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Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 17

post #481 of 848
Go with the form factor and price that makes the most sense for you. All pretty equivalent offerings.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #482 of 848
I noticed a lot of people who did the blind listening contest wer able to discern between a ported and sealed sub. If you switch from utilizing a sub in a sealed room to an open room, or vice versa, are you then to sell the sub(s) and get a ported/sealed sub to match the new room? That could get quite expensive.
post #483 of 848
Thread Starter 
Huh? The reverse was more true
post #484 of 848
Why is the beginning of this thread still showing only "Initial commentary," with no aggregated results OR commentary by sub?
post #485 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Why is the beginning of this thread still showing only "Initial commentary," with no aggregated results OR commentary by sub?

Because Archaea is a slacker and is spending his time rehashing random past DIY subjects like his quad-ottoman.
post #486 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

I have reviewed this thread a few times, as I have been considering getting a pair of Seaton Submersives. It seems like the Submersives did outstanding in music and really well in movies as well. My focus will primarily be on home theater, and it appears that the JTR Subs did tremendous in this blind testing.

It makes deciding on a subwoofer combo more difficult: Submersive vs. Cap Pro vs. Cap Sealed vs. Orbit Shifter

I still find it amazing that the smallest sub in physical size (Captivator S) scored the highest subjectively, with many of the participants guessing it was the Orbit Shifter!! If I were in the market for a new subwoofer, no question it would be the Captivator S (or S2).
post #487 of 848
I'd be curious to see how effective the limiter is on the INUKE3000DSP, when used with the dual opposed MFW15s. Has anyone reading this, tried it?
post #488 of 848
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Why is the beginning of this thread still showing only "Initial commentary," with no aggregated results OR commentary by sub?

I lost some motivation with all the drama involved in this meet behind the scenes. I'm having more fun listening to the subwoofer ottoman right now than I would updating the first post. I needed all that background drama like I needed as sharp stick in the eye. It really threw a damp blanket over my enthusiasm for this hobby. None the less you aren't the only person telling me to get it in gear... I guess I could try to jump back on the horse...

In other news --
HuskerOmaha you should buy my ottoman. I'm sure we could port it.
post #489 of 848
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I'm hearing chuffing already from the caps, and we are watching FRIENDS reruns. Unbelievable

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I can't believe that I was falling over myself in my love for B during the music.

Murphy's Law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I really had trouble keeping a straight face on the way home as you went on and on about how great B was! I kept having to say something funny just so I could laugh out loud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

S***. Of course the Cap Pros are B.

Makes sense, since I see my preference is a red P for music and S for movies? Seriously? WTF is going on here. Was my seat rigged?

I just gave Archaea endless ammo for the ages.....

At least my tiny s for movies preference saves me some slack. Since I don't do much music listening...

Hmm...continue the DIY build with the Pi18s and clone amps or sell those and get a pair of JTR Sealed Caps...

Decisions...decisions.

Maybe I should just go back to the F20s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Jeff was going on about 60 hours or so without much, if any, sleep and he was enjoying the irony in the scoresheets too (HuskerOmaha's mostly). At this point Husker was asleep hard on the couch upstairs. I made a joke to the fellows about writing "loves ported" on his forehead with a black permanent marker, and should have followed through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

HuskerOmaha -





For what it's worth my friend. You truly do owe me 20K for my old corvette worth half that much, and you owe me a steak dinner based on your absolute assurance, that sub B could NOT be the ported CAP. Don't you recall how just yesterday you grabbed me by both shoulders with un-nerving enthusiams and said sub B was absolutely the best sub for music bar none. I believe you said it was 4x's better than any of the other subs demoed for music and you HAD to know what sub it was, and it just COULDN'T be the Cap Pros or you didn't even know what you'd do. You were so sure it wasn't the cap pros that you'd pay me 20K for my corvette and buy me a steak dinner if it was. Was it Kwarny that was witness to this? Irony of all ironies -- the caps could have come in absolute dead last and if you picked them first for anything I would have smiled hard. You know what? ---You like ported best! I'll admit - during this little breakdown you had you almost made me crack right then and there and I nearly let the cat out of the bag --- but I played it cool as a cucumber. YOU! After bad mouthing ported subs for the last...um...six months that I've known you and leaving me tasteless voicemail after voicemail about how you could hear my ported cap chuffing all the way from Omaha. Do you recall penning the term "anti-ported" as your forum slogan for the last few months? What about all that talk about how 'it's all in the bandwidth baby', etc etc etc. Through all that charade --- You ended up being found out as a closet ported sub fan...and I knew it all along.

remember this?
I called it months ago!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=108

I'll never let you live this down! -- but hey we're still friends right? :P
Alright I'm done...



Just as a public service annoucement and friendly reminder - HuskerOmaha likes ported subs -- and he has for a long time.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=108
post #490 of 848
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminbass View Post

I'd be curious to see how effective the limiter is on the INUKE3000DSP, when used with the dual opposed MFW15s. Has anyone reading this, tried it?

I don't know - I've never used the clip limiter on my INuke DSP-3000, and for the record I didn't have it engaged for the CHT nor Cap Pro blind auditions.
post #491 of 848
Hmmmmm.
post #492 of 848
Thread Starter 
Nearly 2AM and the first four posts I made in this thread are all appropriately updated. Nube - unsatisfied readers have you to thank for prompting me to finish this whole thing up... At this point I think the thread is nearly a finished work from a first few posts perspective. If anything remains confusing let me know and I will take a look. I may make some edits tomorrow when I do another read.
post #493 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

In other news --
HuskerOmaha you should buy my ottoman. I'm sure we could port it.

He doesn't even have any subs right now in his theater (at least that is what he told me)! The F20's are in his garage and I picked up the dual opposed for a demo for a friend a couple weeks ago. My friend ended up buying some Hsu subs from me (he could hide them in his room easier) and I have the dual opposed in my Suburban. I offered to bring them back, but HuskerOmaha declined. I think he is secretly using a ported sub in his theater.
post #494 of 848
Thread Starter 
Hahahaha!

Carps on the sub hunt again. He's vulnerable right now...you may able to swoop in and lift those cap pro ported subs off him for a song to compliment that secret mystery ported pair you are auditioning now!
post #495 of 848
You should add the modified amp and use those

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

He doesn't even have any subs right now in his theater (at least that is what he told me)! The F20's are in his garage and I picked up the dual opposed for a demo for a friend a couple weeks ago. My friend ended up buying some Hsu subs from me (he could hide them in his room easier) and I have the dual opposed in my Suburban. I offered to bring them back, but HuskerOmaha declined. I think he is secretly using a ported sub in his theater.
post #496 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Nearly 2AM and the first four posts I made in this thread are all appropriately updated. Nube - unsatisfied readers have you to thank for prompting me to finish this whole thing up... At this point I think the thread is nearly a finished work from a first few posts perspective. If anything remains confusing let me know and I will take a look. I may make some edits tomorrow when I do another read.

Nice job. Thanks for all the work you put into this. You didn't have to credit me on the 2nd post, though, or anywhere, really. I actually did that aggregate in hopes it would save you the work of doing it yourself.

All this menial, time consuming, and excessively detail-oriented labor of organizing stuff could be completely distributed, lessening the burden on thread starters, if there was just a WIKI feature implemented at AVS. It's such a PITA to have to continually update the first post(s) when time, passion, or energy wane. It's even worse, though, to have to wade through hundreds and thousands of posts in order to find relevant info.
post #497 of 848
.........what monsters lurk in the garage?
LL
post #498 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinh View Post

.........what monsters lurk in the garage?

caps??
post #499 of 848
I'm guessing they're either new Submersive F2, or the Submersive XL. Though, I haven't been following the discussion too closely, so I'm probably completely off.

Edit: Nevermind. They're dual Orbit Shifters!
post #500 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

I'm guessing they're either new Submersive F2, or the Submersive XL. Though, I haven't been following the discussion too closely, so I'm probably completely off.

Edit: Nevermind. They're dual Orbit Shifters!

Bingo! I'm gonna break down the pallet later and see if I can get em in the house by myself......sheesh!
post #501 of 848
Hey guys I don't remember what was said but did any of you guys feel you could hear a difference on the low end stuff like BHD? I pick that scene because there is not much going on but very low stuff. I find it odd that the Cap was different for each allignment with a very similar driver. Were you guys really reaching for differences or were they more similar than different? In my experience many subs sound similar once the frequency is +/- 5 dB's with the same range and all can play the same level.
post #502 of 848
Thread Starter 
I for one didn't feel extra with the subsonics in black hawk down (in relation to other capable subwoofers that won't play so low like my Cap Pros ---- *yes I know at the meet the Cap Pros completely cut out during the audition of the BHD clip as the INuke power cycled - but the Inuke does better if not pushed so hard for so long and the EP4000 doesn't cut out quite as quickly, so I have heard that clip at the meet level volumes before on my caps and didn't hear anything noticeably different or improved with the sealed subs or horn on that scene -- I tried to sneak up during the blind auditions to the listening area during most of the blind demos on this scene to engage and listen for the magic).

At the end of the meet we had a play session and I asked Jeff to play the black hawk down clip again for me. I went up and stood touching the orbit shifters at reference level + volumes with the subs cranked hot and sensed none of the subsonic magic. I was hoping to finally experience the effect. I didn't on very capable Subwoofers --- so capable they cracked my tile grout upstairs, destroyed my brand new blu-ray drive in my computer that worked perfectly fine the night before and the morning off the meet, but failed when I tried it again at days end without use during the day. Other examples of these subs prowness during the meet were pictures and even a 2lb wooden camel vibrating off my TV cabinet upstairs. With this experience in mind--- for me personally - that subsonic benefit myth is busted.

Others may have different impressions. I may just be incapable of hearing/sensing the subsonics --- but I sure do like tactile subwoofers - so I would think if there was something magical there - I would have felt it and loved it!
post #503 of 848
Regarding the low end stuff. I thought that it was hard to tell the differences with the ultra low frequencies. There were differences in how each sub sounded with the ultra low stuff in BHD. I was also trying very hard to see if I could tell which of the subs was going lower because I thought it would help me in choosing which sub I was listening to and I was (and still am) looking to purchase one (or several).

Sometimes I thought I could tell that a sub was digging deeper but the differences between the subs in my opinion were in the sound quality more than anything. And also in the perceived loudness which I think influenced me. I think if I had more listening experience I would have been able to tell. I bet Jeff and Mark knew what was going on more than anyone else.

Based on what I heard at the meet if I were to give up something as far as low, loud, sound quality, even frequency response etc, I would definitely give up the ultra low frequency. With that said I am still looking at sealed for various reasons.

But now I see KevinH with dual OS's and I am having major envy! We need pics! and video even! Let us all live vicariously through you
post #504 of 848
Here is a graph of the relative maximum output levels during the Black Hawk Down clip used at the GTG. This is with all bass below 200 Hz from all channels routed to the sub. The output around 6-7 Hz only lasts for about 2 seconds during the entire clip. I watched the clip probably 20+ times before the GTG and knew exactly when the low bass occurred. I still couldn't tell a difference during the GTG from sub to sub except noticing the Cap Pros were missing output during the low bass portion. The differences were much more noticeable on the 18-19 Hz stuff on this clip.

I've also played the Bass I Love You clip on the MFW-15 dual opposed sealed subs with a steep low pass filter at 15 Hz. With the drivers looking like they are reaching full excursion on the 7 Hz notes, I can't tell that anything is going on even when sitting right next to the subs. Everything is silent with the low pass, but the drivers are working hard.
LL
post #505 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Here is a graph of the relative maximum output levels during the Black Hawk Down clip used at the GTG. This is with all bass below 200 Hz from all channels routed to the sub. The output around 6-7 Hz only lasts for about 2 seconds during the entire clip. I watched the clip probably 20+ times before the GTG and knew exactly when the low bass occurred. I still couldn't tell a difference during the GTG from sub to sub except noticing the Cap Pros were missing output during the low bass portion. The differences were much more noticeable on the 18-19 Hz stuff on this clip.

I've also played the Bass I Love You clip on the MFW-15 dual opposed sealed subs with a steep low pass filter at 15 Hz. With the drivers looking like they are reaching full excursion on the 7 Hz notes, I can't tell that anything is going on even when sitting right next to the subs. Everything is silent with the low pass, but the drivers are working hard.

Does anyone know how loud the subs were playing that 6 hz scene? The lower it goes the louder it needs to feel it. So you guys know how loud the subs can even play 6 hz? I bet not enough to feel it. That is the whole point to multiple sealed subs and power to feel the whole bandwidth with a flat response. The OS's are only more powerful than the others within the horn's tune, and after that it would be less than the CapS. Even with say 4 CapS or 4 submersives it still a different bass that happens. It is more pressure and feeling odd than feeling a bass wave hit you. It is more like a wobble sensation and it is slight.
post #506 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I don't know - I've never used the clip limiter on my INuke DSP-3000, and for the record I didn't have it engaged for the CHT nor Cap Pro blind auditions.

Clip limiter to me means something like what an EP has. What I was referring to was the DSP's ability to limit all signals above "X" level (compressor?)? I think it's capable of that but haven't heard much about people using it. This could be set at the threshold of bottoming for the drivers in use.

In an ideal world this would be frequency dependant but then I don't know of any systems that complex.

The Sandbagger unit has limiting which is calibrated to the MFWs, I am looking for similar in the INUKE (but adjustable), could be used for various drivers/cabs.
post #507 of 848
Thread Starter 
I think I'm still finding casualty's from jeff's orbit shifter at my house. Tonight I went to fire up a HD-DVD and my player was skipping like mad. It's always worked 100% perfectly. It's behaving the exact same way my PC's BluRay-RW rom did after the meet. This is the first time I've tried to play a HD-DVD since the meet.

Also - I am building a DIY projector screen and when I was finished stapling the material up we put it up and were checking for waves or artifacts and hot spotting. I was changing the background color and went to a white screen. The right side of the screen on a white background screen has a slight reddish tint and the left side a bluish tint. That was not like that when I first got the projector before the meet and it is only noticable on a white background so I hadn't run across it since the meet. It is easily visible and I would have run across it before had it been like that before the meet. I can't possibly guarantee either of these are related to the bass because over a month has passed since the meet - but I'd not be surprised - especially since two CD ROM type devices (my HD-DVD and my BluRay drives failed the day of the meet for the BluRay and the first time I tried it since the meet for the HD-DVD)

Keep this stuff in mind in addition to the other known damage (grout, pictures falling off, drywall loosing up etc) when you guys start pounding those orbit shifters!!! They are wicked beasts!
post #508 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I think I'm still finding casualty's from jeff's orbit shifter at my house. Tonight I went to fire up a HD-DVD and my player was skipping like mad. It's always worked 100% perfectly. It's behaving the exact same way my PC's BluRay-RW rom did after the meet. This is the first time I've tried to play a HD-DVD since the meet.

Also - I am building a DIY projector screen and when I was finished stapling the material up we put it up and were checking for waves or artifacts and hot spotting. I was changing the background color and went to a white screen. The right side of the screen on a white background screen has a slight reddish tint and the left side a bluish tint. That was not like that when I first got the projector before the meet and it is only noticable on a white background so I hadn't run across it since the meet. It is easily visible and I would have run across it before had it been like that before the meet. I can't possibly guarantee either of these are related to the bass because over a month has passed since the meet - but I'd not be surprised - especially since two CD ROM type devices (my HD-DVD and my BluRay drives failed the day of the meet for the BluRay and the first time I tried it since the meet for the HD-DVD)

Keep this stuff in mind in addition to the other known damage (grout, pictures falling off, drywall loosing up etc) when you guys start pounding those orbit shifters!!! They are wicked beasts!

I think Jeff very appropriately named them eh?
post #509 of 848
I wonder about structural damage to the house myself. Nothing visible yet, but I have the OS's sitting directly on the floor (carpet under). I have considered getting a few (two for each OS) Great Gramma isolation pads for the OS's to decrease the tactile shaking a bit. The will require me to lift the screen a few inches and re-work the front wall acoustic panels and that is just enough of a hassle that I haven't done this yet.

When I have the system "cranked" with the projector off and the lights on, the bass waves are visable on the AT screen (like dropping a rock in still pond) and the suspended floor (2nd story HT) shakes pretty violently.

The electronics are outside the room and no issues there ... yet

You may have just motivated me to get on that project. I'd kind of like to hear/feel how they sound de-coupled from the floor anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I think I'm still finding casualty's from jeff's orbit shifter at my house. Tonight I went to fire up a HD-DVD and my player was skipping like mad. It's always worked 100% perfectly. It's behaving the exact same way my PC's BluRay-RW rom did after the meet. This is the first time I've tried to play a HD-DVD since the meet.

Also - I am building a DIY projector screen and when I was finished stapling the material up we put it up and were checking for waves or artifacts and hot spotting. I was changing the background color and went to a white screen. The right side of the screen on a white background screen has a slight reddish tint and the left side a bluish tint. That was not like that when I first got the projector before the meet and it is only noticable on a white background so I hadn't run across it since the meet. It is easily visible and I would have run across it before had it been like that before the meet. I can't possibly guarantee either of these are related to the bass because over a month has passed since the meet - but I'd not be surprised - especially since two CD ROM type devices (my HD-DVD and my BluRay drives failed the day of the meet for the BluRay and the first time I tried it since the meet for the HD-DVD)

Keep this stuff in mind in addition to the other known damage (grout, pictures falling off, drywall loosing up etc) when you guys start pounding those orbit shifters!!! They are wicked beasts!
post #510 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I wonder about structural damage to the house myself. Nothing visible yet, but I have the OS's sitting directly on the floor (carpet under). I have considered getting a few (two for each OS) Great Gramma isolation pads for the OS's to decrease the tactile shaking a bit. The will require me to lift the screen a few inches and re-work the front wall acoustic panels and that is just enough of a hassle that I haven't done this yet.

When I have the system "cranked" with the projector off and the lights on, the bass waves are visable on the AT screen (like dropping a rock in still pond) and the suspended floor (2nd story HT) shakes pretty violently.

The electronics are outside the room and no issues there ... yet

You may have just motivated me to get on that project. I'd kind of like to hear/feel how they sound de-coupled from the floor anyway.

My wife always yells at me for breaking something. I keep replacing marble tiles in the main Bathroom because I crack them all the time. I tell her it is a good thing I pay all the bills.
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