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fios pixelation/microblocking

post #1 of 45
1/15/12 at 8:18pm
Thread Starter 
I have a sammy 42 inch 4254 using HDMI with Fios.
During fast camera movements or flashing on the screen, I get macroblocking. This also happened when I had comcast.

Is this normal or should this not be happening. I am getting new HDMI wires to see if this will fix the problem. Could this be my TV? I wouldnt think it would be since I do not get this with bluray movies or when playing 360 or ps3.

I am thinking of getting a new coaxial put it from the box to the basement.

Does anyone else get this with fios or even comcast?
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post #2 of 45
1/16/12 at 6:34am
There's lots of discussion on this topic in the FIOS HD programming AVS section. BTW, awaiting a FIOS installation here this morning. Suggest also checking the Local HD Reception and Info AVS section for a local forum that includes FIOS discussion.-- John
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post #3 of 45
1/16/12 at 7:46am
The macro blocking that you see during fast motion is an issue for many televisions.
When you play DVD's or any other source do you notice the same effect?
Most of the newer TV's have improved in this area.
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post #4 of 45
1/16/12 at 8:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelanger View Post

During fast camera movements or flashing on the screen, I get macroblocking. This also happened when I had comcast.

Is this normal or should this not be happening.

Yes, this is very normal as all broadcast & cable TV is compressed to some degree. A new HDMI cable will make no difference. Connecting cable TV with either component or HDMI will make no difference with the set properly adjusted.

Even Blu-Ray is compressed, but much less than broadcast TV, so it is not noticeable in most cases.
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post #5 of 45
1/16/12 at 8:41am
Thread Starter 
RCbridge I do not see it on DVDs, Video games or Blurays, just TV.
And thanks everyone for the help, I will check out the fios section.

It just seems like it happens to most people. My friends claim they do not see mircblocking on this fios but maybe its just where they live and its less noticable.
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post #6 of 45
1/16/12 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelanger View Post

My friends claim they do not see mircblocking on this fios but maybe its just where they live and its less noticable.

They either
1. Have a small or inferior TV
2. Sit further away from the screen
3. Don't see well
4. Are Lying
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post #7 of 45
1/16/12 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelanger View Post

RCbridge I do not see it on DVDs, Video games or Blurays, just TV.

I can suggest some DVDs where you will certainly see it!
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post #8 of 45
1/16/12 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelanger View Post

RCbridge I do not see it on DVDs, Video games or Blurays, just TV.
And thanks everyone for the help, I will check out the fios section.

It just seems like it happens to most people. My friends claim they do not see mircblocking on this fios but maybe its just where they live and its less noticable.

If you are seeing macroblocking with Fios, something is wrong. What box did Vz give you, that is on that set? Also, bad coax from the Fios box outside to where the Stb or Dvr can cause problems.

I see no problem with getting Vz out there to look over the system, vs trying to solve it for them on here. That is why companies have technicians.
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post #9 of 45
1/16/12 at 12:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

If you are seeing macroblocking with Fios, something is wrong. What box did Vz give you, that is on that set? Also, bad coax from the Fios box outside to where the Stb or Dvr can cause problems.

I see no problem with getting Vz out there to look over the system, vs trying to solve it for them on here. That is why companies have technicians.

They gave me the newer box, its the black one, its not the grey motorola box. I am going to have the coax wire from the box to the basement swapped out to see if that will fix the issue. Does verizon do that for free or should I just get someone in here to do it for me? I know a guy that does cable wires.
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post #10 of 45
1/16/12 at 12:44pm
Again not the color of the box. That is like asking a Blonde chick what kind of car she got, and she goes "Duhh, dummy I got the Red one." We need model number off of the sticker on the bottom of the box.

And there is a direct forum for Verizon over at dslreports.com. As for the coax, you could just have a bum splitter causing the problem, or worst, could be RG-59, not RG-6, or RG-6 with twist on connectors.

Put in a ticket, let them know the same that you stated here, and they should be able to get a tech out to see. Even if the tech does not see any problems while they are there, insist that they do a check on inside wiring, splitters and the such. A lot of stuff can be ran in the office, due to how the equipment is set up, that is on the side of your house, that is owned by them.
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post #11 of 45
1/16/12 at 1:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Again not the color of the box. That is like asking a Blonde chick what kind of car she got, and she goes "Duhh, dummy I got the Red one." We need model number off of the sticker on the bottom of the box.

And there is a direct forum for Verizon over at dslreports.com. As for the coax, you could just have a bum splitter causing the problem, or worst, could be RG-59, not RG-6, or RG-6 with twist on connectors.

Put in a ticket, let them know the same that you stated here, and they should be able to get a tech out to see. Even if the tech does not see any problems while they are there, insist that they do a check on inside wiring, splitters and the such. A lot of stuff can be ran in the office, due to how the equipment is set up, that is on the side of your house, that is owned by them.

Its the Cisco CHS 435HD DVR box. And thanks, I think checking the splitting and running a new coax is my best bet.

I did check the coax and the code on it was e83032 f6ssvv
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post #12 of 45
1/16/12 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelanger View Post


Its the Cisco CHS 435HD DVR box. And thanks, I think checking the splitting and running a new coax is my best bet.

Replacing the coax and splitters is a waste of money. It's a digital picture, it either works or doesn't. If it was a bad piece of coax or splitter you would get "pixelation" not macroblocking. If you had pixelation, it wouldn't limit itself to fast moving scenes, etc.

Anyone who tells you to waste your time and money trying to fix macroblocking, buy buying and running new coax and splitters , obviously has no idea what macroblocking is or is caused from.

As stated above, most has to do with compression and also the quality of the Tv itself or other equipment being used.

I have never seen or heard of a bad splitter or bad coax causing macroblocking and will kindly eat crow for someone who can prove otherwise, preferably the guy who is suggesting someone wastes their time and money doing so, gregzoll.
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post #13 of 45
1/16/12 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelanger View Post

Its the Cisco CHS 435HD DVR box. And thanks, I think checking the splitting and running a new coax is my best bet.

I did check the coax and the code on it was e83032 f6ssvv

That code means nothing to me, unless I do a search on a search engine to see if anything comes up. Doing a search, it comes up as RG-6QS (Quad Shield), which is really overkill, due to most places do not need it, and it needs special connectors that are for Quad Shield, to properly terminate the ends.

Most likely the connectors are culprit, and if you do use a different splitter, make sure that it is correct for use on their system. That is a Cablecard Type DVR, so you may be able to get away with just getting your own TiVo3 and get cable cards from VZ. You will lose PPV & VOD on the Tivo3.

But going back to the original problem, replace the ends on that cable with compression fittings for Quad Shield RG-6, and make sure all of the connections are tight back to the ONT. Also to see if the coax is culprit, just hook a run from the ONT to that stb to see if it clears. If it does, then you know that pulling a new run of coax will be in your future.
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post #14 of 45
1/16/12 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

That code means nothing to me, unless I do a search on a search engine to see if anything comes up. Doing a search, it comes up as RG-6QS (Quad Shield), which is really overkill, due to most places do not need it, and it needs special connectors that are for Quad Shield, to properly terminate the ends.

Most likely the connectors are culprit, and if you do use a different splitter, make sure that it is correct for use on their system. That is a Cablecard Type DVR, so you may be able to get away with just getting your own TiVo3 and get cable cards from VZ. You will lose PPV & VOD on the Tivo3.

But going back to the original problem, replace the ends on that cable with compression fittings for Quad Shield RG-6, and make sure all of the connections are tight back to the ONT. Also to see if the coax is culprit, just hook a run from the ONT to that stb to see if it clears. If it does, then you know that pulling a new run of coax will be in your future.

As I previously stated, there is a lot of time and money involved in this suggestion. Especially when it is not the solution.
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post #15 of 45
1/16/12 at 1:53pm
And gregzoll, could you please explain to me how it is possible for a bad splitter or coax or coax connector to be the culprit when it comes to the OPs problem of macroblocking during fast moving or flash bright scenes?

And please, feel free to use the most technical language possible. No need to dumb it down for me and everyone else who would be interested.
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post #16 of 45
1/16/12 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weags View Post

Replacing the coax and splitters is a waste of money.

Agree 100%!!

Since FIOS is as good as it gets, my suggestions are;

1. Sit further from the TV
2. Adjust the picture to a darker/softer setting. A bright/punchy picture will exhibit more compression artifacts & mosquito noise.
3. Get a plasma as they do not show the detrimental effects of compression nearly as much. They are generally darker & softer than most LCD TV's by nature.
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post #17 of 45
1/16/12 at 2:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Rules View Post

Agree 100%!!

Since FIOS is as good as it gets, my suggestions are;

1. Sit further from the TV
2. Adjust the picture to a darker/softer setting. A bright/punchy picture will exhibit more compression artifacts & mosquito noise.
3. Get a plasma as they do not show the detrimental effects of compression nearly as much. They are generally darker & softer than most LCD TV's by nature.

I do have a plasma but its older, I do want to buy a new one, so maybe that will help. I am sure the splitter is not the issue since its brand new and the same thing happened with comcast. It does only happen with fast moving scenes and I use your suggestion in turning down the brightness a bit so I hope that helps.

Thanks for your help everyone.
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post #18 of 45
1/16/12 at 2:26pm
Yes, as much I like FIOS, it still can't compare to a Blu-Ray when it comes to noise. The feed coming from FIOS looks identical to what the signal from an outside antenna delivers.

The problem is that the best broadcast picture in my area is not carried on FIOS since it is out of market. The Baltimore CBS, ABC, PBS & MY TV affiliates deliver a noticeably sharper/ noise free picture than their DC counterparts.
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post #19 of 45
1/17/12 at 4:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelanger View Post

I do have a plasma but its older, I do want to buy a new one, so maybe that will help. I am sure the splitter is not the issue since its brand new and the same thing happened with comcast. It does only happen with fast moving scenes and I use your suggestion in turning down the brightness a bit so I hope that helps.

Thanks for your help everyone.

Weags is correct as this is not a signal issue with your cable feed. This is a problem with the deinterlacer in your tv. The older 720p, 768p televisions had poor deinerlacing hardware/software in them.
My 2005 RCA DLP had this problem with the 1080i channels. When I got my 8g Pioneer Kuro I had both tvs side by side and when the macroblocking occured on the RCA, the kuro picture was flawless.

All you have to do is set the output resolution of your cable box to 720p and the problem will go away as your STB is now doing the deinterlacing of the 1080i signal and converting it to a progressive image to display on your tv.

The reason blu ray doesn't do this is because it is already a progressive image (1080p24) and the player will convert the video to match the resolution of your tv.
Same goes for dvd players, xbox360, playstation3, etc.

I haven't seen this occuring on any newer 1080p televisions especially the high end models.
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post #20 of 45
1/18/12 at 7:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post

Weags is correct as this is not a signal issue with your cable feed. This is a problem with the deinterlacer in your tv. The older 720p, 768p televisions had poor deinerlacing hardware/software in them.
My 2005 RCA DLP had this problem with the 1080i channels. When I got my 8g Pioneer Kuro I had both tvs side by side and when the macroblocking occured on the RCA, the kuro picture was flawless.

All you have to do is set the output resolution of your cable box to 720p and the problem will go away as your STB is now doing the deinterlacing of the 1080i signal and converting it to a progressive image to display on your tv.

The reason blu ray doesn't do this is because it is already a progressive image (1080p24) and the player will convert the video to match the resolution of your tv.
Same goes for dvd players, xbox360, playstation3, etc.

I haven't seen this occuring on any newer 1080p televisions especially the high end models.

I did do this and its still doing it. I may have to just have a tech come and see if he can cut off the end of the coax and add a new one connector, just to see if that helps. The pin that goes into the box is slightly bent, not sure if that matters but it cant hurt to have them add a new one. It will be much easier than swapping out the wire
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post #21 of 45
1/19/12 at 5:22am
Make sure that he uses the compression fittings for quad-shield rg-6. If they do not know you have quad-shield, yes you could have problems again. There are some shows that will always have noise in them, but you should not have it on every channel at a whole.

And there is also a mis-understanding by some as to what the difference is in pixelation and macroblocking, and telling people to sit farther back, or adjust is not the complete package it finding out what is going on. A lot can be the set top, but in your case, that box is newer.

Just keep us updated and also hopefully you get a decent tech that does not rush through the job and leaves you hanging.
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post #22 of 45
1/19/12 at 10:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Make sure that he uses the compression fittings for quad-shield rg-6. If they do not know you have quad-shield, yes you could have problems again. There are some shows that will always have noise in them, but you should not have it on every channel at a whole.

And there is also a mis-understanding by some as to what the difference is in pixelation and macroblocking, and telling people to sit farther back, or adjust is not the complete package it finding out what is going on. A lot can be the set top, but in your case, that box is newer.

Just keep us updated and also hopefully you get a decent tech that does not rush through the job and leaves you hanging.

Ok thanks, I do have a tech coming out next Saturday, so I will keep you posted.
I do have a 768p tv (the sammy 4254) so it could always be the tv right?
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post #23 of 45
1/19/12 at 10:18am
Doubtful, but it could. LCD's are more notorious to show noise than Plasma's, regardless of the set, but I would not fault the set as being the culprit.
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post #24 of 45
1/19/12 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelanger View Post

I did do this and its still doing it. I may have to just have a tech come and see if he can cut off the end of the coax and add a new one connector, just to see if that helps. The pin that goes into the box is slightly bent, not sure if that matters but it cant hurt to have them add a new one. It will be much easier than swapping out the wire

If your picture looks like this then it is your tv doing it and not a signal issue:
http://www.hifi-writer.com/blog/2008...#20080204-0947

Here are some pictures of what a possible signal issue would look like:
http://www.gizmolovers.com.nyud.net/...blocking-1.jpg
http://www.gizmolovers.com.nyud.net/...blocking-2.jpg
http://www.gizmolovers.com.nyud.net/...blocking-3.jpg
http://www.gizmolovers.com.nyud.net/...blocking-4.jpg
http://www.gizmolovers.com.nyud.net/...blocking-5.jpg
http://www.gizmolovers.com.nyud.net/...blocking-6.jpg
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post #25 of 45
1/19/12 at 7:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Make sure that he uses the compression fittings for quad-shield rg-6. If they do not know you have quad-shield, yes you could have problems again. There are some shows that will always have noise in them, but you should not have it on every channel at a whole.

And there is also a mis-understanding by some as to what the difference is in pixelation and macroblocking, and telling people to sit farther back, or adjust is not the complete package it finding out what is going on. A lot can be the set top, but in your case, that box is newer.

Just keep us updated and also hopefully you get a decent tech that does not rush through the job and leaves you hanging.

This is getting ridiculous. Please disregard anyone who tells you macroblocking is caused by a bad coax or RF signal. It is a waste of your time and the techs time to be changing wires and ends. Be it the wire, the fitting or the "quad-shielded" cable as gregzoll suggests(most cable companies have gone to tri-shield btw),macroblocking is NOT caused by any coaxial deficiencies.

And please gregzoll, could you please explain this misunderstanding people have about the difference between macroblocking and pixelation. I'd be real curious to hear it from someone as "knowledgable" about the subject, such as yourself.


Telling people who experience MACROBLOCKING during bright or fast scenes to sit farther back or adjust the set, or get a new set or accept the fact that pretty much any tv will show MACROBLOCKING depending on the quality of the source, are perfectly good solutions to the problem. Having them spend money on new coax or tech visits to correct MACROBLOCKING is not a good solution.

Telling people who experience non scene specific PIXELATION to sit farther back or adjust the set, or get a new set or accept the fact that pretty much any tv will show PIXELATION, are NOT solutions to the problem. Having them spend money on new coax or tech visits to correct PIXELATION would be sound advice in that case.

To the OP , I'd be willing to bet the problem your having doesn't look anything like the second set of pictures that Jed1 provided.
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post #26 of 45
1/19/12 at 8:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weags View Post

This is getting ridiculous. Please disregard anyone who tells you macroblocking is caused by a bad coax or RF signal. It is a waste of your time and the techs time to be changing wires and ends. Be it the wire, the fitting or the "quad-shielded" cable as gregzoll suggests(most cable companies have gone to tri-shield btw),macroblocking is NOT caused by any coaxial deficiencies.

And please gregzoll, could you please explain this misunderstanding people have about the difference between macroblocking and pixelation. I'd be real curious to hear it from someone as "knowledgable" about the subject, such as yourself.


Telling people who experience MACROBLOCKING during bright or fast scenes to sit farther back or adjust the set, or get a new set or accept the fact that pretty much any tv will show MACROBLOCKING depending on the quality of the source, are perfectly good solutions to the problem. Having them spend money on new coax or tech visits to correct MACROBLOCKING is not a good solution.

Telling people who experience non scene specific PIXELATION to sit farther back or adjust the set, or get a new set or accept the fact that pretty much any tv will show PIXELATION, are NOT solutions to the problem. Having them spend money on new coax or tech visits to correct PIXELATION would be sound advice in that case.

To the OP , I'd be willing to bet the problem your having doesn't look anything like the second set of pictures that Jed1 provided.

You just love dumping on every thread out there don't you. Again, and I may have to say this slow enough for you to really understand.

U n t i l t h e O P g e t s a t e c h o u t, t h e r e i s n o w a y t o k n o w w h o i s a t f a u l t. . . Is that slow enough for you, or should I put pictures up for you to make sense of the technical aspect that the OP is trying to figure out if it is their end, or what. Just for you to know, FIOS should never have pixelation or macroblocking, even with fast action sports. Where does the problem lie? Who the hell knows, until the tech comes in.

I will tell you this, if the orig. tech that did the install used the wrong ends on quad shield rg-6, right there that will cause problems. Anything else you want to know, or should I leave it up to you to finish trolling posts after I have left.
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post #27 of 45
1/20/12 at 12:42am
You're simply wrong if you think that the picture out of FiOS should be perfect at all times. Some channels are just crap to begin with (Rainbow, NBC Universal, Discovery), while others apparently turn to crap when converted to MPEG2 (Scripps) but aren't as bad in MPEG4. Hard to get true comparisons to DirecTV considering that they lock everything down. Food HD on FiOS is pretty nasty if you go frame by frame. These are from a recording I just made on Food HD of whatever crap reality show happens to be on at this time of night. I assure you that the nastiness is not due to any sort of signal issue, but is entirely the fault of excessive compression.






My point demonstrated, FiOS is still better than providers like Comcast, TWC, Dish, and U-verse, who all have the same poor sources to deal with, but also cram too many channels into too little space. Verizon could take better advantage of their additional capacity and crank up the average bitrates - Food sits at something like 14 on average and will spike up to near 18, but an average closer to 17 might result in a less sucktastic picture on wipes, dissolves, and fast pans.
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post #28 of 45
1/20/12 at 4:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

You just love dumping on every thread out there don't you. Again, and I may have to say this slow enough for you to really understand.

U n t i l t h e O P g e t s a t e c h o u t, t h e r e i s n o w a y t o k n o w w h o i s a t f a u l t. . . Is that slow enough for you, or should I put pictures up for you to make sense of the technical aspect that the OP is trying to figure out if it is their end, or what. Just for you to know, FIOS should never have pixelation or macroblocking, even with fast action sports. Where does the problem lie? Who the hell knows, until the tech comes in.

I will tell you this, if the orig. tech that did the install used the wrong ends on quad shield rg-6, right there that will cause problems. Anything else you want to know, or should I leave it up to you to finish trolling posts after I have left.

Not trolling at all. Just correcting your misinformation so that the OP does not waste time and money "fixing" something that cannot be fixed with coax signal improvements.

I believe coyoteaz provided plenty of detail and screenshots proving that even the mighty fios is still affected by compression.

You do not need to repeat what you have stated any slower. I understand exactly what you are saying and its just as wrong as the first time you suggested it.
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post #29 of 45
1/20/12 at 5:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

Just for you to know, FIOS should never have pixelation or macroblocking, even with fast action sports.

Fios delivers exactly what it receives from the source; which is already compressed. Are you insinuating that FIOS is capable of removing the compression related artifacts that already exist in the source? I guess you think that OTA is perfect as well?
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post #30 of 45
1/20/12 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Rules View Post

Fios delivers exactly what it receives from the source; which is already compressed. Are you insinuating that FIOS is capable of removing the compression related artifacts that already exist in the source? I guess you think that OTA is perfect as well?

Haha yeah that magical Fios.

I think it has been made clear enough by gregzoll himself that he has no idea what he is talking about. It is par for the course with this guy. Look at some of his other postings and one will soon realize not to listen to a word he says.
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