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Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 22

post #631 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Peak and max read almost the exact same during AVR test tones in my limited testing when you use c weighted and slowest and reset the SPL capture.

For me, it is MIN & MAX that read the same during AVR test tones with PEAK reading 8dB higher...

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #632 of 848
Thread Starter 
Ill have to double check this then.
post #633 of 848
All I know is for four bstock/cstock 18.2s + a clone amp I was only out about $3100 I ended up backing off to 3 but they still threaten the structural integrity of my house. That's a hell of a deal in anyone's book. I have my thoughts about this thread, but they won't do anything to help anyone. All I can say is I hope GTGs like this continue in general.
post #634 of 848
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by madpoet View Post

All I know is for four bstock/cstock 18.2s + a clone amp I was only out about $3100 I ended up backing off to 3 but they still threaten the structural integrity of my house. That's a hell of a deal in anyone's book. I have my thoughts about this thread, but they won't do anything to help anyone. All I can say is I hope GTGs like this continue in general.



^

ever thought about hosting a subwoofer meet?

I'm curious to hear your opinion... I'll pm you.
post #635 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by madpoet View Post

All I know is for four bstock/cstock 18.2s + a clone amp I was only out about $3100 I ended up backing off to 3 but they still threaten the structural integrity of my house. That's a hell of a deal in anyone's book. I have my thoughts about this thread, but they won't do anything to help anyone. All I can say is I hope GTGs like this continue in general.

As mentioned, I have 2 18.2s up front and an 18.T spread out at the rear of my seating area and I have never had any of the problems listed. My CHTs are the most musical subs I have ever had.

I had the Klipsch, and while I like their speakers, the Klipsch sub was the flabbiest sub I have ever heard.
post #636 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by madpoet View Post

All I know is for four bstock/cstock 18.2s + a clone amp I was only out about $3100 I ended up backing off to 3 but they still threaten the structural integrity of my house. That's a hell of a deal in anyone's book. I have my thoughts about this thread, but they won't do anything to help anyone. All I can say is I hope GTGs like this continue in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

As mentioned, I have 2 18.2s up front and an 18.T spread out at the rear of my seating area and I have never had any of the problems listed. My CHTs are the most musical subs I have ever had.

I had the Klipsch, and while I like their speakers, the Klipsch sub was the flabbiest sub I have ever heard.

I think everyone defines musicality different. To some, it seems that a max output simulation is enough to determine which sub is more musical. You will see various comments about each sub; negative or positive. I'm betting Carp and I are on opposite spectrums of what we prefer. madpoet emphasizes that his threaten the structural integrity of the house. That may be the most important aspect to him. Some prefer floor transmission. Some want to hear their sub while others want seamless transition. The variables could go on forever.

Thinking of the first paragraph, it would be fun if we had a small GTG where each person brought a pair of speakers, subs, and a few of their own clips just to see what people prefer. The playback volume would not even matter for each setup. Some of us just enjoy hearing different setups.

I do find it funny that the test should of been stopped during the run though. Restart and lower the output of every setup? I remember when this someone sarcastically said he would replace the system consisting of speakers and subs meant for high volume with speakers and subs meant for lower volume and see how everyone reacted. Surely these would both be in their limits .

I think some people take these forums too seriously. The GTGs are tons of fun since everyone I meet has a sense of humor. We still get along even if we completely disagree on our audio knowledge. It would be nice if we could have a huge national GTG to actually meet each other and learn each other's personalities. Anything behind the screen seems more serious than in person. Maybe we need more smilies for the forum.
post #637 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

I think some people take these forums too seriously.

Ya got that right!


Maybe we need more smilies for the forum.

I Agree.

HH
post #638 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

I think everyone defines musicality different. To some, it seems that a max output simulation is enough to determine which sub is more musical. You will see various comments about each sub; negative or positive. I'm betting Carp and I are on opposite spectrums of what we prefer. madpoet emphasizes that his threaten the structural integrity of the house. That may be the most important aspect to him. Some prefer floor transmission. Some want to hear their sub while others want seamless transition. The variables could go on forever.

Thinking of the first paragraph, it would be fun if we had a small GTG where each person brought a pair of speakers, subs, and a few of their own clips just to see what people prefer. The playback volume would not even matter for each setup. Some of us just enjoy hearing different setups.

I do find it funny that the test should of been stopped during the run though. Restart and lower the output of every setup? I remember when this someone sarcastically said he would replace the system consisting of speakers and subs meant for high volume with speakers and subs meant for lower volume and see how everyone reacted. Surely these would both be in their limits .

I think some people take these forums too seriously. The GTGs are tons of fun since everyone I meet has a sense of humor. We still get along even if we completely disagree on our audio knowledge. It would be nice if we could have a huge national GTG to actually meet each other and learn each other's personalities. Anything behind the screen seems more serious than in person. Maybe we need more smilies for the forum.

Great post. Great points.

I've been to meets across the country over the years. I agree... always fun, always great people, always great food and drink.

IMHO, there is a striking difference between DIYers and commercial sub owners. When anyone has in the past said something like, "You probably prefer that sound because it's [...]" or "You could probably improve this aspect by trying [...] because it works in the real world by [...]", the response is typically:

DIYer: "Really? I never thought of it that way. Cool, I'm gonna try that as soon as I get home and I'll LYK how it turns out."

Commercial sub owner: "Yeah, you're just an idiot who hates my sub brand and its owner."

That's one reason why DIY bests commercial offerings. DIY always has room for improvement and therefore is always pushing the edge. Commercial subs are perfect and cannot be improved upon in any way (even though the "new and improved" model is always coming soon) and to suggest so is cause for war.

Bosso
post #639 of 848
Whatever. My Submersives are far better than any DIY sub could possibly be.

And Kyle's music preferences are sh*t.

Joking aside, I must admit that I did have some negative DIY bias because at the GTG I guessed that sub D (my least favorite other than the Klipsch) was the DIY sub.

I would like to hear some really nice DIY subs sometime. If selling Submersives is as easy as selling Caps it wouldn't be too big of a deal to make a change if in fact I prefered DIY to what I have now. I'm not saying that I am thinking of making a change, but I will always be open to the possibility. You won't see me building any cabinets myself though, that's for da*n sure.
post #640 of 848
I totally agree with both Bosso and Kwarny. As a relative noob in HT (not buying stuff, but understanding stuff), I generally trust GTG like these and the real world results that they produce than some sound proof room measurements or some graphs. I have come to appreciate the measurements and/or graphs, but what HO and Archaea did as well as Ethan (below90) and his sidekick (Madeel) did, helped me far more.

Not everyone can watch rooms at reference level or afford 4k in subs, and because of that, a bunch of guys who's hobby is HT getting together (or two for that matter) and giving their opinions is far better (FOR ME AT LEAST) than trying to decipher Josh Ricci's latest review (no disrespect Josh).

And Carp, I agree with you, I'd LOVE to have the time, energy, know-how, patience, and money to build dual LMS5400 sealed subs ala notnyt. But I'd end up bashing the box i was trying to make with a hammer because I have zero patience for that stuff.
post #641 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Joking aside, I must admit that I did have some negative DIY bias because at the GTG I guessed that sub D (my least favorite other than the Klipsch) was the DIY sub.

In light of that comment, it is interesting to read what you said about the Sub F, the actual DIY*:

"3rd best for music, maybe the best for movies along with sub C, I think this is the Caps Pro"

*Because the amp was modded for the driver I wouldn't call it a complete DIY
post #642 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

And Carp, I agree with you, I'd LOVE to have the time, energy, know-how, patience, and money to build dual LMS5400 sealed subs ala notnyt. But I'd end up bashing the box i was trying to make with a hammer because I have zero patience for that stuff.

I have ZERO wood working skills (or tool for that matter) so i had the cabs built for me. As for the know-how, there's tons of knowledge in the DIY section and most the guys are very helpful. Thanks to them i was able to assemble a pair of LMS's for about the same price as a pair of Submersives, maybe less actually.

At the very least its another option for us bass freaks without the DIY skillz.
post #643 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

In light of that comment, it is interesting to read what you said about the Sub F, the actual DIY*:

"3rd best for music, maybe the best for movies along with sub C, I think this is the Caps Pro"

*Because the amp was modded for the driver I wouldn't call it a complete DIY

True, thanks for looking that up. If I remember right the only 3's I gave out on movies were for the Submersive and the DIY sub.
post #644 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

I have ZERO wood working skills (or tool for that matter) so i had the cabs built for me. As for the know-how, there's tons of knowledge in the DIY section and most the guys are very helpful. Thanks to them i was able to assemble a pair of LMS's for about the same price as a pair of Submersives, maybe less actually.

At the very least its another option for us bass freaks without the DIY skillz.

Yeah, I would definitely have eD build cabinets for me if I ever went DIY. Have you compared the LMS DIY subs to Submersives? What were your impressions? I'm betting the LMS had more output?
post #645 of 848
Also, what amp are you using? thanks
post #646 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Yeah, I would definitely have eD build cabinets for me if I ever went DIY. Have you compared the LMS DIY subs to Submersives? What were your impressions? I'm betting the LMS had more output?

No sorry, havent heard a Submersive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Also, what amp are you using? thanks

FP14000k (Sanway clone)
post #647 of 848
Pre meet I also had major bias against DIY subs. After disliking sub D so much I immediately assigned it to the DIY's.

Post meet the DIY's are the front runner to grace my HT currently in construction! I am strongly considering 4 dual opposed boxes with 8 MFW-15 drivers and the modified amps at the meet. I would be utilizing ED for the boxes as well.

I remember from my notes and scores that I loved the DIY for music but thought it was a bit lacking for movies. I am hoping that adding 2 more boxes and 4 more drivers solves that problem. And 4 of them are still cheaper than 2 of most of what we listened to!

My notes on the DIY:
"Sub F was excellent for music and I almost rated it as high as sub C but changed my mind at the last second. That is how close some of these rankings are and many of the subs sounded similar to me near the end of the meet. Maybe I was starting to get a little bit of listening fatigue or was just tired. I liked these almost as much as Sub E for the movie clips so overall very good performance."

That said, I have not had a chance to run over to Carp's to listen to his dual SubM's. All bets could be off after that!

I am doing the layout service with the Erskine Group so I hope to do something soon after getting the recommendations back from Shawne Byrne.
post #648 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant View Post

Pre meet I also had major bias against DIY subs. After disliking sub D so much I immediately assigned it to the DIY's.

Post meet the DIY's are the front runner to grace my HT currently in construction! I am strongly considering 4 dual opposed boxes with 8 MFW-15 drivers and the modified amps at the meet. I would be utilizing ED for the boxes as well.

I remember from my notes and scores that I loved the DIY for music but thought it was a bit lacking for movies. I am hoping that adding 2 more boxes and 4 more drivers solves that problem. And 4 of them are still cheaper than 2 of most of what we listened to!

My notes on the DIY:
"Sub F was excellent for music and I almost rated it as high as sub C but changed my mind at the last second. That is how close some of these rankings are and many of the subs sounded similar to me near the end of the meet. Maybe I was starting to get a little bit of listening fatigue or was just tired. I liked these almost as much as Sub E for the movie clips so overall very good performance."

That said, I have not had a chance to run over to Carp's to listen to his dual SubM's. All bets could be off after that!

I am doing the layout service with the Erskine Group so I hope to do something soon after getting the recommendations back from Shawne Byrne.

Oh, I thought there were 8 sealed MFWs...... I understand why they scored so low now..... Just not in the same class as the company it was keeping in this one IMO. Now if you invite more of his buddies(8-MFWs) and throw away that POC Dayton amp you will start to be motivated.....
post #649 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post


Oh, I thought there were 8 sealed MFWs...... I understand why they scored so low now..... Just not in the same class as the company it was keeping in this one IMO. Now if you invite more of his buddies(8-MFWs) and throw away that POC Dayton amp you will start to be motivated.....

That POC Dayton amp was modded pretty well as evident by the awesome FR. I think the 8 drivers would have given the big dogs a great comparison.
post #650 of 848
Thread Starter 
You realize you are now suggesting 8 drivers against two in the case of the caps or os?
post #651 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

You realize you are now suggesting 8 drivers against two in the case of the caps or os?

Very true.

Though some with a smaller budget and enough available floor space might like that approach.
post #652 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

That POC Dayton amp was modded pretty well as evident by the awesome FR. I think the 8 drivers would have given the big dogs a great comparison.

Not saying the response shape wasn't nice, but they don't complain with a true 250w per driver either, just underpowered thats all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

You realize you are now suggesting 8 drivers against two in the case of the caps or os?

What? Still costs less...... So what if it takes up half the theater!
post #653 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerHarley View Post

I Agree.

I found enough for all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Great post. Great points.

I've been to meets across the country over the years. I agree... always fun, always great people, always great food and drink.

IMHO, there is a striking difference between DIYers and commercial sub owners. When anyone has in the past said something like, "You probably prefer that sound because it's [...]" or "You could probably improve this aspect by trying [...] because it works in the real world by [...]", the response is typically:

DIYer: "Really? I never thought of it that way. Cool, I'm gonna try that as soon as I get home and I'll LYK how it turns out."

Commercial sub owner: "Yeah, you're just an idiot who hates my sub brand and its owner."

That's one reason why DIY bests commercial offerings. DIY always has room for improvement and therefore is always pushing the edge. Commercial subs are perfect and cannot be improved upon in any way (even though the "new and improved" model is always coming soon) and to suggest so is cause for war.

Bosso

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

I totally agree with both Bosso and Kwarny. As a relative noob in HT (not buying stuff, but understanding stuff), I generally trust GTG like these and the real world results that they produce than some sound proof room measurements or some graphs. I have come to appreciate the measurements and/or graphs, but what HO and Archaea did as well as Ethan (below90) and his sidekick (Madeel) did, helped me far more.

Not everyone can watch rooms at reference level or afford 4k in subs, and because of that, a bunch of guys who's hobby is HT getting together (or two for that matter) and giving their opinions is far better (FOR ME AT LEAST) than trying to decipher Josh Ricci's latest review (no disrespect Josh).

And Carp, I agree with you, I'd LOVE to have the time, energy, know-how, patience, and money to build dual LMS5400 sealed subs ala notnyt. But I'd end up bashing the box i was trying to make with a hammer because I have zero patience for that stuff.

Without the DIYers intervening into some threads, I would not have asked the questions why does it sound this way. Instead I would be saying, "this sub kills this or this one has great mid-bass punch" or "this speaker has more detail in the highs". After reading many manufactures opinions and others experienced on diyaudio forums, you start to understand all the advantages and disadvantages of each design and what could make something sound this way. After trying to do the simplest sub build out there with no woodworking experience, I also learned the pains and efforts manufacturers deal with and that is even without the custom service. I plan on DIY my own speakers for fun hopefully soon but will always own a pair of ID or commercial speakers to keep me in check of reality. I have been without any speakers for so long that even my $50 Koss headphones and notebook speakers are starting to sound good again.

I must now get back to research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Whatever. My Submersives are far better than any DIY sub could possibly be.
And Kyle's music preferences are sh*t.

Joking aside, I must admit that I did have some negative DIY bias because at the GTG I guessed that sub D (my least favorite other than the Klipsch) was the DIY sub.

I would like to hear some really nice DIY subs sometime. If selling Submersives is as easy as selling Caps it wouldn't be too big of a deal to make a change if in fact I prefered DIY to what I have now. I'm not saying that I am thinking of making a change, but I will always be open to the possibility. You won't see me building any cabinets myself though, that's for da*n sure.

Someday you will join the DIY side. I think desertdome is the one that sticks his thing out and converts you. He was able to get Tesseract to buy subdudes and HuskerOmaha to buy those UXL-18 things.
post #654 of 848
My tentative plan is to put 2 of them up front behind the false wall I am building. I could put the other 2 up front with plenty of room but I could also put the other 2 in the rear corners of the room.

Maybe put floor to ceiling square bass traps on top of the rear subs so they are covered up.
post #655 of 848
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

Someday you will join the DIY side. I think desertdome is the one that sticks his thing out and converts you. He was able to get Tesseract to buy subdudes and HuskerOmaha to buy those UXL-18 things.

What is this "thing" that desertdome is going to going to stick carp with? I thought I knew both these guys fairly well. Doesn't seem like something I figured they were into. Guess you live and learn.
post #656 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


What is this "thing" that desertdome is going to going to stick carp with? I thought I knew both these guys fairly well. Doesn't seem like something I figured they were into. Guess you live and learn.

No wonder he is always wanting to come over and measure my setup!
post #657 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

What is this "thing" that desertdome is going to going to stick carp with? I thought I knew both these guys fairly well. Doesn't seem like something I figured they were into. Guess you live and learn.

I can't quite tell from the smiley. I am suspicious that you have one too. How else would a sealed sub lover enjoy the Ported Cap Pros so much.
post #658 of 848
Again, I think the bad performance of the CHT subs was from using the Behringer I-Nuke 3000 in stereo mode. Craig had an Inuke tested, and it managed to deliver 230 watts into 40 Hz (RMS).

Another test had it delivering 312 watts RMS at 1000 Hz.

This 312 watts at 1000 Hz meshes well with this type of amp delivering 230 watts at 40 Hz.

For the sake of argument, though, let us stipulate that the I-Nuke can deliver 312 watts all the way down to 20 Hz.

The case was made that the CHT subwoofers, as a pair, delivered 118.1 dB at 17 feet. This is a little over 5 meters from the LP.

A pair of CHT subwoofers in the sealed enclosures can deliver, at 4 meters outdoors, 103.6 dB at 30 Hz (with 624 watts). While 30 Hz is not the "lowest tone available", and all sealed subwoofers will have less output at 20 Hz than 30 Hz, 30 Hz was selected for this analysis. This means one is "erring on the side of the match working against the analysis, not with it".

Let us assume that, at 30 Hz, we achieved a full 9 dB in boundary gain at Archaea's theater. Based on what people experienced, 9 dB of boundary gain is being generous, but let's use it.

This means the subwoofers would be delivering 112.6 dB at 30 Hz at clipping. (624 watts).

The subwoofers were delivering appx. 6 dB higher levels of SPL, which meansn the I-Nukes were attempting to deliver a total of appx. 2400 watts, or 1200 watts per channel.

As the I-Nukes also had the built in limiter turned off, what people were experiencing was HEAVY clipping in an inexpensive amplifier.
post #659 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

Again, I think the bad performance of the CHT subs was from using the Behringer I-Nuke 3000 in stereo mode. Craig had an Inuke tested, and it managed to deliver 230 watts into 40 Hz (RMS).

Another test had it delivering 312 watts RMS at 1000 Hz.

This 312 watts at 1000 Hz meshes well with this type of amp delivering 230 watts at 40 Hz.

For the sake of argument, though, let us stipulate that the I-Nuke can deliver 312 watts all the way down to 20 Hz.

The case was made that the CHT subwoofers, as a pair, delivered 118.1 dB at 17 feet. This is a little over 5 meters from the LP.

A pair of CHT subwoofers in the sealed enclosures can deliver, at 4 meters outdoors, 103.6 dB at 30 Hz (with 624 watts). While 30 Hz is not the "lowest tone available", and all sealed subwoofers will have less output at 20 Hz than 30 Hz, 30 Hz was selected for this analysis. This means one is "erring on the side of the match working against the analysis, not with it".

Let us assume that, at 30 Hz, we achieved a full 9 dB in boundary gain at Archaea's theater. Based on what people experienced, 9 dB of boundary gain is being generous, but let's use it.

This means the subwoofers would be delivering 112.6 dB at 30 Hz at clipping. (624 watts).

The subwoofers were delivering appx. 6 dB higher levels of SPL, which meansn the I-Nukes were attempting to deliver a total of appx. 2400 watts, or 1200 watts per channel.

As the I-Nukes also had the built in limiter turned off, what people were experiencing was HEAVY clipping in an inexpensive amplifier.

The max and peak SPL issues were covered on the last few pages but the actual definition is still slightly unknown. Even if SPL was that severe, there is a great chance that Archaea's tweeters would be fried. No one mentioned speaker clipping.

I am pretty sure my sub hard clipped at the Omaha GTG since it sounded lightly like the "beating of wings". Last weekend I pushed my sub into power compression using slow sweeps making sure to drain the caps. It sounded like a big bird beating its wings. There was no metallic sound.

Even if the amp used a limiter, it would exhibit some coloration. I'm sure the HSU limiter activated a few times/scenes. It is also suppose to be a very musical sub. For the CHT, the amp did not clip during the music portion besides during the sweep. Maybe I didn't like the effect of Audyssey on setup D. Craig has not even mentioned this variable. Maybe it is because he recommends users to run Audyssey to provide the boost on the lower end since there is no internal equalization.

It is great that Craig is working on plate amps. IMHO, every serious manufacturer should have a specific amp just for their product. It is great when they offer other options for those that have spare amps or like to tweak. He would have another purchase from my friend if he pursued other finish options.
post #660 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

Again, I think the bad performance of the CHT subs was from using the Behringer I-Nuke 3000 in stereo mode. Craig had an Inuke tested, and it managed to deliver 230 watts into 40 Hz (RMS).

Another test had it delivering 312 watts RMS at 1000 Hz.

This 312 watts at 1000 Hz meshes well with this type of amp delivering 230 watts at 40 Hz.

For the sake of argument, though, let us stipulate that the I-Nuke can deliver 312 watts all the way down to 20 Hz.

The case was made that the CHT subwoofers, as a pair, delivered 118.1 dB at 17 feet. This is a little over 5 meters from the LP.

A pair of CHT subwoofers in the sealed enclosures can deliver, at 4 meters outdoors, 103.6 dB at 30 Hz (with 624 watts). While 30 Hz is not the "lowest tone available", and all sealed subwoofers will have less output at 20 Hz than 30 Hz, 30 Hz was selected for this analysis. This means one is "erring on the side of the match working against the analysis, not with it".

Let us assume that, at 30 Hz, we achieved a full 9 dB in boundary gain at Archaea's theater. Based on what people experienced, 9 dB of boundary gain is being generous, but let's use it.

This means the subwoofers would be delivering 112.6 dB at 30 Hz at clipping. (624 watts).

The subwoofers were delivering appx. 6 dB higher levels of SPL, which meansn the I-Nukes were attempting to deliver a total of appx. 2400 watts, or 1200 watts per channel.

As the I-Nukes also had the built in limiter turned off, what people were experiencing was HEAVY clipping in an inexpensive amplifier.

Just a wee bit of plagiarizing, wouldn't you say?
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