money from the main listening position. The only thing I can figured is that if you give Audyssey a couple db to be "off" in either direction from the true average than you come up with the ~4dB variance that some of the subs encountered from top to bottom? I don't really know. Do keep in mind that with like an hour and a half + between each sub audition - 3dB variance or so is probably pretty much un-noticable.


It wasn't like the subs were a/b'ed with a switch immediately after the other.
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post #405 of 735
1/21/12 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Not a single William Shatner or Paris Hilton song.

She sings? the only vid i've seen of her was were she was eating the mic, no singing involved.
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post #406 of 735
1/21/12 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I didn't save individual positions unfortunately. I just averaged across all 12 seats. We relied on Audyssey to level set everything db wise, but we spot checked a few times with the SPL meter and it was right on the money from the main listening position. The only thing I can figured is that if you give Audyssey a couple db to be "off" in either direction from the true average than you come up with the ~4dB variance that some of the subs encountered from top to bottom? I don't really know. Do keep in mind that with like an hour and a half + between each sub audition - 3dB variance or so is probably pretty much un-noticable.

Hmmmm ... haven't tried it, but I'd imagine if I ran scenes for a while on my sub, then after a bit ran the same scenes after setting the sub trim 3 to 5db higher, I'd probably prefer the "louder" sub.

Would be interesting to see how it coorrelates to the octaves a sub reproduces, but I've read that even a 1db difference can sway someone's preferences with say electronics or a speaker which is why blind tests are so difficult (one of the reasons anyhow).

BTW, not trying to discredit the work you guys did, just trying to understand what went on. I'd guess that the Cap and SubM would still end up 1 and 2, but if in fact they were 4 to 5 db hotter than the CHT and VTF-15H, that's a heck of an advantage there and likely just another reason they were consistently ranked 1 and 2.

Same reason the MFW-15 had many comments of "was one of the best" to "seemed to be lacking something". It appears to have been level set in the middle of the pack (above the CHT and VTF-15) and had the flattest response for some reason (probably why it "seemed to be lacking" at times as it didn't have any humps in its response that would give it that "something" compared to the subs that did.

I still love reading the comments trying to ascertain the ported from the sealed woofers. I recall doing the same thing with the JLF113/Velo DD18 vs the PB13 and Axiom EP-600. Felt like a moron at times.

Edit: Just updating for the last sentence. I did that blind test some 5 years ago, with my added knowledge since them I'm confident enough to say that if I did it again today I'd be able to guess the ported vs blind subwoofers with absolute accuracy 9 times out of 10, blind folded with both hands tied behind my back, an apple stuck in my mouth, and silicon plugs in my ears all while being subjected to chinese water torture. :P
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post #407 of 735
1/21/12 at 3:25pm
Wasn't the agreement and procedure to plug them in, gain level them per Audyssey, then run Audyssey and let them rip? It sounds like everyone understood and agreed in advance that there might be differences in what Audyssey did to the subs. Also, it seems like upping the levels on the CHT wouldn't have helped the amp with clipping or the sub bottoming--or whatever occurred--and the alternative is bringing the other subs down a notch and not pushing them close to their limits in what by all accounts is a very tough room, which would arguably further artificially limited their capabilities. (I don't know the answer to this, it's just a thought that occurred to me).

I am no scientist or sound engineer--just a guy who likes HT and finds this thread interesting--but this doesn't seem to me like it was meant to be a true scientific test or one that was completely "fair" in every sense of the word. Just fair in the sense that a bunch of guys plugged in their subs and followed the agreed procedures--procedures that were much like what many people would do when buying a sub--and then rate them blindly. There was talk about the process in public before it went down and outsiders had a chance in advance to comment on the process if they wanted to. I think one potential mistake is thinking that the GTG was something more than it really was. You can sit around and find ways to punch holes in the "fairness" of the process until the cows come home. Again, I'm no scientist and maybe I'm wrong, but the process was what it was and it didn't promise a 100% level playing field.

That said, I can certainly see why Audiohaulics had such a hard time getting sub manufacturers to participate in a sub shootout unless the equipment is price-matched. I personally wouldn't let my $1500-2000 subs walk into a room with a bunch of $5000 subs that are about to get pushed to their limits and expect them to come out without getting at least little beat up. I think the real surprise for me was how well the HSU did when compared to more expensive products. I also think its appropriate to explore what might have skewed the results and explain what happened to the CHT offering, because I don't think anyone should come to the conclusion from this one GTG that the CHT offering is a bad product. It was up against stiff competition and its simply one event which is a very small sample size.

In any event, I have enjoyed following the thread.
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post #408 of 735
1/21/12 at 5:01pm
I'm just intrigued as to why Audyssey would have varied as much as it did, actually curious to see what the FR looks like say out beyond the x-over point.

But just finally read the first thread in more detail and see the comments re: Audyssey/REW, etc. So I'll let it be!
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post #409 of 735
1/22/12 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

The SPL peak reading recorded by the omnimic over all content played on each sub for about 35 minutes was the max SPL given. It was reset per overall subwoofer setup audition, and not per track or individual demo source. I know the loudest dynamics were in the movies section, but I didn't pay near enough attention to the tracks to figure out which paticular movie scene had the hottest content.

Thanks. That's unfortunate.

Quote:


I thank you for your input, but it would appear the JTR Caps and Orbit Shifter had higher dynamic peaks in SPL than the Cap S and the Submersive HP by the peak numbers recorded. Yet, they didn't place higher than the two sealed.

Again, without the FR at the SPL meter (mic) position, peak readings won't tell us much of anything.

Quote:


Mark Seaton said I could probably find out the dyanmic peaks FR by trying to setup my room the same and recording from the 'control center location through the movie tracks - pin point the highest SPL measurement on my Caps (it should all match) then during that scene watching the FR points to find out where that peak is. Since I was using slow and c' weighting on the SPL meter that would mean the max SPL grabbed was probably 50hz and above right? I may play with trying to locate that exact detail at some point, but it seems like a lot of effort.

Yes, it's way too much effort after the fact for little return.

Quote:


I'm probably more curious to post a single round of the 12 seating position variance (capture a graph for all 12 seating positions (as best I can at this point)) using my JTR Caps to kinda show how people in the room may have been affected by variance in FR depending on boundary gains etc.

That would be appreciated. Still, my main thought is the disparity in level calibration. As I said, I understand why the CHT sub is down vs the SM because it's down considerably before the room and Audyssey vs all the other subs. But, I can't see how the Hsu ended up down -5dB from the SM. Same room, same placement, same Aud mic locations and same level calibration and it ends up 5dB off?

I agree with pbc. It doesn't matter how long a time expired between auditions, after a whole day of the same demo material in the same seat in the same room times [however many subs], 5dB level disparity is a huge difference. Many studies have shown listeners will invariably describe the louder presentation as better.

OTOH, the peak readings may reflect a sub with a huge peak in a narrow band, but a lower average level calibration and worse FR at half the seats. It would top the peak SPL list, but could easily score the lowest subjectively.

EDIT: Thanks for the demo list.

Bosso
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post #410 of 735
1/22/12 at 9:10am
I am looking at the Sub Showdown of 2012.. great stuff.. And thanks to everyone who made it happen.

As with most sub-showdowns, I think it's inherently unfair (my two cents), as price is not taken into consideration. I think most people will start out with a budget, and then ask the question:

- How much quality/spl/bass i can get from the $$ amount.

So, in view of that, I would really like to see future showdowns that take that into considerations.

For instance, an Orbit Shifter would cost $2000, but a HSU VTF 15 will only cost $875, so in a blind test, for $2000 budget, you would pit 2 VTF 15s vs a single Orbit Shifter. That I feel would be a far, fairer test.

Another example, for $5000, would you buy a single Danley DTS 20, or 5 ULS 15?? Now, I have only 2 ULS 15s, but I think 5 of them would be insanely loud and produce the highest of sub quality available on earth, because each ULS 15s for example is just so damn smooth!!! But that's just conjecture on my part, though.

But I do realize that it may be impossible for anyone to own so many units of each sub to test.. haha.. so, in the end, it may just be a pipe dream that any such test could ever be done, feasibly.... so, in the end, good job guys! Too bad, we'll never know for a given amount dollars, which is truly the winner!
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post #411 of 735
1/22/12 at 9:24am
Thread Starter 
The minimum match up criteria for this meet was just dual subs of everything auditioned. We had intended to have quad 18.1's from CHT, but one of the guys couldn't make it - so we just ran with duals. The comparison is interesting because for the most part the subs fell out in blind testing to be pretty much preferred in line with their price tags - bringing truth to the old addage "there is no free lunch". As to price equity -- Some people wouldn't want 4 or 8 boxes of the lesser models in their room to compete - others might. There are multiple more g2g's coming up - perhaps more equity in price can be evaluated in aother g2g.

Here is an interesting poll in this questin's regard -
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1388133

BTW - I'd still like to hear a ULS-15, but as to the smoothest on earth...anything can be made smooth with proper room eq and a DSP of some sort. My Captivators are flat as a pancake to port tuning in my normal room setup using the Inuke DSP and a 20hz tune on the caps. That's coming from a FR on a passive JTR Captivator that is anything but smooth.

After DSP settings you can see how flat the JTR Caps are There is no smoothing on this graph - captured with omnimic on the Captivator Pro pair from the main listening position using my Inuke DSP 3000 and the parametric EQ settings shown below. There is also a HPF filter in place at 20hz for this capture.


Here are my Parametric EQ, HPF, and amp settings on the INuke for this setting.
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post #412 of 735
1/22/12 at 9:42am
Archaea,

What does your measurement look like if taken with a 1-24th selected? Thanks.

James
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post #413 of 735
1/22/12 at 10:03am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

Archaea,

What does your measurement look like if taken with a 1-24th selected? Thanks.

James

here is 1/48th
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=504

I'll grab a 1/24th on the caps at 20hz tune today. (I'm back at 20hz tune right now (as I prefer it for music) which is what the above flat FR graphs were taken in.)
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post #414 of 735
1/22/12 at 10:09am
Archaea,

Just to make sure I am not missing anything, the 1-48th graph that you pointed to, was it actually measured at 1-48th? The reason I am asking is it appears to show the same information as the one taken with "none" for smoothing. Thanks again.

James
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post #415 of 735
1/22/12 at 10:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

Archaea,

Just to make sure I am not missing anything, the 1-48th graph that you pointed to, was it actually measured at 1-48th? The reason I am asking is it appears to show the same information as the one taken with "none" for smoothing. Thanks again.

James

Yeah, they are what I said they were. Notice the dB levels were recorded differently, and I didn't do an offset on them.

Here is 1/24th in my room I just grabbed it for you. There is a little variance from the prior tests graphs I took, but not a lot. I'm not 100% sure my recliners are in the exact same position on the floor, not 100% sure the mics in the exact same positoin, not 100% sure the subs are in the exact same position etc, but they are all pretty close. For the below I averaged 10 sweeps.



I guess as long as I'm doing this I could redo the furniture again and put the 12 chairs up as best I can to recreate the meet and grab the 12 omnimic positions from the various seaing areas, one for each seat. I don't have the manpower to get my berkline recliners out of the room as they have to be carried outside and they are too big and heavy for me to do by myself. I'm not sure if the big heavy leather recliners being in the room will affect anything on the omnimic graphs, nor do I have all the 20 some sub drivers in the room that we did for each of the meet day graphs - thus the whole thing may be for not...
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post #416 of 735
1/22/12 at 10:52am
Awesome job guys. This shootout convinced me to upgrade from an a2-300 to a SubM HP. It's on its way.

All of these subs are awesome, but all this detailed information really helps people decide what they are looking for, and what would be best for them and their budget. It helped me tremendously. I just wish I had enough money to buy equipment from all vendors involved. Maybe one day.
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post #417 of 735
1/22/12 at 11:21am
Archaea,

Thank you for the reply and information.

James
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post #418 of 735
1/22/12 at 1:53pm
Thread Starter 
Alright guys I just retested the Cap Pro pair using identical INuke DSP and AVR settings to the Jan 14th meet. I setup the 12 seats to the same approximate positions as best I could tell. I then ran Audyssey in the same manner we did for the blind meet, and followed the standardized procedure for meet day. (turned up each Sub out +3 dB, turned speaker crossover to 100hz for all mains (sub at 120hz), and then turned off Audyssey Dynamic EQ.

I then turned the level to -10 MLV and omnimic'ed all 12 seating positions (1 per seat) to come up with an overall average to compare with. You'll see the meet day 12 seat average vs. the retest 12 seat average immediately below.




Everything matches reasonably well except for the frequency response < 20hz. I can't explain it other than to say Audyssey may have boosted a bit down low for meet day? We had about 20 massive sub drivers all in the room absorbing energy on meet day. The chair positions would have been slightly different, (most of the tape was ripped up so I only have a few pieces that escaped attention during cleanup and ended up under my recliners that I could use to estimate placement by. Thus the mic positions would have been slightly different. The sub placement may have been slightly different ( a couple inches either way). I have four huge berkline recliner chairs sitting in my room immediately behind the back row of wooden chairs now for the retest that were not even in the room during the meet day graphs. Suffice to say the conditions are not exactly the same, but it gives us at least something to look at, and it's the best I can approximate to the blind meet day settings a week later without everyone bring back over their equipment and totally mimicking the exact room setup.

Here are the overall 12 seating position graphs overlaid - 10 averages - unique at each seat.



To make it more transparent what each auditioner was hearing from each seat here are the individual graphs gathered from each seat (10 captures averaged in same seat) vs. the 12 seat overall average(1 capture per seat). All of these FR graphs were grabbed today, and as noted above - won't reflect exactly what was heard at the meet, but is the best I can offer post meet and should be relatively close to what was heard on meet day especially above 20hz.


The average of the 12 seats is in green. Each seats unique frequency response graph (10 capture average) is in black.

Assuming this seating chart as provided by kwarny is accurate as to who sat where - here is approximately what each attendee heard in comparison to the average frequency response during the meet. (at least on the cap pair)

Seating Chart for Blind Voters - (gentlemen in parenthesis did not score by choice, or because they could only attend a partial day)

Front Row Seats 7-12 (L -> R)
Left Side - (Blaine), kwarny, HuskerOmaha, stitch1, WulfComp, Wlelandj - Right Side

Back Row Seats 1-6 (L -> R)
Left Side - (Scott), thebuckaman, desertdome, jedimastergrant, carp, (Bezlar) - Right Side

Seat 1 - Scott (Non Voter) (Back Row Far Left)


Seat 2 - thebuckaman


Seat 3 - desertdome (initial Audyssey calibration seat)


Seat 4 - jedimastergrant


Seat 5 - carp


Seat 6 - Bezlar (Non Voter)(Back Row Far Right)


Seat 7 - Blaine (Non Voter)(Front Row Far Left)


Seat 8 - kwarny


Seat 9 - HuskerOmaha


Seat 10 - Stitch1


Seat 11 - Wulfcomp


Seat 12 - Wlelandj (Front Row Far Right)




If you guys have any more questions please speak up today before I put everything back again. I don't think I'm willing to re-organize my room yet again for another retest. It's a lot of effort, and I'd rather just watch a movie or two with the time spent.

1/6 octave smoothing (omnimic default) was used for all of these tests in this post.
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post #419 of 735
1/22/12 at 2:08pm
Thanks again for going through the effort for us to review. Over and above after everything you did for the GTG IMO.
Tim
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post #420 of 735
1/22/12 at 2:37pm
Thread Starter 
Oh and a second test. Our Peak SPL measurements are reading about 5-7dB lower in the back of the room where all SPL measurements were captured for the meet.

I just setup one of my dubstep songs to play through - Gold Flux Pavilion - Got 2 Know. It recorded at 113.6dB at the main listening position up front. In the back of the room, near where the control center was it measured 107.9dB.
I tested another dubstep song - Apes from Space by Aaren San, it recorded as 107.4dB from the back of the room and 114.1dB from the front.

Keep that in mind when looking at max SPLs for each sub during our blind meet. The recorded peaks are all 5-7dB lower than what the main listening position was experiencing.

Meaning that the Orbit shifter fun was all the crazier.

AND according to this chart --- we were feeling what we were supposed to with the orbit shifter in the strong mid-high 130's (if not 5-7 dB hotter in the front of the room)...

http://www.makeitlouder.com/Decibel%20Level%20Chart.txt

After standing up next to the orbit shifters my skin felt somewhat tingly, my hair felt like it was standing on end etc, every piece of my clothing was vibrating etc.

This retested info lines up with several other past measurements I've taken in months past. The HVAC support beam across the ceiling and the extra distance take it's toll on the SPL.
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