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Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012 - Page 26

post #751 of 848
I have never bottomed out my subs with the Berhinger amp and use the amp in bridge mode with two of the SS 18.1 subs. Prior to setting up the amp I spoke with the technical department at Berhinger and in consultation with them derived at using the amp in bridge mode. They specifically told me that dual mono and stero mode would not be appropriate for subwoofer use. They also mention that the amps are geared for professional use. The amp or drivers have never appeared under stain even when watching WOTW. A Chase sub was also used it this shootout and tested under demanding condition with movies that contained a lot of LFE: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1313176/shootout-epik-empire-vs-hsu-vtf-15h-vs-cht-cs18-1-vs-rythmik-fv15-vs-ed-a7s-450 I normally do not run my sub hot but, I have raised the subwoofer level in the avr on top of a 6 db bass boot thru the PEQ on the Berhinger and no adverse effect. The bass just become out of balance with the rest of the system The sub and the amp have been use with all the heavy LFE movie and tested at Reference level in my system. I have owned these subs and the Berhinger amp for most of the year and have never had problems with the subs or amp My power console attached to my subwoofer has reach 1700 watts. These subs have performed well with OHF, Obilivion, Cloverfield and most of the rest of movies with heavy LFE. I have also checked my peak amp use on the circuit which has a baseline of 2.3 amps. This has peaked higher than 17 amp during a few movies. This indicates that the amp and speaker are under a heavy load and support the subwoofer 800/1600 RMS/ peak wattage ratings. This is objective data from actual use of the amp and subwoofers.. Running the subs in dual mono mode is not the correct way to use this amp. Dual mono mode will deliver significantly less watts as tested in my system..

This discussion should focus on the proper setup of the amp with the sealed subs in the GTG. Problems with the Chase sub did not occur in the Two Brothers shootout. A Dayton SA 1000 amp was used in that GTG which points to a power issue, If anyone has any personal experience with this amp it should be shared. If I recall someone mention the JTR sub also clipping on the dual mono setup of the amp. People also reported that the subwoofers did not sound quite right with the dual mono setup.
Edited by derrickdj1 - 12/13/13 at 4:54am

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #752 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

I have never bottomed out my subs with the Berhinger amp and use the amp in bridge mode with two of the SS 18.1 subs. Prior to setting up the amp I spoke with the technical department at Berhinger and in consultation with them derived at using the amp in bridge mode. They specifically told me that dual mono and stero mode would not be appropriate for subwoofer use. They also mention that the amps are geared for professional use. The amp or drivers have never appeared under stain even when watching WOTW. A Chase sub was also used it this shootout and tested under demanding condition with movies that contained a lot of LFE: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1313176/shootout-epik-empire-vs-hsu-vtf-15h-vs-cht-cs18-1-vs-rythmik-fv15-vs-ed-a7s-450 I normally do not run my sub hot but, I have raised the subwoofer level in the avr on top of a 6 db bass boot thru the PEQ on the Berhinger and no adverse effect. The bass just become out of balance with the rest of the system The sub and the amp have been use with all the heavy LFE movie and tested at Reference level in my system. I have owned these subs and the Berhinger amp for most of the year and have never had problems with the subs or amp My power console attached to my subwoofer has reach 1700 watts. These subs have performed well with OHF, Obilivion, Cloverfield and most of the rest of movies with heavy LFE. I have also checked my peak amp use on the circuit which has a baseline of 2.3 amps. This has peaked higher than 17 amp during a few movies. This indicates that the amp and speaker are under a heavy load and support the subwoofer 800/1600 RMS/ peak wattage ratings. This is objective data from actual use of the amp and subwoofers.. Running the subs in dual mono mode is not the correct way to use this amp. Dual mono mode will deliver significantly less watts as tested in my system..

This discussion should focus on the proper setup of the amp with the sealed subs in the GTG. Problems with the Chase sub did not occur in the Two Brothers shootout. A Dayton SA 1000 amp was used in that GTG which points to a power issue, If anyone has any personal experience with this amp it should be shared. If I recall someone mention the JTR sub also clipping on the dual mono setup of the amp. People also reported that the subwoofers did not sound quite right with the dual mono setup.

You should start your own thread tutoring anyone who wants to buy or has a Berry whatever amplifier.

As far as your "objective data" goes, give me a break. rolleyes.gif

"never appeared under strain", "tested under demanding condition", "I have raised the subwoofer level", "no adverse effect", "performed well with... most of the rest of the movies with heavy LFE", "Dual mono will deliver significantly less watts..."

None of that is objective data. They are opinions backed by nothing.

Regarding Adam and Ethan and the excellent shootout they conducted, specifically the CHT sub:

The Dayton amp was used, the room was different, the data was gathered from a shorter distance, the levels were different, the input signal was vastly different, the program source was different, etc... apples to watermelons.

And the results?
Quote:
Q: How did you guys calibrate the subs and do room EQ?

A: We used only what came with the sub...
Quote:
5) The Incredible Hulk (2008) - Sonic Cannons scene
a. at reference level peaked at 114db then steady 108-110db. This was absolute max, the clip light was all lit up...
Quote:
Again, when the clip light came on the sub was only hitting 108-110db, and peaked @ 113db.

I'm certain the boys hooked the sub up right and calibrated it properly.

Have a look at the responses that resulted in the peak readings as well. The CHT sub was down further at 20 Hz from its peak than any of the other subs by -5dB to -15dB. All of the peak reading came from the subs peak FR, which is at 50-60 Hz, corresponding nicely with the scene chosen from The Hulk, but was still easily driven to audible clipping with no boost applied from Audyssey.

Yeah, "tested under demanding conditions" is debatable, but whatever the conditions were, it failed miserably by a) not reproducing 1/2 the bandwidth of the input signal accurately and b) by severely clipping throughout the exercise..

Hulk: Sonic Cannons:



Now, here's WOTW, one scene. If you want to labor under the delusion that ANY sub "handles this with no problem", let alone your CHT system, you are welcome to do so, but if you expect me or anyone else to buy that, you need to post the proofs. If your subwoofer is down -20 to -30dB where this scene actually lives, then sure... my HTIB can "handle" this scene with no problem. But the impression you give is that your sub actually reproduces this scene with "no adverse effect", and that a) has NOTHING to do with Arch's GTG and b) is pure nonsense.



Also, stop posting that Archaea's honor has not been called into question over this cheesy sub and its amateurish presentation by a company that is completely responsible for recommending a system with zero instruction or knowledge of how to set up and operate that system. He's been denegrated, accused, called out for nothing he did, etc., etc. Were it me, I would respond exactly as he has, for as long as the subject keeps coming up or regurgitated by experts like yourself.
post #753 of 848
I stand by my statement that the subs should not have been setup in dual mono mode. Are you also saying that the Berhinger people don't know how to use their product? I have never said anything to dishonor or question anyone's integrity. If someone else has done that, direct your attack at them. it is amazing that someone can tell another what they are or are not seeing in their system My power console is accurate and the sub have approached the rated RMS/peak wattage. According to you the subs should break if more than 400 watts is pump into them. I wonder if you have an explanation as to why my drivers and amps have not been destroyed? They are used in a large room that does not provide a lot of cabin gain which makes the work load even more demanding.. It is apparent that some forum members have a personal issues with Chase. That issue should not be directed to anyone that own a Chase product and disagrees with your point of view or data. The shootout of the two brothers also had the Rythmik FV 15, Epik Empine, HSU and the 18 in. Elemental Design sub. All the sub in that GTG was very close and the Chase sub produce the highest spl of any of the sub. Does that mean that the other subs in the shootout were poor subs? Seeing the lack of reference to that shootout gives the appearance that some people only wish to report negative finding from the Kanas City GTG. I also have not seen and explantion of why there was some concern also with the amp on the JTR sub. Fairness is a virtue.
Edited by derrickdj1 - 12/13/13 at 10:18am
post #754 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

I stand by my statement that the subs should not have been setup in dual mono mode.

Yes, we get that. Not relevant, but thanks for saying it a dozen times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Are you also saying that the Berhinger people don't know how to use their product?

No. I'm saying that any SW manufacturer who sells a passive version of their sub should deliver comprehensive instructions as to the limitations of the sub to prevent improper use and/or damage. The Behringer people are irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

I have never said anything to dishonor or question anyone's integrity. If someone else has done that, direct your attack at them.

You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Archeae honor has not been attacked in any manner or any of the participants. This discussion should be simple. It was pointed out that the I Nuke amp was not setup correctly and has went un-noticed for a long time on this forum. I did not comment on the results of the meet because for me, they are not relevant. I had no experience with any of the subs in the GTG at the time and was not an active member on this forum.

Yes, you were not an active member at the time. So, what qualifies you to state that he has not been attacked over this non-issue? Arch has nothing to do with the way any of the subwoofers were set up, so if you have a beef with that specific point, direct it at the person who preferred the setup that was used. Arch has repeated exactly that about 2 billion times, so please, get it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

it is amazing that someone can tell another what they are or are not seeing in their system My power console is accurate and the sub have approached the rated RMS/peak wattage. According to you the subs should break if more than 400 watts is pump into them. I wonder if you have an explanation as to why my drivers and amps have not been destroyed?

Post the data that might make it possible to answer this vague question? Post your FR close-mic and at the LP. Post a loopback of your signal chain to the subwoofers. Post a waterfall graph of your sub 'handling' WOTW, post your room dimensions and the distance from sub to LP, etc., etc.

I said nothing about you or your subwoofers reaction to any of the requested data above this paragraph. I couldn't care less what your subwoofers do in your room or how you think they do based on your power console. I was referring to the GTG you're offering a banal and misplaced critique of. Had the boost scenario been in place and the amplifier been in bridged mode, the amplifier would still have clipped only with much more possibly damaging effect. That's not a real tough one to predict, never mind amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

They are used in a large room that does not provide a lot of cabin gain which makes the work load even more demanding..

The size of your room is relevant, but only somewhat down the list. How far you sit from your subs, what your calibration method and result is, the signal chain data, playback levels, etc. are more important in determining how demanding anything is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

It is apparent that some forum members have a personal issues with Chase. That issue should not be directed to anyone that own a Chase product and disagrees with your point of view or data.

This, my fellow member, is your opinion and, where it concerns me, not worth much. Sorry, but a product that has been presented with innumerable false claims, slanderous and libelous accusations and generally just in poor taste reaps the blowback that comes with that sort of behavior. Like I suggested to you previously, feel free to start your own thread with your opinions on what and where all members should post and... good luck with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

The shootout of the two brothers also had the Rythmik FV 15, Epik Empine, HSU and the 18 in. Elemental Design sub. All the sub in that GTG was very close and the Chase sub produce the highest spl of any of the sub. Does that mean that the other subs in the shootout were poor subs? Seeing the lack of reference to that shootout gives the appearance that some people only wish to report negative finding from the Kanas City GTG. I also have not seen and explantion of why the amp also clipped with the JTR sub. Fairness is a virtue.

Feel free to bump Adam/Ethan's thread and offer your expert evaluations of the data they presented. It is irrelevant here.
post #755 of 848
I'm not sure if this bears any relevance or was stated earlier in this thread but elsewhere a forum member contacted Eminence about the T/S parameters of the driver after giving them the identifying markings. Eminence replied that the Xmax was 11 mm which is quite a bit less than what the vendor has stated.
post #756 of 848
The squeaky wheel ususally gets the oil because something is wrong with it.biggrin.gif
post #757 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I'm not sure if this bears any relevance or was stated earlier in this thread but elsewhere a forum member contacted Eminence about the T/S parameters of the driver after giving them the identifying markings. Eminence replied that the Xmax was 11 mm which is quite a bit less than what the vendor has stated.


What is the Xlim value?


From Eminence:

XMAX/XLIM

Short for Maximum Linear Excursion. Speaker output becomes non-linear when the voice coil begins to leave the magnetic gap. Although suspensions can create non-linearity in output, the point at which the number of turns in the gap (see BL) begins to decrease is when distortion starts to increase. Eminence has historically been very conservative with this measurement and indicated only the voice coil overhang (Xmax: Voice coil height minus top plate thickness, divided by 2). The Xmax figures on this website are expressed as the greater of the result of the formula above or the excursion point of the woofer where THD reaches 10%. This method results in a more real world expression of the usable excursion limit for the transducer. Xlim is expressed by Eminence as the lowest of four potential failure condition measurements: spider crashing on top plate; Voice coil bottoming on back plate; Voice coil coming out of gap above core; or the physical limitation of cone. A transducer exceeding the Xlim is certain to fail from one of these conditions. High pass filters, limiters, and enclosure modeling software programs are valuable tools in protecting your woofers from mechanical failure.
post #758 of 848
Xlim or xmech wasn't given from Eminence (unless you just say gap height * 2 = 19.05mm), but in Josh's testing he noted this:

"The xmax of the driver is listed as about 19mm one way with a recommended power rating of about 800 watts. In use the driver would produce this much stroke but the xmech seems to be at almost the same point as the useful excursion and the surround and/or suspension seemed to be the most limiting factor."

So Xlim or Xmech = 19-20mm. Chase's claim of their 18 being linear to the same point is pretty... bold. Here's the reference for the T/S params. I measured one of my drivers and ended up with params very similar:
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

I am a Tweak City Audio & Chase Home Theater customer and still have (5) PRO-10 speakers and (4) 18" sealed subs using the Eminence driver. My first experience with the subs was the CS-18.T with the Dayton amp...two 18" sealed subs wired for a 4 ohm load to the amp. My initial impression was very positive but I was not impressed with the under 20Hz performance with the Dayton amp and traded it to CHT for a EP-4000 amp that was head and shoulders better and never shutdown while running demanding LFE demos. I used my DCX-2496 EQ to create a LP filter to help boost the low end and the subs started to sound very poorly when playing demanding scenes (20Hz and under) at reference levels.

I added another (2) SS-18.1 subs to the mix along with another EP-4000 amp and noticed a big improvement as well as a HUGE boost to the look of the sub. I placed the four subs around my room to even out the response and dialed them in with OmniMic to be level with my main speakers. I could still find the limit of the system quite easily and had to dial back the LP filter to keep the sound quality high and not worry about the subs sounding bad when a new, hot LFE movie showed up. At this point, I sent an e-mail with the spec # to Eminence requesting the T/S parameters and they replied with the following:

Re: 6.82 Ohms
Le: 2.07 mH
QM: 8.25
QE: 0.28
QT: 0.27
Xmax: 11.11 mm
Pmax: 300 Watts
Bl: 21.12 Tm
Coil Diameter: 3.00 Inches
Gap Height: 0.375 Inches
Efficiency: 2.61 %
fs: 21.4 Hz
Mms: 137.8 grams
Mmd: 114.8 grams
Cms: 0.401 mm/N
Rms: 2.247 N*sec/m
Vas: 777.9 liters
SD: 1169.0 cm^2
VD: 1299.1 cm^3
EBP: 75.4
Magnet Weight: 120 ounces
Winding Width: 1.250 inches
SPL: 96.2 dB 1W-1m

Three things jumped out at me. First was the SPL showing a very sensitive driver but I was concerned about the Xmax at 11.11mm and the Power Max of 300 watts. At this point, I stopped trying to push for better extension in my 3000 cubic feet room on a cement floor and dialed things back on the amp and ditched the LP filter on the DCX to keep the subs well within their limits. IMHO, this driver is better suited for a ported design for home theater but I love the sound of the sealed box running in the 40Hz to 150Hz range. I added a HUGE ported sub designed by Josh Ricci to handle from 10Hz to 40Hz and let the CHT subs pound away from 40Hz to the 150Hz crossover.

I finally caught the DIY/AIY bug and ordered (3) Fusion 12 speakers and (4) SI 18" subs along with the 4 cubic feet flat packs from Erich at DIY Sound Group. I moved the entire CHT system to a separate area (4000 cubic feet on a suspended floor) that my wife uses for Yoga, Meditation and Trance Dance and it POUNDS the music out for her clients...she even likes the wood "feet" from the CS-18.T! biggrin.gif

As always...IMHO, YMMV.
post #759 of 848
I have a 1300 sq ft. room and regularly push 700-1700 watts into my two SS 18.1 sub. I sit around 12 ft back from the screen. I have been doing this for close to a year with the Berhinger amp in bridge mode and it is great. I ran an REW testtone sweep and hit 115 db at 20 Hz (2 meters). X max/ X mech, I have IMAX!
Edited by derrickdj1 - 12/14/13 at 12:15pm
post #760 of 848
What you have actually is the inability to provide useful objective data.

Since most IMAX installs have a low end good only to 30Hz, I'd agree with your assessment. tongue.gif

Ask me how I know.
post #761 of 848
It sure is fun getting your goat going. It is healthy to get a good chuckle everyday. Thanks.smile.gif
post #762 of 848

Right,every sub is a good deal, more money more it. I am kicking myself even harder for not picking up some of those mfw drivers though. I also wasn't expecting the Cap S to be that small for an 18". If you are looking at small form factor without giving up performance, look no further.

ec5F

post #763 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

It sure is fun getting your goat going. It is healthy to get a good chuckle everyday. Thanks.smile.gif

Trust me, I had my share of chuckles over the Chase "subs" when I owned them. They're always good for a laugh. biggrin.gif
post #764 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Trust me, I had my share of chuckles over the Chase "subs" when I owned them. They're always good for a laugh. biggrin.gif

That's funny actually. I seem to recall that you really liked your subs when you got them. I looked up the thread you started when you got the subs setup. You used terms like powerful, impactful, dynamic, and detailed to describe their performance.
post #765 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spur Darren View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Trust me, I had my share of chuckles over the Chase "subs" when I owned them. They're always good for a laugh. biggrin.gif

That's funny actually. I seem to recall that you really liked your subs when you got them. I looked up the thread you started when you got the subs setup. You used terms like powerful, impactful, dynamic, and detailed to describe their performance.
Initial impressions don't neccessarily reflect subsequent ones. JD Powers tracks consumer satisfaction for initial purchases as well as those after a period of time. They don't necessarily carry over. Consumer Reports uses subscriber feedback to ascertain reliability on a number of products. Half of all marriages end in divorce. Ego is a significant factor in purchasing decisions. If you've made a good choice, you've validated your analytic skills. But what happens when the choice was not so good? Many, in order to protect themselves, turn to rationalization and turn from being critical consumers by trivializing the shortcomings. They cease being objective.

No doubt nfraso's initial impressions fall into this pattern. I'm sure they were impactful but he did something that many don't. He started measuring and developing a more comprehensive understanding of what was going on. What he came to find is that the impact wasn't coming from the areas he thought they were. There was a lot of information in whatever he was playing that wasn't being reproduced with fidelity. Bosso has illustrated how graphically one can ascertain this by comparing plots of the native material to what is produced by one' system. Further he found that there were patterns of erroneous statements coming from CHT. He began to question just how much they knew about how to design a system. Perhaps a more accurate assessment of the sealed subs would be to look at them as authoritative mid bass modules with very modest low frequency capabilities.to some extent CHT has looked to do just that when they talk about about what frequency range is important and using term such as slam. This is somewhat ironical if not hypocritical when one juxtaposes it against CC's railing against how the ACA has been reframed.

It's my hope that future products under the Chane name will be more robustly and thoughtfully designed.
post #766 of 848
The subs were not setup correctly in the shootout. I can pump near the RMS and peak ( 800/1600 watts ) values into my subs without a problem. The excuse that rooms are different does not float. Graphs and extrapolated data are no longer cutting it. These are just to throw people off from the real discussion and setup issues with the amp and shootout.. I use the Berhinger amp in bridge mode with no limiter and have been doing so for close to a year and no problems, just deep, smooth articulate bass. In bridge mode the amp supplies around 2000 watts to the subs. Someone said he was an expert and said the sub can't handle more than the 400 watts in Dual Mono Mode based off his graph and extrapolated data. My experience is 180 degrees to the contrary. I have two non identical power consoles connected to my subs. Even if they were off, which they are not, you could add a 10 or 20% error and the numbers still are way over 400 watts. Anyone in their right mind would rather run the subs closer to there rated output and not 400 watts in a subwoofer shootout. Talking about the x mech/x max does not answer the question of the power discrepancy. Once again it is a decoy to evade the real discussion.

Also, the seating positions in the shootout were not optimal. This was not a well done shootout in spite of the efforts put forth. I am starting to see why nobody mentions the Two Brothers shootout as a comparison since it was well done. They define their objectives clearly and executed a great event. Arguing to the contrary is starting to fall on deaf ears. Next, I will be accused of using pixie dust on my subs. My original statement was about the amp setup, not any particular sub. The bridge mode that I use was discussed with Berhinger and was assured this is the correct mode to run the subs.

In no way should this shootout be used as a bench mark to make sub recommendations. The subs used in the shootout are excellent subs, the study just has to many major flaws.
Edited by derrickdj1 - 12/15/13 at 6:23am
post #767 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post


Also, the seating positions in the shootout were not optimal. This was not a well done shootout.


Seating positions not optimal? Were you there? Do you know how the seating was setup? Should we have all sat on top of each other in the exact position of the "sweet spot"?

Everyone had the exact same seat for every sub demo and all seats were clustered (using folding chairs so that they could be close together) in the optimal seating area in the room.
post #768 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

The subs were not setup correctly in the shootout. I can pump near the RMS and peak ( 800/1600 watts ) values into my subs without a problem. The excuse that rooms are different does not float. Graphs and extrapolated data are no longer cutting it. These are just to throw people off from the real discussion and setup issues with the amp and shootout.. I use the Berhinger amp in bridge mode with no limiter and have been doing so for close to a year and no problems, just deep, smooth articulate bass. In bridge mode the amp supplies around 2000 watts to the subs. Someone said he was an expert and said the sub can't handle more than the 400 watts in Dual Mono Mode based off his graph and extrapolated data. My experience is 180 degrees to the contrary. I have two non identical power consoles connected to my subs. Even if they were off, which they are not, you could add a 10 or 20% error and the numbers still are way over 400 watts. Anyone in their right mind would rather run the subs closer to there rated output and not 400 watts in a subwoofer shootout. Talking about the x mech/x max does not answer the question of the power discrepancy. Once again it is a decoy to evade the real discussion.

Also, the seating positions in the shootout were not optimal. This was not a well done shootout in spite of the efforts put forth. I am starting to see why nobody mentions the Two Brothers shootout as a comparison since it was well done. They define their objectives clearly and executed a great event. Arguing to the contrary is starting to fall on deaf ears. Next, I will be accused of using pixie dust on my subs. My original statement was about the amp setup, not any particular sub. The bridge mode that I use was discussed with Berhinger and was assured this is the correct mode to run the subs.

In no way should this shootout be used as a bench mark to make sub recommendations. The subs used in the shootout are excellent subs, the study just has to many major flaws.

^^^Seriously, dude has 5 liters of 63 Hz-tuned displacement and pro sound amp 101in a bedroom and is here talking about testtone sweeps and DeeBees. :roll eyes:

But, there are those power consoles... hard to argue with that. biggrin.gif

This is not a well thought out mantra despite the grammatical errors. tongue.gif

Yo, fella... stop mistyping for a second and post your FR at the LP. I would love to see what smooth deep and articulate look like. You can start the sweep at 115dB since that should be no sweat with your Behringer power console thingy.
post #769 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

In no way should this shootout be used as a bench mark to make sub recommendations. The subs used in the shootout are excellent subs, the study just has to many major flaws.

Other than the CHT setup and the fact that we were all sitting in spots in the room that you don't care for, what are the other major flaws?
post #770 of 848
Yo, fella... stop mistyping for a second and post your FR at the LP. I would love to see what smooth deep and articulate look like. You can start the sweep at 115dB since that should be no sweat with your Behringer power console thingy.[/quote]

As I have stated evasion in not the answer. My room is around 1300 sq ft. No real reason to continue this discussion on indirect answers to the initial question.
post #771 of 848
Ugliest bird troll I've ever seen....
post #772 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

The excuse that rooms are different does not float. Graphs and extrapolated data are no longer cutting it. These are just to throw people off from the real discussion and setup issues with the amp and shootout.

Rooms play a huge part in acoustics, especially for LFE at reference levels. If the seating wasn't ideal, wouldn't it be not ideal for all of the subs tested?
post #773 of 848
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post


Also, the seating positions in the shootout were not optimal. This was not a well done shootout in spite of the efforts put forth. I am starting to see why nobody mentions the Two Brothers shootout as a comparison since it was well done. They define their objectives clearly and executed a great event. Arguing to the contrary is starting to fall on deaf ears. [...] In no way should this shootout be used as a bench mark to make sub recommendations. The subs used in the shootout are excellent subs, the study just has to many major flaws..

Other than the CHT setup and the fact that we were all sitting in spots in the room that you don't care for, what are the other major flaws?

I'm working on my responses for much of the discussion lately, and internally debating how deep to dive. Most all of the information in my future response is already out there -- spread through many posts and a few different threads. Gathering it back up again after a couple years is a bit of a chore.

Your subjective experiences in your room (my subwoofers are awesome in my room type comments) have little to do with anything related to this meet. I am interested in your objective data. I am interested in finding out if the iNuke amp affected sound quality without displaying clip lights (specifically for the music section, as I've already agreed, the clip lights were being displayed during the movie section - and that it would have impacted the results on the dynamic peaks - despite the sub owner choosing the amp setup against my verbal recommendation when we first heard these noises on Friday night pre testing). I have some testing in mind for this question, and am openly asking if anyone has any suggestions to try to verify one way or the other - since I still have the amp.

I will quickly note that I've used my iNuke on a lot of different subs of different ohm ratings and box alignments, and probably half a dozen different Audyssey setups, and had no problems so I don't really expect that amp has a strange issue I've not encountered on other subs. I do want to better understand the issue that desertdome and bosso are talking about.. I've used the iNuke at the recent 2013 G2G in the park on three different subs there. The Caps, the THT LP, the x48. I've used the iNuke on a pair of Dayton 15's that belong to kcnitro07, I've used it on my old DIY subwoofer ottoman with four 15" MA car audio subs, I've used it on a pair of Infinity Kappa perfect 10's, and I've of course used it on my own Captivator subs --- I'm probably forgetting other subs I've powered by the iNuke. Hearing weird sounds out of the amp that sound like bottoming when encountering clipping, or more importantly before encountering clipping, is not something I've experienced with these other subs. I read on the CHT forum in defense of the test that the iNuke has does not clip gracefully, it clips hard, and makes that sound when it does. That's not been my experience on a myriad of subs powered by this amp.

The seating positions have little to do with anything. The guests were seated in the first 1/3 of the room as shown in the youtube videos in the first few posts - within 1-2 meters of the subs in most cases. I have 12 inch tile on the floor, you can get an idea of the seating distances and room reference from the video. The rear row of foldup chairs is basically where I normally have my theater seating as shown in my signature linked theater pics. Guests were in the same exact seats the entire time for all demonstration. Seat position marks were taped on the floor for accuracy.

I too would like to know the major flaws that render our comparison worthless. I would also like to know why you don't think our comparison was well planned or thought out? I spoke with multiple vendors, including Craig Chase, before the meet - to make sure we had a valid setup. The 3dB per sub increase (maximum) was Craig's idea and used in the meet. In addition we had a planning thread where the community could submit ideas to make it go smoothly. I feel we have one of the most complete, documented, and well planned shootouts available. Even if you choose to dismiss the CHT results, your prerogative, you cannot legitimately publically dismiss the meet data without providing input on why it is majorly flawed.
Edited by Archaea - 12/15/13 at 8:51am
post #774 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

My room is around 1300 sq ft.

Really ... eek.gif

That is one big assed room. smile.gif
post #775 of 848
Is this discussion something to do with the CHT sub? Or the amp not setup properly?
post #776 of 848
Thread Starter 
derrickdj1,

As to your theories:

What I am most interested in is seeing if we can verify one way or another what actually happened. Let's try to test out desertdome's theory. I know we were able to reproduce the same results on three days with the CHT subs. Friday test setup (no Audyssey), Saturday's meet (with Audyssey), and Sunday's retest (with Audyssey). I don't agree with desertdome's synopsis that the CHT subs were distorting the whole time and I don't think the other attendee's subjective commentary lines up with that. I talked with Luke Kamp, stitch1, and carp in the last couple days and asked them if they thought the CHT was distorting the whole time and they all said no. Stitch1 even said the CHT subs sounded pretty good to him. I’m not saying desertdome didn’t hear sound he didn’t like, I’m just saying "distorting the whole time" is seemingly an exaggeration based on hearing them distort a few times. I personally thought the CHT were only distorting on the extreme dynamic peaks in the movie section (not every clip) and at the bottom end of the music section's sine wave. Others, who were in attendance, can probably chime in with their thoughts on the constant distortion question.

The songs and media we used are all linked in the first post which includes the sine wave. I'd prefer to provide the actual original clips to you via e-mail if you want to do some actual testing, which should be more accurate for testing, because the clip I posted was combined/encoded to be a single MP3 so I could easily post it for others to demo, but in combining those tracks they had to be re-encoded which may affect the sound/dynamics of the source. My Onkyo settings were all listed in post three, main volume settings in post one. The iNuke DSP settings are listed exactly, the only big variables are the room, and what Audyssey did/does. But the frequency response measurement was captured before Audyssey in Friday nights test, and then the same DSP settings were applied and the frequency response capture showing what Audyssey did is available for both Saturday and Sunday's retest. There aren’t any mystery settings that are missing to repeat what happened. So we should be able to make more sense of this with some further testing.

Do I understand you have a iNuke DSP 3000 and a pair of CHT 18.1 subs? We, and by that I mean you, could repeat the tests if you are willing. Ideally you'd do the tests once in bridged mode, and once in dual mono mode. Yes this will require rewiring your neutrik and would likely be a several hour ordeal.

As to setup - we ran Audyssey MultiEQ XT, turned the subs up 3dB on each channel (my Onkyo TX-NR1007 has two discrete sub outs), set the crossover for 100hz for mains and 120hz for subs. Turned off Dynamic EQ. Playback levels were at -10dB for music, and -10dB for movies with the exception of the last few tracks.

This is the information I was trying to share with Craig Chase. He had the iNuke amp. I asked him to test it on his own and he was unwilling to. If you repeat this test in your own home you should encounter the same thing.
Here is our retest data
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387178/archaeas-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012/330#post_21515107

You might ask how could the test be relevant in different rooms? Because I know from Sunday's retest that Audyssey didn't change the sub's response much at all in my room (because we already made the results so flat with the iNuke's DSP) - therefore you SHOULD be able to use the exact same DSP settings, not involve Audyssey, set the SPL levels manually, and experience the same results on the same media as we did. If you experience the 'bottoming' out sound on the sine sweep with 8 ohm dual mono, but don't experience it on bridged 4 ohm load then it could clear up some of this controversy. I still have all the omnimic captures from the meet. For verification that Audyssey didn't end up changing the frequency response much from my DSP settings in my room check out the following screenprint: Audyssey actually lowered the output a dB or two at 20hz over what we had done with the DSP.


The top two sweeps are with the iNuke - with and without Audyssey
The bottom four sweeps are with the Dayton amp - with and without Audyssey and with and without bassboost button pressed.

Let me ward off one question - NOTE the above Sunday restest capture was done from one listening position and averaged 10 times. Versus the meet frequency response captures listed on the first page of this thread that were averaged from the multiple seats of each listener. The two graphs cannot be compared. But the point is that Audyssey didn't have much to do, and didn't do much to the EQ we dialed into the iNuke's DSP. So blaming Audyssey for this 'issue' is likely misplaced blame.

Were the bad noises on the deep notes and dynamic peaks solely the amp's fault?
FWIW, I will remind the reader that HuskerOmaha told me the CHT 18.1 subs were the only subs he was able to recognize during the blind meet audition based on those bad noises because he was familiar with their bottoming out sound in his room from his usage on his own pair. He was not using a iNuke DSP 3000, and IIRC had a Dayton SA1000. I will also point out that the Dayton amp was tested on Sunday in various configs - with and without Audyssey - and while not producing the bad noises the Dayton amp sounded notably anemic for the deepest material to both the sub owner and I in my room at the standardized playback levels used during the meet. It was also discussed and agreed upon by both the sub owner and I during Sunday's retest that the 18.1 subs would have most certainly scored worse in the blind testing using the Dayton in four ohm bridged in my room, which was Craig's standard selling configuration at the time. It would have most likely scored lower because the deep bass was literally missing when the subs were coupled with the Dayton on the material tested, and thus a sub that was subjectively rated as having little depth of note by the majority of the auditioners, would have had less depth in comparison to the other offerings. Well then what other amp should we have considered? We couldn't use the standard paring Dayton amp because as I said it sounded sufficiently weaker to both of us. What about other popular amps? Well we shouldn't use the EP4000, because the EP4000 was said to sound poor on the CHT 18.1 pair by three notable CHT forum members as noted in this thread.
http://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3975&page=49

Specifically - diamondelts and mktheater said the EP4000 sounded bad on 18.1 as quoted here
http://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showpost.php?p=78521&postcount=482


And tesseract67 said the EP4000 wasn't any good as quoted here:
http://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showpost.php?p=78552&postcount=494



At a certain point you can't help but wonder if an amp 'sounds bad' or like it sucks "monkey balls" when it delivers power at the lower frequencies the 18.1 subs can't comfortably handle? In that instance the amp should not take the blame.



So derrickdj1,
Would you consider mimicking our iNuke DSP (post 3) and AVR volume settings exactly and see if you can reproduce the 'bottoming' out sound at our same settings in your room using dual mono 8ohm? You will not run Audyssey for your tests after applying the iNuke DSP. Once we have established that I think we could learn a lot from there. What my DSP setting sounds like, or measures like, in your room is irrelevant to this test proposition. You are only attempting to mimick my settings in your room. What is relevant is answering the question - do the CHT 18.1 subs make a bottoming out sound at 8ohm dual mono using the settings, on the sine wave sweep, and yet not exhibit that behavior at the same exact SPL level and DSP settings when bridged to 4ohm. I'd glady do it myself, but I no longer have the CHT subs available to test, though I still have the same iNuke amp.




Perhaps unrelated - perhaps not

We possibly may have heard this same phenomenon on the 18.1 VS at the HuskerOmaha 2011 meet on higher 30hz content in the Kid Kudi song and the Flight of the Phoenix track - both very heavy in 30hz content.
The 18.1VS uses the same driver in a vented alignment. Post 432, 433, and 438.
http://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3975&page=44
and continued discussion here:
http://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3975&page=52

Edited by Archaea - 12/15/13 at 12:39pm
post #777 of 848
Thread Starter 
Attached is the original Realm of Excursion 100hz to 20hz sine wave used in this G2G.

100Hz_to_20Hz_sweep.zip 133k .zip file

This is the file that should be used for the tests. With the DSP settings and AVR settings mimicked I've no doubt this will cause 'distortion' or bottoming at the low end of the sine sweep on the CHT subs at 2-3 lights of signal on the iNuke - before the clip lights light up to indicate clipping is occurring --- just as it did for us on three days.
post #778 of 848
Thread Starter 
Desertdome and Bossobass,

Could I test your theory by disconnecting output from the iNuke, turning up the input very high on the Onkyo AVR subwoofer trims and seeing if I could ever get the clip lights to engage as I turn up the main volume control on dynamic content.

If I can't get the clip lights to engage in doing this it doesn't prove one way or the other because I would need an ossicilscope hooked up to the AVR subwoofer out to verify there is indeed clipping or not. That's a tool I don't have and the test would be inconclusive.

BUT

If I can get the clip lights to engage without any output connected, then that means the clip lights work both for the output section and more importantly to this discussion for the input section. (this is my untested expectation).

I'd try to test this with video documentation if you confirm my theory means anything towards the discussion.




If the above test doesn't help - can you suggest a test I could perform that would?
post #779 of 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Desertdome and Bossobass,
Could I test your theory by disconnecting output from the iNuke, turning up the input very high on the Onkyo AVR subwoofer trims and seeing if I could ever get the clip lights to engage as I turn up the main volume control on dynamic content?

There are four places clipping could potentially occur on the input.
  1. Turning up the Onkyo AVR subwoofer trims
  2. Audyssey increasing the signal too high
  3. Output voltage from the Onkyo too high for the iNuke
  4. PEQ with gain in the iNuke without compensating by lowering gain on the filter tab

I think the first two are less likely since an AVR should be smart enough to never clip digitally. If the subwoofer levels are raised too high, then it should compensate by actually lowering the levels of other channels to maintain the same dB difference between channels without going over 0 dBfs.

To test any of the four you just need to monitor the Inputs meter on the right side of the iNuke software:



I just took a 1 minute clip from Olympus Has Fallen and played it back at -10 dB through JRiver Media Center. With Voxengo GlissEQ (VST plugin) I added a 4 dB boost at 20 Hz similar to what was added to the iNuke/CHT. I had to increase the volume to -9 dB in order to clip. I then increased the boost to 8 dB at 20 Hz similar to what Audyssey plus the iNuke might have done. The signal clips almost continuously at -10 dB on the volume level. Here is the GlissEQ screenshot showing peak levels of +6.4 dBfs. I also took a couple of screenshots using Voxengo SPAN since it shows the number of clipping occurrences. In about 45 seconds it clipped 85,047 times.

I did this with no bass management just to illustrate how easy it is to clip the signal in the digital realm. With bass management the results would have been much worse. If I was using GlissEQ for my PEQ filters, then I would lower the Out gain knob in GlissEQ (top right) to reduce the levels. Instead of making cuts with EQ you can shape as you want with gains, but you always need to reduce the overall gain for a net result of zero gain.




post #780 of 848
Thread Starter 
I haven't tried any of this yet. Yesterday we had a family reunion and went to a Christmas Pageant.

I will play with this though to find out.

Assuming your J-River example plays out like our Saturday scenario - (which is a big assumption) - we are still in the clear. You had to go one DB above our master volume to encounter clipping.

When you encountered your continous clipping at +8 dB at 20hz - I don't think that's especially relevant (aside from the obvious differences in gear/software), because even if we ignore the differences in gear, I don't think we can assume Audyssey increased the 20hz dB by 8 db, when our actual real world testing on Sunday showed Audyssey actually knocked down the boosting at 20hz by a dB or two. Which means we were really only boosting by about 2 or 3dB at 20hz overall. (discounting the DSP cuts at the higher frequencies).

Never the less. I do appreciate the input and will try your suggestion and definately report the results back no matter which way they fall.

My hypothesis on the four potential outcomes
There are four places clipping could potentially occur on the input.
1.Turning up the Onkyo AVR subwoofer trims - we were very likely still in negative (just guessing because in using this AVR at numerous meets over the years which encompases literally dozens of subs - many of which I've published reivews here (outside of meets) - it's almost always negative subwoofer trim on everything when Audyssey calibrates) - only on the weakest of subs like the Pioneer SW8 does it end up positive subwoofer trim.
2.Audyssey increasing the signal too high - Unlikely because in Sunday's retest with Audyssey in the same room on the same equipment with the CHT (and even the HSU) in four different Audyssey runs compared to the baseline frequency response - Audyssey did nothing of the sort - in fact it lowered the 20hz boost in the single most applicable situation by a dB or two as I showed in the post above.
3.Output voltage from the Onkyo too high for the iNuke - Unlikely, but could easily be tested. Again I've use this AVR on dozens of different subs at several different meets, and often at volume levels way louder. I've used the iNuke on over a half dozen different subs and never experienced any 'flatlining' / 'maxing' of volume on any of the situations at -10dB level volume. I think this question could be tested with my multimete at the tested volumes and a voltage output given.
4.PEQ with gain in the iNuke without compensating by lowering gain on the filter tab - I can test this one.


I'm still curious if the visible clip lights would blink if the input voltage is too high, even without output stage connected. I'll do that test too.

Thanks for your testing and feedback!
Edited by Archaea - 12/16/13 at 9:22am
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