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Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 20

post #571 of 848
How is this argument still happening? sheesh!

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #572 of 848
Because somebody WILL NOT just let it go.............cannot get beyond the GTG end results!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post


I tried really hard to have an honest discussion about this, and have offered to bring the subs back to your house to see if we could recreate this so called bottoming with the Behringer limiter ON, and then again running the Berry in MONO.

Let me ask this, do you think that it was fair to power each 18.1 with 312 watts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Anyone still want to say to the world with a straight face that 300 watts is too much for the Eminence 18" driver in question to handle?
post #573 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by polizzio View Post

Because somebody WILL NOT just let it go.............cannot get beyond the GTG end results!

Not true but post like these are why they don't go away.
post #574 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I find it difficult to understand why a manufacturer, when offered the conditions - graphs, musical selections, settings, etc. - would not take it upon himself to replicate them and instead prefer to dismiss the observations using words and hypotheticals?

That would be a reasonable approach and one that a reasonable person might consider ...
post #575 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

While I might have liked what I heard Friday night, you did not. Not even considering that the subs were under powered is why we are having this discussion.

I'm not sure why you think no one considered the subs were under powered. Here is a quote from early in the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


Now - as to movie clips - during some of the heaviest bass movie scenes with our Sunday testing the clip light was on solid. When the clip light is on and the subs are making a bad sound - it's anyone's guess. The aforementioned skadoosh scene being the worst offender that we demoed on Sunday. Bad noises/clipping/bottoming/whatever was indeed occurring during the skadoosh scene. Amp/Sub/Both? Fault - unknown, but the amp at least was out of headroom...

So take all of this in stride, but you can rest assurred the amp did drive to clipping on the skadoosh scene and potentially other movie scenes as the inuke amp apparently didn't have enough guts at 8ohm stereo to drive the subs at the levels demanded on the most heavy LFE scenes.

This is pretty clear to me that he is saying the inuke did reach its limits during some of the content. Should this invalidate the observations when the amp wasn't clipping? I guess one question that remains is if the clip light on the inuke can be trusted. Could the inuke have been clipping or distorting even if the clip light was off? What is also unknown is what would the results have been if the dayton or another higher powered amp was used?

-Mike
post #576 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

That would be a reasonable approach and one that a reasonable person might consider ...

Well, he had the amp tested(Same model anyways) and it does not deliver what he would want for his subs. I guess that is not enough for others but like I said before, it does not matter. The guys have heard a 18.2 and VS 18.1 workking within their limits and all said it sound very good so these not sounding good means something was off, that is all. I still don't expect them to win, never did, just that we are getting crazy here. I have dealt with many of the ID companies we hear about and they all treated me the same. These forums will make it sound like certain companies are out to get us or something. I have not experienced that at all.
post #577 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I find it difficult to understand why a manufacturer, when offered the conditions - graphs, musical selections, settings, etc. - would not take it upon himself to replicate them and instead prefer to dismiss the observations using words and hypotheticals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

That would be a reasonable approach and one that a reasonable person might consider ...

That is the approach any worthy engineer would take.

Replicate the problem, and then find the solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, he had the amp tested(Same model anyways) and it does not deliver what he would want for his subs. I guess that is not enough for others but like I said before, it does not matter. The guys have heard a 18.2 and VS 18.1 workking within their limits and all said it sound very good so these not sounding good means something was off, that is all. I still don't expect them to win, never did, just that we are getting crazy here. I have dealt with many of the ID companies we hear about and they all treated me the same. These forums will make it sound like certain companies are out to get us or something. I have not experienced that at all.

Who's idea was it to use the amp in the first place...and why?
post #578 of 848
I've seen a comment I had made being misconstrued more than a few times now.

I mentioned that scenes skadoosh in Kung Fu Panda and a few others tickled or found the limits of most every subwoofer there. Somehow this has been then attached to the readings Archea posted for maximum loudness from his microphone. The limits I mentioned were almost entirely VLF related, while the maximum loudness that Archea measured was almost certainly NOT at the lowest frequencies, and we don't even know the frequency response seen near the microphone location at "command central."

For at least 90% of the listening, the subs were well within their limits. After all the formal comparison was done, this was proved very clearly when we pushed the Orbit Shifters, the Cap S1's and the pair of SubMersive HP's much louder than we did during the meet. The "118dB" maximum number from the SubMersive HP's (and a few others) was simply what was observed during the listening, and (as Archea noted) is not the maximum capability in room of the SubMersive or any other sub in the comparison.
post #579 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post


That is the approach any worthy engineer would take.

Replicate the problem, and then find the solution.

Who's idea was it to use the amp in the first place...and why?

I never said whose fault it was because that is obvious, I have always said what the guys did was not wrong. Like I said the 18.2 performed great before but these did not with the same drivers, why? We know why and that is that.
post #580 of 848
Mk-none of this would have blown up like it has IF the treatment had been fair to both sides and instant blame wouldn't have been handed down. Both parties probably would have talked it out, figured out what had happened, said "that sucked, try better next time" and move on. Well, that didn't happen and it keeps being drug up again.

Just posted this on the CHT forum....

Quote:


So let me get this straight....

Mark Seaton just said on avsforum on the KC GTG thread that his comments are being misconstrued. His words. Please see that for clarification so everyone can drop what "Mark said".

Kwarny just said they listened to the material the night before at -10 as we did during the GTG.

Jonathan says that he never said anything to Craig via PM about the SPLs at the lowest frequencies. So, either we need proof or someone on either end is misremembering what the PM said. I'm sure both parties have copies.

How does it feel to have words put in your mouth? This is what I meant by my post at avsforum in the KC GTG thread replying to Tesseract. It goes both ways.

If the clipping function on the inuke was turned off, you aren't going to see any clipping lights, correct? Someone has mentioned this somewhere but I don't have the amp obviously to find out how that works/looks like.

How long is this theory and conjecture going to fly around?

The subs sounded pretty good other than the obvious sine wave bomb.
They were vetted at my house for my GTG. They did fine.

Archaea doesn't want to play word games, number games, watt games, mic games, sensitivity games. I doubt you guys will find closure on this KC GTG topic. None of us are ever going to find out the whats and ifs on this subject, short of everyone going back to Archaea's and recreating the event.....so who is game?

Won't end until everyone just moves on. The setup ended up being unfavorable, didn't perform as expected, and I'm sure it will be fine the next go 'round.
post #581 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, he had the amp tested(Same model anyways) and it does not deliver what he would want for his subs. I guess that is not enough for others but like I said before, it does not matter. The guys have heard a 18.2 and VS 18.1 workking within their limits and all said it sound very good so these not sounding good means something was off, that is all. I still don't expect them to win, never did, just that we are getting crazy here. I have dealt with many of the ID companies we hear about and they all treated me the same. These forums will make it sound like certain companies are out to get us or something. I have not experienced that at all.

Where can the results of the amp test be found including the conditions? You know, graphs, power, distortion, warm up periods, etc.

Also, is there any truth that the subs that were brought were the ones that JoshKo had returned? Although I don't believe he ever hooked them up and ran them he did make some observations about leaks and what not.
post #582 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post


Also, is there any truth that the subs that were brought were the ones that JoshKo had returned? Although I don't believe he ever hooked them up and ran them he did make some observations about leaks and what not.

Those were the same subs. Tesseract got them. I don't think there were any mods made after they were returned?
post #583 of 848
CC shows his character again. As soon his enormous assumptions about max SPL and maximum amplification were questioned, and Mark posted his "tickling limits" comment clarification, CC removes the thread from CHT's forum.

It's this kind of behavior that makes me question why anyone would buy a single product from a company like that.
post #584 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

If the clipping function on the inuke was turned off, you aren't going to see any clipping lights, correct? Someone has mentioned this somewhere but I don't have the amp obviously to find out how that works/looks like.

The limiting function was turned off and should have nothing to do with the clip lights.

It looks like your post and thread were just "archived" at CHT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Where can the results of the amp test be found including the conditions? You know, graphs, power, distortion, warm up periods, etc.

There is a Danish site that tested the iNuke 3000. After using Google Translate to read it, one can see how the amp was clipping during playback with the CHT subs.

Quote:


Also, is there any truth that the subs that were brought were the ones that JoshKo had returned? Although I don't believe he ever hooked them up and ran them he did make some observations about leaks and what not.

The subs at the meet were the ones JoshKo returned. You could even see the small chip in the corner of one. However, they didn't look nearly as bad as they were made out to be. They had no leaks or what not.
post #585 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

CC shows his character again. As soon his enormous assumptions about max SPL and maximum amplification were questioned, and Mark posted his "tickling limits" comment clarification, CC removes the thread from CHT's forum.

It's this kind of behavior that makes me question why anyone would buy a single product from a company like that.

I'm with you. I have thought long and hard about purchasing a pair of Chase SS18.1 subs and amp, but Craig Chase's lack of character prevent me from doing so. Its not Chase subwoofer performance which prevents me from purchasing, its Craig Chase himself. I was so close to trying them out but his history of locking, deleting threads, changing threads, of doing dishonest things prevents me. He even one time declared on the Chase forum he would donate like $4000 dollars to some charity because his behavior was so poor, that he was less than forthright about handling discussions and insulting people post Archaea's GTG. At one time, he hung tesseract out to dry for the GTG errors but later recanted that. These traits are the prevailing mentality on his forum. How can I purchase products from such an business owner? Where his word means little. And a large portion of his fanboy base condone his behavior, they make excuses for him.

Darrenspur deleted an entire Chase sub thread here at avs when it wasn't going like they wished. He was the originator of the thread. Couple days it was here, then it was gone. Parts of it are reposted at chase forums under the tutelage of Craig................wonder why?
post #586 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

CC shows his character again. As soon his enormous assumptions about max SPL and maximum amplification were questioned, and Mark posted his "tickling limits" comment clarification, CC removes the thread from CHT's forum.

It's this kind of behavior that makes me question why anyone would buy a single product from a company like that.

+1 Why does this all sound so familiar.........?
post #587 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

It looks like your post and thread were just "archived" at CHT.

Maybe he had to go referee a swim meet and just temporarily parked it.

Quote:


There is a Danish site that tested the iNuke 3000. After using Google Translate to read it, one can see how the amp was clipping during playback with the CHT subs.

Yes but MK said CC had it tested.

Quote:


The subs at the meet were the ones JoshKo returned. You could even see the small chip in the corner of one. However, they didn't look nearly as bad as they were made out to be. They had no leaks or what not.

I'm just wondering out loud if those subs in particular might have had an issue.
post #588 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by polizzio View Post

I'm with you. I have thought long and hard about purchasing a pair of Chase SS18.1 subs and amp, but Craig Chase's lack of character prevent me from doing so. Its not Chase subwoofer performance which prevents me from purchasing, its Craig Chase himself. I was so close to trying them out but his history of locking, deleting threads, changing threads, of doing dishonest things prevents me. He even one time declared on the Chase forum he would donate like $4000 dollars to some charity because his behavior was so poor, that he was less than forthright about handling discussions and insulting people post Archaea's GTG. At one time, he hung tesseract out to dry for the GTG errors but later recanted that. These traits are the prevailing mentality on his forum. How can I purchase products from such an business owner? Where his word means little. And a large portion of his fanboy base condone his behavior, they make excuses for him.

Darrenspur deleted an entire Chase sub thread here at avs when it wasn't going like they wished. He was the originator of the thread. Couple days it was here, then it was gone. Parts of it are reposted at chase forums under the tutelage of Craig................wonder why?


+1 ....... Deja vu all over again!
post #589 of 848
Or maybe his username was spurdarren.....I cannot recall exactly right now.

Spur Darren, just looked it up.
post #590 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I'm just wondering out loud if those subs in particular might have had an issue.

I doubt it. Tesseract's subs sound the same as HuskerOmaha's subs. At the Omaha GTG, Tesseract walked in during the CHT 18.2 and said he instantly recognized the sonic signature. HuskerOmaha was pretty sure Setup D was the CHT based on the sonic signature. After the Omaha GTG, I went to Tesseract's house and we listened to his duals and also my Rythmik. Tesseract's subs sounded about the same as at the Omaha GTG.
post #591 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

I've seen a comment I had made being misconstrued more than a few times now.

I mentioned that scenes skadoosh in Kung Fu Panda and a few others tickled or found the limits of most every subwoofer there. Somehow this has been then attached to the readings Archea posted for maximum loudness from his microphone. The limits I mentioned were almost entirely VLF related, while the maximum loudness that Archea measured was almost certainly NOT at the lowest frequencies, and we don't even know the frequency response seen near the microphone location at "command central."

For at least 90% of the listening, the subs were well within their limits. After all the formal comparison was done, this was proved very clearly when we pushed the Orbit Shifters, the Cap S1's and the pair of SubMersive HP's much louder than we did during the meet. The "118dB" maximum number from the SubMersive HP's (and a few others) was simply what was observed during the listening, and (as Archea noted) is not the maximum capability in room of the SubMersive or any other sub in the comparison.

So true, there is no way that most of the subs were pushed to their limits the vast majority of the time. In fact it's hard to believe that we ever hit 118, or 123, or anywhere close during the blind listening. I'm not saying it isn't true, it just seems like we weren't near that loud (says the guy that wore earplugs the whole time ).

Seriously though, I've experienced 120 db's in my room and the body impact/volume seemed way louder than the blind gtg and it can't all be the earplugs because I had them in for the "after party" spl craziness and that was the loudest bass I've ever heard/felt in my life outside of a car. 2nd place goes to Archea's current setup with dual Caps powered by the Crown. Awesome.
post #592 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

So true, there is no way that most of the subs were pushed to their limits the vast majority of the time. In fact it's hard to believe that we ever hit 118, or 123, or anywhere close during the blind listening. I'm not saying it isn't true, it just seems like we weren't near that loud (says the guy that wore earplugs the whole time ).

Seriously though, I've experienced 120 db's in my room and the body impact/volume seemed way louder than the blind gtg and it can't all be the earplugs because I had them in for the "after party" spl craziness and that was the loudest bass I've ever heard/felt in my life outside of a car. 2nd place goes to Archea's current setup with dual Caps powered by the Crown. Awesome.

Maybe somebody passed wind near the mic during the testing?
post #593 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post


I doubt it. Tesseract's subs sound the same as HuskerOmaha's subs. At the Omaha GTG, Tesseract walked in during the CHT 18.2 and said he instantly recognized the sonic signature. HuskerOmaha was pretty sure Setup D was the CHT based on the sonic signature. After the Omaha GTG, I went to Tesseract's house and we listened to his duals and also my Rythmik. Tesseract's subs sounded about the same as at the Omaha GTG.

Agree with Kyle. I also thought and still do that Joshko was sketchy regarding his subs. It was obviously handled poorly PR wise though.
post #594 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

For at least 90% of the listening, the subs were well within their limits.

Probably more like 98-99% of the time. But it's the 1 to 2% that we are debating.
post #595 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Maybe somebody passed wind near the mic during the testing?

Err... ummm... maybe...

I blame the demon cats.
post #596 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Err... ummm... maybe...

I blame the demon cats.

Wow, I've been gone for a few weeks from this forum and am quite surprised that the bickering and accusations are still being tossed about. As a good friend of my would say......there's nothing but a bunch of little girls here. Geezzz.
post #597 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonardoP View Post

Wow, I've been gone for a few weeks from this forum and am quite surprised that the bickering and accusations are still being tossed about. As a good friend of my would say......there's nothing but a bunch of little girls here. Geezzz.

Not sure why you would quote my post in your reply.

But I was sitting next to the Dayton mic throughout the entire shootout.
post #598 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

But I was sitting next to the Dayton mic throughout the entire shootout.

So this whole time it was YOU that farted and not the CHT subs!!!
post #599 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

So this whole time it was YOU that farted and not the CHT subs!!!

Lol... 118 dB... wow.
post #600 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

So true, there is no way that most of the subs were pushed to their limits the vast majority of the time. In fact it's hard to believe that we ever hit 118, or 123, or anywhere close during the blind listening. I'm not saying it isn't true, it just seems like we weren't near that loud (says the guy that wore earplugs the whole time ).

Seriously though, I've experienced 120 db's in my room and the body impact/volume seemed way louder than the blind gtg and it can't all be the earplugs because I had them in for the "after party" spl craziness and that was the loudest bass I've ever heard/felt in my life outside of a car. 2nd place goes to Archea's current setup with dual Caps powered by the Crown. Awesome.

That's because it probably was louder in your room. What did you measure the 120db with?

In the blind shootout, the omnimic was used to measure SPL. The folks there recorded Peak SPL, not Max SPL. Peak SPL is just the peak of the waveform and has no time constraint to it. Max SPL is an RMS measurement, and replicates SPL that we 'hear'.

RS SPL Meters and the like record 'Max' numbers typically, not 'Peak'. In my tests with Omnimic, Peak SPL is inflated by 8-10db compared to Max SPL. It's not exact, but it's likely you were hearing 110 or so Max SPL at the meet in the example above.
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