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JTR Captivator S (Sealed) - Page 14

post #391 of 522
The CapS1 is a bad a$$ sub and would be a great upgrade.
post #392 of 522
Ok, dual CapS1's ordered. biggrin.gif

Been using SVS since 2006, starting with dual PC12-Ultras to my current SB13's. Anyone interested in a pair of 2 week old SB13's? wink.gif
Edited by Cvetan1 - 5/9/13 at 1:31pm
post #393 of 522
Congrats on your purchase. I love my Cap!!! Just curious, why dual S1's and not an S2? Location?
post #394 of 522
HI,

Congrat, I love my S1 too.

Dual S1 or One S1 with 4000W amp and the other Passive S1 if due to location problem. That was Jeff suggested to me because the freight for S2 to my Country is crazy.

Marcus
post #395 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

Congrats on your purchase. I love my Cap!!! Just curious, why dual S1's and not an S2? Location?

Yep, location. I'll have an S1 in each front corner, behind each main.
post #396 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post

Congrats on your purchase. I love my Cap!!! Just curious, why dual S1's and not an S2? Location?
So, just got dual S2s myself -- should address location AND deliver max output? Any info on these amps? -- as in a manual of sorts, detailing functioning, specs, etc.? Not even sure what the amp is, or I would look it up. Just throwing this out there for some handy help -- just got the units in yesterday, so have not even really looked that closely at the amp to find model/manufacturer -- nor have I asked Jeff, but someone here might know quickly where info might be located...?
post #397 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emaych View Post

So, just got dual S2s myself -- should address location AND deliver max output? Any info on these amps? -- as in a manual of sorts, detailing functioning, specs, etc.? Not even sure what the amp is, or I would look it up. Just throwing this out there for some handy help -- just got the units in yesterday, so have not even really looked that closely at the amp to find model/manufacturer -- nor have I asked Jeff, but someone here might know quickly where info might be located...?
Speakerpower.net They are made and assembled in the US.
These amps are some of the best the industry has to offer.wink.gif
They are mostly used in Pro applications so they don't break a sweat in HT use.
Extremely efficient.
Chris W
post #398 of 522
^^^Thank you very much for that. I thought this might be the quickest way to get to the information I sought, and AVS does not disappoint! Actually, after posting I did check out the amp and couldn't find any specific identifiers, so this turns out to be my best lead at the moment. Thanks again! -- any idea of the model/design designation for the S2?
post #399 of 522
S2 = SP1-4000 plate amp $1399
S1 = SP1-2400 plate amp $1199
Jeff also specifies the DSP program. This is not available with a direct buy.
Chris W
post #400 of 522
Again, thank you so much for your help -- got it! Did go to the site and saw they are for manufacturers only, so guess I'll just play around to see what the various features are. Any recommended volume setting? -- I guess I might be inclined to go halfway and do the rest through my processor? Wasn't going to rerun Audyssey just yet....
post #401 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emaych View Post

Again, thank you so much for your help -- got it! Did go to the site and saw they are for manufacturers only, so guess I'll just play around to see what the various features are. Any recommended volume setting? -- I guess I might be inclined to go halfway and do the rest through my processor? Wasn't going to rerun Audyssey just yet....
What I did was set the level with my SPL meter to 75 db prior to running Audyssey.
post #402 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

S2 = SP1-4000 plate amp $1399
S1 = SP1-2400 plate amp $1199
Jeff also specifies the DSP program. This is not available with a direct buy.
Chris W
Have not tried this experimentally, but just wondered if I could get a quick answer: Can one leave the volume knob on the amp at "0" and get sound? I have mine at "1", just to be at what I thought was the minimum volume setting, but it occurs to me that perhaps zero is the actual minimum where it still produces sound?
post #403 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emaych View Post

Have not tried this experimentally, but just wondered if I could get a quick answer: Can one leave the volume knob on the amp at "0" and get sound? I have mine at "1", just to be at what I thought was the minimum volume setting, but it occurs to me that perhaps zero is the actual minimum where it still produces sound?
When you stated earlier you were planning to turn the amp gain half way up I was waiting to see what would happened.smile.gif
Since the amp is so powerful then having the gain set at 1 or 2 clicks from 0 is normal. I have a pair of SubM HPs & they are both set at 3 clicks from 0 or 3 clicks from being turned all the way down. Anymore and Audyssey sets the trim at -12 which is to low. Set your amp gain knob at 1 or 2 clicks then use your avr trim to adjust the levels from there. I like to have Audyssey set the trim between 0 and -7.
Chris W

I think 0 is all the way up and 00 is all the way down on the amp gain. If you cant get it to 75db then you may have to use attenuators to cut the signal down.
Does you avr have Audyssey XT32 or just XT?
Edited by countryWV - 5/17/13 at 3:27pm
post #404 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


When you stated earlier you were planning to turn the amp gain half way up I was waiting to see what would happened.smile.gif
Since the amp is so powerful then having the gain set at 1 or 2 clicks from 0 is normal. I have a pair of SubM HPs & they are both set at 3 clicks from 0 or 3 clicks from being turned all the way down. Anymore and Audyssey sets the trim at -12 which is to low. Set your amp gain knob at 1 or 2 clicks then use your avr trim to adjust the levels from there. I like to have Audyssey set the trim between 0 and -7.
Chris W

I think 0 is all the way up and 00 is all the way down on the amp gain. If you cant get it to 75db then you may have to use attenuators to cut the signal down.
Does you avr have Audyssey XT32 or just XT?
Well, I think I did start at three notches up, then went to two, got down to one, but never tried zero. You know, I've never used a sound meter, but it might be advised. I was just using the Audyssey sub settings from my two Snell 1800s -- two passive ported 18" units with a large NAD amp driving them. Of course I was not quite fulfilled for years with these subs in the mix, they had to be set lower than I wanted because they had a tendency to overdrive just as I thought things would get interesting -- I'd hear that nasty "THWOCK" that would let me know I was over capacity.

So my LF has been somewhat lackluster for the years I've had them. Thought I would do something about it. Got these two CAPTIVATOR S2s and let the old Audyssey settings stand just for fun or to experiment, which obviously, being that it was calibrated to underperforming subs, unleashed the KRAKEN on my theater room with the twin S2s! Then I reset Audyssey with my new two and all of a sudden my subs were polite again. Forget that! Even though I had moved the two Snell's out -- they are bigger than the S2s -- I brought them right back in to redo Audyssey using their low output to set my reference for the S2s. Then switched back to the S2s, and took the Snell's out of the mix.

I am happy again, but think I might have to go with processor adjustment of -15 (max down with my Integra 9.8) for the sub channel, up just one notch on the sub amp itself, overall volume at between -13 and -17, and possibly dial out all the bass from the LFE channel (that would be -10) using the post-Audyssey equalization adjustments that my version provides -- this might allow for tolerable levels while watching CABIN IN THE WOODS, or similar fare. Looking forward to tonight's movie watching -- had to cut my first listen short and give my ears a break! These subs seem to shake the whole room from the outside -- like the theater room was being violently jostled by a cave troll!
post #405 of 522
So...was playing around with my new dual S2s and had an experience I did not necessarily expect to have, but was anticipating somewhat nevertheless. I've been trying to ascertain standard levels that work for me in my environment, so have been going through my LFE extreme tracks one by one. Part of why I upgraded was that I used to overdrive my previous subs on certain challenging material, if I had not made sufficient adjustment to undercut the norms for playback that I usually went with.

What I had were passive subs, so they were matched with an amp that may have factored into this overdriving I thought, but with the S2s, my hope was that they were entirely protected from monster surges of signal that would cause the drivers to reach excursion limit. I even asked Jeff about this prior to purchase and he said they could identify such errant overwhelming material and kick in with safeguards to prevent what happened.

So the S2 drivers did reach limit on an old standby for producing that effect -- BLACK HAWK DOWN, about 35 minutes in the chopper rotor blades produced repeated overexcursion with every blade rotation. I thought I had made enough overall volume adjustment, and sub adjustment all the way to the lowest at -15 on Audyssey (volume on the units themselves was zero), to keep from even scaring myself that this might happen....but no. So the question is, since it did happen, what are the protections built into these actually doing?

Anyone else have this kind of experience?
post #406 of 522
How do you know that the drivers reached over excursion?
post #407 of 522
^^^Because I leave one uncovered, sometimes with a lamp on it to see what the drivers are doing. Thought it was just prudent in these beginning stages of gaining familiarity with my new S2s to know what kind of sound accompanies what kind of displacement is going on with the drivers. In the case of BLACK HAWK DOWN above, the drivers were hitting their excursion limits, i.e., snapping at the end extension of the foam surrounds, with every rotor sound effect until I stopped the disc -- like "THWOCK THWOCK THWOCK". This had happened with my previous subs, so I knew the material to be challenging, but thought that if it were too much of a pulse for the units to reproduce cleanly, they had some internal recognition/fail safe feature(s) to prevent driver damage. So why did these safeguards not intervene?
post #408 of 522
Are you sure you're not clipping the signal getting sent to the sub? Sounds to me like something is not setup properly in your PRE. I've had no issues with that scene with my old 2007 era SVS PCU's.

Mike
post #409 of 522
^^^Well, yes, you are right to think the Audyssey set-up is not exactly proper -- it was set to another pair of subs which do not have nearly the output of the S2s, so that within the reference array, the new S2s would then be programmed to be much louder, and depending just how fine-tuned Audyssey might be to the different frequencies, some of the different ranges these subs put out would obviously be at variance from the previously set ones. So I am aware that I am operating outside of sound field reference standards, but my question was about the internal protections these subs themselves are equipped with, to guard against a signal which would overdrive them -- for whatever reason. Any feedback there?
post #410 of 522
I'm sure Jeff can answer your question about the amp. I'd be hard pressed to believe you are overdriving the subwoofer. I'd start by disabling audyssey, recalibrate and start over. Sounds like setup issue or maybe something faulty with the sub or amp? I'd call Jeff and see what he has to say.
post #411 of 522
^^^Thanks for your help. I've got the set-up I want. I like the sound. It is not the standard set-up, that is the way I want it. Any sub can be EASILY overdriven, I'm quite quite sure. I just wanted to know why the amp's internal protections did not kick in. If there is no answer here, I guess I could call Jeff.

Any member here know the answer?
post #412 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emaych View Post

Any sub can be EASILY overdriven, I'm quite quite sure. I just wanted to know why the amp's internal protections did not kick in. If there is no answer here, I guess I could call Jeff.

Any sub? Not likely; there are definitely manufacturers who are very good about preventing that from occurring. Whether or not you were able to push the S2 beyond it's protection mechanisms is unknown; based upon Jeff's past history I somehow doubt it, but I suppose anything is possible. To suggest that any subwoofer can "EASILY" be overdriven is completely inaccurate though.
post #413 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emaych View Post

^^^Thanks for your help. I've got the set-up I want. I like the sound. It is not the standard set-up, that is the way I want it. Any sub can be EASILY overdriven, I'm quite quite sure. I just wanted to know why the amp's internal protections did not kick in. If there is no answer here, I guess I could call Jeff.

Any member here know the answer?

First off you should run audyssey on the subs that will be used. Its calibrating for different frequency responses of the different subs. Audyssey has been known to boost down low at times. Was it repeatable with audyssey turned off?

If it was f'in irene, that has high levels at 6hz.

Jeff uses the 4000 watt amp on a single driver in the OS, and we heard the captivator on the 4000 watt amp at one of the KC shootouts. Jeff has said the drivers can take a good beating and after him turning it to 11 on that ported 4000 watt I believe him.

Some limiters can make bad sound as well when pushed hard enough. Amp clipping or clipped signal can sound bad as well. I believe only vendors can get the dsp for those amps so not many will know the implemetation.

Anyways contacting Jeff to ask him seems like a good idea. Report back your findings. smile.gif
post #414 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Any sub? Not likely; there are definitely manufacturers who are very good about preventing that from occurring. Whether or not you were able to push the S2 beyond it's protection mechanisms is unknown; based upon Jeff's past history I somehow doubt it, but I suppose anything is possible. To suggest that any subwoofer can "EASILY" be overdriven is completely inaccurate though.
Well, of course my experience and knowledge is quite limited, but it would seem axiomatic that if the sub is producing sound through excursion, and that excursion is limited to the parameters of the design, then turning it up is all that is required to reach the limitation -- that seems like an easy recipe to overdrive. From what I have observed, particularly low pulses demand greater excursion -- tweak those up and you have your overdrive -- however it might be done, through overall volume, sub volume on Audyssey, turning up the sub dial on back, or a combination.

That said, I was surprised in this case, but am ever wary of it, because I think it has happened with every sub I've ever owned. I just want to know what the internal protections are to know why it happened as it did.
post #415 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

First off you should run audyssey on the subs that will be used. Its calibrating for different frequency responses of the different subs. Audyssey has been known to boost down low at times. Was it repeatable with audyssey turned off?

If it was f'in irene, that has high levels at 6hz.

Jeff uses the 4000 watt amp on a single driver in the OS, and we heard the captivator on the 4000 watt amp at one of the KC shootouts. Jeff has said the drivers can take a good beating and after him turning it to 11 on that ported 4000 watt I believe him.

Some limiters can make bad sound as well when pushed hard enough. Amp clipping or clipped signal can sound bad as well. I believe only vendors can get the dsp for those amps so not many will know the implemetation.

Anyways contacting Jeff to ask him seems like a good idea. Report back your findings. smile.gif
Thanks for your thoughts Luke -- I did do that (run Audyssey with the S2s), and definitely know why some are surprised that within the partameters of the Audyssey mix, that any issues should arise. I don't favor the sub being down so low that it is "well integrated" into the sound field. I want it dominant, overpowering, potent and mighty. I didn't even play around with that mix much to bring those characteristics forward. In fact, it was such a critical disappointment that within minutes I just put my old subs back in the room, reran Audyssey without the S2s, took the old subs back out, then put the S2s back in (perhaps I should explain that before I did the initial recalibration with the S2s, I just inserted them into my old subs' calibration model, after disabling the old ones, and liked what I was hearing).

I'm sure purists disfavor and/or abhor this approach, and I'm equally certain it plays a major role in why my subs overdrove on BLACK HAWK DOWN. But that is the sound I was looking for and why I spent all this money to get these beauties. And let me say, I'm not at all unhappy, in fact I'm delirious to be getting what escaped me for a good number of years with the old subs (dual SNELL 1800s).

And as I've said, I was not taken completely by surprise that these overdrove, that is why I leave one sub uncovered and illuminated, so I can gauge how close overdriving might be -- and I make notes on all my threatening passages -- date, blu-ray title of course, exact time of threatening passages, all volumes, etc. to know in advance where the limits are. That is what I was doing playing BLACK HAWK DOWN -- went to the spots in my previous years old notes where my other subs overdrove, and viola, same thing here. In fact, I was spending some good quality time that day going over all my reference standards to set the new acceptable levels to get the absolute limit out of peformance.

So I did wonder about the internal protections -- what are they intended to do if not prevent a pulse from causing driver overexcursion?

In any event, I'm amazed at what you report with the single CAPTIVATOR and 4000 watt amp. My amp is all the way at zero, the Audyssey adjustment is at -15 -- all the way down, and I currently listen at -15.5 overall volume versus the -13.5 I used to, and still! -- I have also used the post-Audyssey tone adjustment to take all the bass out of the sub channel to avoid scaring myself!

So it is very hard to imagine why my experience seems so radically different -- I cannot fathom turning that dial any further up!
Edited by Emaych - 6/3/13 at 10:18am
post #416 of 522
You need to cut the signal strength down some. Look at parts express for some in-line attenuators. 10db would be enough.
The amp gain should be on at least a couple clicks and Audyssey needs to be no lower than -10 but -5 or higher would be better. Any lower and its not working correctly. Try setting the Audyssey mic back as far as you can from the subs.
This could have something to do with the sub bottoming out although the THAWOCK sound is usually the driver being knocked out of excursion. Make sure the amp is all the way down and not up as the gain knob #s are confusing.smile.gif
That's just a few random thoughts.
Chris
post #417 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emaych View Post

Thanks for your thoughts Luke -- I did do that (run Audyssey with the S2s), and definitely know why some are surprised that within the partameters of the Audyssey mix, that any issues should arise. I don't favor the sub being down so low that it is "well integrated" into the sound field. I want it dominant, overpowering, potent and mighty. I didn't even play around with that mix much to bring those characteristics forward. In fact, it was such a critical disappointment that within minutes I just put my old subs back in the room, reran Audyssey without the S2s, took the old subs back out, then put the S2s back in (perhaps I should explain that before I did the initial recalibration with the S2s, I just inserted them into my old subs' calibration model, after disabling the old ones, and liked what I was hearing).

I'm sure purists disfavor and/or abhor this approach, and I'm equally certain it plays a major role in why my subs overdrove on BLACK HAWK DOWN. But that is the sound I was looking for and why I spent all this money to get these beauties. And let me say, I'm not at all unhappy, in fact I'm delirious to be getting what escaped me for a good number of years with the old subs (dual SNELL 1800s).

And as I've said, I was not taken completely by surprise that these overdrove, that is why I leave one sub uncovered and illuminated, so I can gauge how close overdriving might be -- and I make notes on all my threatening passages -- date, blu-ray title of course, exact time of threatening passages, all volumes, etc. to know in advance where the limits are. That is what I was doing playing BLACK HAWK DOWN -- went to the spots in my previous years old notes where my other subs overdrove, and viola, same thing here. In fact, I was spending some good quality time that day going over all my reference standards to set the new acceptable levels to get the absolute limit out of peformance.

So I did wonder about the internal protections -- what are they intended to do if not prevent a pulse from causing driver overexcursion?

In any event, I'm amazed at what you report with the single CAPTIVATOR and 4000 watt amp. My amp is all the way at zero, the Audyssey adjustment is at -15 -- all the way down, and I currently listen at -15.5 overall volume versus the -13.5 I used to, and still! -- I have also used the post-Audyssey tone adjustment to take all the bass out of the sub channel to avoid scaring myself!

So it is very hard to imagine why my experience seems so radically different -- I cannot fathom turning that dial any further up!
I think the problem you are having when you just swap in the new more capable sub is that it is playing off the old subs settings in which case the input signal to your new sub is now way too high?
post #418 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

You need to cut the signal strength down some. Look at parts express for some in-line attenuators. 10db would be enough.
The amp gain should be on at least a couple clicks and Audyssey needs to be no lower than -10 but -5 or higher would be better. Any lower and its not working correctly. Try setting the Audyssey mic back as far as you can from the subs.
This could have something to do with the sub bottoming out although the THAWOCK sound is usually the driver being knocked out of excursion. Make sure the amp is all the way down and not up as the gain knob #s are confusing.smile.gif
That's just a few random thoughts.
Chris
Emaych,

Like Chris said, the numbers on the amp are confusing.

I don't know about internal protections, but I do know that on my S2, 0 volume is all the way up, not all the way down. When I ran Audyssey with the amp on the S2 at 0, I ended up with very disappointing results because Audyssey could not handle the high volume of the test signal. When set the level of the S2 to 75 db using a sound level meter prior to running Audyssey, I got the results that I was looking for. By the way, in my room, with the prepro volume at 0, 75 db is achieved with a setting of minus 12 on the S2. You will probably have to turn it lower since you have 2.

If you set the level using prepro or AVR's test tones prior to running Audyssey, I would bet that you will get the output that you are looking for long before overdriving the sub, if that is what is happening. If you want more output at that point, you can bump up the level on the AVR. This should work a lot better, because you will be turning up a signal that is based the S2's and not your other subs.

Like someone said above, the sound you are hearing could be because your other subs do not have as much output down low, so the already capable low end of the S2's is getting boosted when it does not need to. It may be that you are hitting excursion limits in the subsonic frequencies when the audible output is where you want it to be.
post #419 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

Emaych,

Like Chris said, the numbers on the amp are confusing.

I don't know about internal protections, but I do know that on my S2, 0 volume is all the way up, not all the way down. When I ran Audyssey with the amp on the S2 at 0, I ended up with very disappointing results because Audyssey could not handle the high volume of the test signal. When set the level of the S2 to 75 db using a sound level meter prior to running Audyssey, I got the results that I was looking for. By the way, in my room, with the prepro volume at 0, 75 db is achieved with a setting of minus 12 on the S2. You will probably have to turn it lower since you have 2.

If you set the level using prepro or AVR's test tones prior to running Audyssey, I would bet that you will get the output that you are looking for long before overdriving the sub, if that is what is happening. If you want more output at that point, you can bump up the level on the AVR. This should work a lot better, because you will be turning up a signal that is based the S2's and not your other subs.

Like someone said above, the sound you are hearing could be because your other subs do not have as much output down low, so the already capable low end of the S2's is getting boosted when it does not need to. It may be that you are hitting excursion limits in the subsonic frequencies when the audible output is where you want it to be.
CountryWv and Jedirun -- you just might have something there -- I've got to say that did not occur to me. I started it out at "1" (or perhaps this is "-1"), then turned it down (or up) to zero, and just assumed I made it safer, lower. So perhaps I've had the thing all the way up! That would make some sense in light of what other people are saying. I will do this test when I get home tonight. I would like some greater flexibility down, but to tell the truth, I've never used sound meters and always just favored my judgment vis a vis setting LF to taste. So here I'd done all my test firing of bass favorites and advanced note taking when all my numbers will now be thrown off -- oh well, I can think of worse ways to spend time than enjoy my old standards all over again!
post #420 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

I think the problem you are having when you just swap in the new more capable sub is that it is playing off the old subs settings in which case the input signal to your new sub is now way too high?
Yes, that is exactly what I was saying, and what I preferred. But now if I got the volume dial wrong, it shows me why the test signal Audyssey calibrated from for the S2s was so out of whack that it made the subs disappointingly meek.
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