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How do I extract 11.1 surround from 9.1 using two AVRs? - Page 2

post #31 of 55
1/19/12 at 8:08pm
Awesome guys. I knew this wasn't such a crazy question but couldn't figure out a straightforward way to sequence the processors. Probably because I didn't realize the 9 channels could be any combination... I assumed heights and wides were exclusive options.

Maybe one day I'll have to ask how to expand to 22 channels or something.
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post #32 of 55
1/20/12 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post

Agreed. Not that the thought in itself is crazy though, IMO. My biggest problem with sequential matrix processing currently would be the kludge of multiple gain stages, ADDA steps, and volume control stages. But I think this would be fantastically fun to experiment with on an end-user level in the right room.

Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Here's the best way to do it with two AVRs.



The PLII decoder simulates how PLIIx works. The trickiest part is finding a way to invert the Rs signal feeding into the PLII decoder. (Inverting the output is easy by just swapping the speaker terminals.)

If the PLII decoder has an XLR stereo input, then the + and - terminals of the XLR signal can be swapped. If you cannot invert the signal, then use the way Sanjay described.

This question is for both you (Roger), and Sanjay:

The 1009 will actually process in this manner?

We already established that it won't actually process 11.1, with wide + height enabled at the same time. If it would, just adding another amplifier would be suitable.

This is based on what both Scott and Tulpa said.

Sorry if I missed something.

Also, a question just for Roger:
What did you use to generate that graphic?
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post #33 of 55
1/20/12 at 9:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

The 1009 will actually process in this manner?

We already established that it won't actually process 11.1, with wide + height enabled at the same time. If it would, just adding another amplifier would be suitable.

I can see the theory behind it. The surround signals coming from the first AVR (the one handling all the front stuff) is in stereo, like it usually is in 5.1. ProLogicII would convert that signal into its own 5.1 signal. You switch off the center for a phantom center setup (and switch off the sub.) You're left with a four channel signal among four surround speakers.

My only question is, what would you hear coming from that setup? If a sound effect panned across all four surrounds, would this seamlessly duplicate it?
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post #34 of 55
1/20/12 at 9:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulpa View Post

I can see the theory behind it. The surround signals coming from the first AVR (the one handling all the front stuff) is in stereo, like it usually is in 5.1. ProLogicII would convert that signal into its own 5.1 signal. You switch off the center for a phantom center setup (and switch off the sub.) You're left with a four channel signal among four surround speakers.

My only question is, what would you hear coming from that setup? If a sound effect panned across all four surrounds, would this seamlessly duplicate it?


On the first page:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...0&postcount=10

So I'm wondering, would Roger/Sanjay's solution work, with that in mind? Basically, will the AVR do 5.1 + height/wide?

And I'm also curious about the "What would you hear" bit as well; I know that Dolby EX/DTS-ES can be simulated with a Pro Logic (or SRS-CS) decoder hooked onto the Rs/Ls outputs, but this is a bit "more" than that. I think because for the most part, in a 7.1 solution, it's similar to Dolby EX/DTS-ES (in that, you're already using a matrix with a 5.1 input), it probably would work fairly well. It would probably fall short of a discrete solution, but I don't know for certain.
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post #35 of 55
1/20/12 at 9:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

On the first page:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...0&postcount=10

So I'm wondering, would Roger/Sanjay's solution work, with that in mind? Basically, will the AVR do 5.1 + height/wide?

I actually think the NeoX ones (x009) can do height and wide, or at least they're advertised with NeoX, which in turn claims the ability. I don't think the older ones did, though.

None of the Onkyos can do height, wide, and rear surrounds simultaneously, though.
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post #36 of 55
1/20/12 at 9:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Could you also get an HDMI splitter, feed both via HDMI, and let receiver B extract/create the additional 2 channels, and run just those channels from receiver B? No law says you have to connect to every amp that has a signal going to it in receiver B . . . Or did I miss something . . .

I could daisy chain them. That's how I was getting 9.1 before I got this new receiver.
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post #37 of 55
1/20/12 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

The 1009 will actually process in this manner?

Yes, according to the instruction manual, the 1009 gives you three options when configuring for 9.1: SB/FH, SB/FW and FH/FW. That last option uses in no SB (surround-back) speakers, which means that 6.1 and 7.1 source material will have their 3 or 4 surround channels downmixed to 2 surround channels.

Keep in mind that of the 9 amp channels built into the 1009 we are only using 7, just to power the front soundstage (Heights, Wides, L/C/R). The 2 surround channels will be sent as a line level stereo signal to the second receiver for upmixing into 4 outputs. The second receiver will then power the surround field using 4 of its built in amps.
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post #38 of 55
1/20/12 at 10:46am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Feed the source signal via HDMI to the Onkyo 1009, which should be configured for 9 channels: 3 Fronts (L/C/R), 2 Heights, 2 Wides, 2 Surrounds (set the Surround-Back channels to None). Use Neo:X to extract Heights and Wides. Use the 1009 to power all 7 speakers in the front soundstage: L/C/R + Wides & Heights.

Since the 2 surround channels weren't separated into Side and Rear signals, send them via RCA line level into the stereo inputs of another receiver that you have configured for 4 channels: Left Front, Right Front, Left Surround, Right Surround (set all the other channels to None). Use the PLII Music mode (Centre Width paramater set to maximum) to convert this stereo signal into 4 outputs. The L/R Surround outputs should be connected to the speakers at your sides and the L/R Front outputs should be connected to the speakers behind you.

You now have separate receivers for the front soundstage and the surround field. You can use the volume knob on the front receiver to set overall level and use the volume knob on the surround receiver to balance the surround field in relation to the front soundstage (like the fader knob on your car stereo does).

Thanks for that! Before I got the TX-NR1009, I was getting 9.1 using the other two 7.1 receivers I have that I mentioned earlier. I had a similar arrangement for 9.1. The only difference was that BOTH receivers were receiving digital signals via HMDI (daisy chained). I used DPLIIZ on the front processing AVR and DPLIIX on the surround processing receiver. I set the level for the surrounds defaulted at -7.5 since most sources do not use it any way. When I turned on a movie, a pre-set would turn up the surround levels to the correct levels correlating with the front levels. It worked flawlessly until I began to realize that my bass management did not include the rear surrounds; it included the surrounds as an unprocessed matrix stack, but I was told from people here that all 10 channels' bass should be managed (which is one of the reasons I decided to get the NR1009).

I've been thinking about the configuration you mentioned. I'm also considering going back to the HDMI daisy chain arrangement (for 11.1), but the same question concerning bass management is now coming up again. Maybe 10 of 12 channels being bass managed will not be as noticeable as 8 of 10 channels?

Also, my original concern when I started this thread still is a concern. Will the surround channels, after being processed by DTS Neo-X, still contain the information DPLII needs to properly extract the surround rear channels?
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post #39 of 55
1/20/12 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Yes, according to the instruction manual, the 1009 gives you three options when configuring for 9.1: SB/FH, SB/FW and FH/FW. That last option uses in no SB (surround-back) speakers, which means that 6.1 and 7.1 source material will have their 3 or 4 surround channels downmixed to 2 surround channels.

Keep in mind that of the 9 amp channels built into the 1009 we are only using 7, just to power the front soundstage (Heights, Wides, L/C/R). The 2 surround channels will be sent as a line level stereo signal to the second receiver for upmixing into 4 outputs. The second receiver will then power the surround field using 4 of its built in amps.

Ah very good then.

Regarding the bass management scenario:

The HDMI chaining is what caused you the trouble; in Sanjay/Roger's solution the "master" receiver is performing all bass management, and the "slave" receiver is getting a managed signal input. I would set the "slave" receiver's speakers to "large" or otherwise bypass it's management (you don't want it setting a higher xover point and filtering the signal is the point). Essentially you're just using the "slave" as additional amplification, and it has to process a bit as well. It can still apply Pro Logic II to a bass managed signal.

In your HDMI chained solution, both receivers are "peers" and processing the same data. In theory you could calibrate them to work together nicely, but it's probably more trouble than it's worth.

Back to your original question: There isn't anything being "extracted" unless you've got a Dolby EX or DTS-ES soundtrack or downmixing happening. With a 5.1 input, Pro Logic IIx is simply simulating 7.1 playback. It's not the same as a 7.1 input (it isn't the same as a 5.1 output either). The Ls/Rs outputs should be untouched going through the decoder - if there's EX/ES matrix data, it can be acted upon, and if there's discrete data (from DTS-ES or from a 7.1 TrueHD/DTS-HD track) it will be downmixed into Ls/Rs - able to be acted upon as well.

I can't imagine what this would sound like with a mono input...
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post #40 of 55
1/20/12 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

The HDMI chaining is what caused you the trouble; in Sanjay/Roger's solution the "master" receiver is performing all bass management, and the "slave" receiver is getting a managed signal input.

Correct, the low frequency content has already been filtered out of the 2 surround channels that are being sent to the second receiver, thereby preserving all their bass content for the subwoofer(s).
Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

I can't imagine what this would sound like with a mono input...

Easy: everything comes out of the centre speaker.
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post #41 of 55
1/20/12 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterAlt View Post

Also, my original concern when I started this thread still is a concern. Will the surround channels, after being processed by DTS Neo-X, still contain the information DPLII needs to properly extract the surround rear channels?

Theoretically, they should. DPLII works with stereo sources, which is what is coming over those two surround channel line level outputs. It really doesn't care where it came from.

It's the same as if you sent it a stereo TV show or DVD, only that the signal will contain surround sound effects instead of dialog and such. But again, the system doesn't care what the content is, just that it's in stereo.

How it will sound is another story.
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post #42 of 55
1/20/12 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterAlt View Post

Also, my original concern when I started this thread still is a concern. Will the surround channels, after being processed by DTS Neo-X, still contain the information DPLII needs to properly extract the surround rear channels?

Yes. And it will sound fine if you can implement as I diagrammed.
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post #43 of 55
1/20/12 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

This question is for both you (Roger), and Sanjay:

The 1009 will actually process in this manner?

Yes.

Quote:


Also, a question just for Roger:
What did you use to generate that graphic?

Powerpoint. Then a screen capture with Corel Capture into Photo-Paint to make it into a JPEG.
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post #44 of 55
1/20/12 at 4:48pm
Still trying to figure out how sending a stereo signal to a PL2 decoder will output that stereo correctly from it's surround output. That stereo signal sent to a PL2 decoder (stereo signal of L&R surrounds) processed will output from the front L/C/R of the PL2 decoder and anything sent to the surrounds will be the out-of-phase/decorrelated info so I can't imagine how that would sound correct. I could see this working but not how you describe it. I see it more like in the old days of external matrix decoding and that the stereo surround info sent to the PL2 decoder would output a three channel output (similar to 6.1 surround) and that the surround output from this PL2 decoder could be used for some faux height surrounds or just ignored.

I must be missing a step.


Suddenly I'm taken back to old discussions like this with sdurani, CAVX ....


Roger, you are THE guy for this and I'm no way a newb to this kind of processing so I would like to hear what you think of what I said here.
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post #45 of 55
1/20/12 at 6:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Still trying to figure out how sending a stereo signal to a PL2 decoder will output that stereo correctly from it's surround output. That stereo signal sent to a PL2 decoder (stereo signal of L&R surrounds) processed will output from the front L/C/R of the PL2 decoder and anything sent to the surrounds will be the out-of-phase/decorrelated info so I can't imagine how that would sound correct. I could see this working but not how you describe it. I see it more like in the old days of external matrix decoding and that the stereo surround info sent to the PL2 decoder would output a three channel output (similar to 6.1 surround) and that the surround output from this PL2 decoder could be used for some faux height surrounds or just ignored.

I must be missing a step.

You've got the concept perfectly. EX takes the 2 surrounds and decodes them into three using the L/C/R outputs of a PL decoder. As the L-->R pairwise pan proceeds, the L/C/R outputs come and go.

Now we want to decode 4 outputs from the same L-->R input. If you look at how a PLII decoder maps to 5 outputs, when the L/R inputs are in phase, the C output joins the party (same as the EX case). If the L/R signals are opposite polarity, the surrounds are involved. So an in-phase L-->R pan goes from L-->C-->R, and an opposite polarity pan goes from L-->Ls-->Rs-->R.





Now we just relabel the native PLII decoder outputs to match up with the 4 surround speakers being driven: Ls-->Lb-->Rb-->Rs.
LL
LL
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post #46 of 55
1/22/12 at 12:42pm
Thread Starter 
First, I want to thank Roger. I'm still absorbing what you said.

Second, I forgot to mention that my Denon AVR has SPDIF outputs (as well as inputs). It is a 7.1 receiver but also has an additional amplified stereo output, allowing it to power 9.1 channels in total. The additional channels could be used for powering an additional zone, bi-amping the front mains, or mirroring the front mains. I mentioned earlier that it has also 7.1 multichannel pre-amp RCA in/out analog connectors.

Just wondering if this additional information could help.
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post #47 of 55
1/22/12 at 1:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post


Ah very good then.

Regarding the bass management scenario:

The HDMI chaining is what caused you the trouble; in Sanjay/Roger's solution the "master" receiver is performing all bass management, and the "slave" receiver is getting a managed signal input. I would set the "slave" receiver's speakers to "large" or otherwise bypass it's management (you don't want it setting a higher xover point and filtering the signal is the point). Essentially you're just using the "slave" as additional amplification, and it has to process a bit as well. It can still apply Pro Logic II to a bass managed signal.

In your HDMI chained solution, both receivers are "peers" and processing the same data. In theory you could calibrate them to work together nicely, but it's probably more trouble than it's worth.

Back to your original question: There isn't anything being "extracted" unless you've got a Dolby EX or DTS-ES soundtrack or downmixing happening. With a 5.1 input, Pro Logic IIx is simply simulating 7.1 playback. It's not the same as a 7.1 input (it isn't the same as a 5.1 output either). The Ls/Rs outputs should be untouched going through the decoder - if there's EX/ES matrix data, it can be acted upon, and if there's discrete data (from DTS-ES or from a 7.1 TrueHD/DTS-HD track) it will be downmixed into Ls/Rs - able to be acted upon as well.

I can't imagine what this would sound like with a mono input...

Thank you. I'm still absorbing all this. Just one question I see off-hand. How would bass management be any different? There's still those extra channels that need managing. How would these get managed? I could use a filtered subwoofer I have to capture 100W of a stereo pair (in this case the rear speaker set) of bass with frequencies of 22-120Hz and set those speakers to large, but the surrounds somehow would need to be sent back to the main amp for proper bass extraction...
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post #48 of 55
1/22/12 at 1:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Correct, the low frequency content has already been filtered out of the 2 surround channels that are being sent to the second receiver, thereby preserving all their bass content for the subwoofer(s). Easy: everything comes out of the centre speaker.

But doesn't the variables change somewhat when that bass is split between four speakers from two speakers? Or is this variable change so small that it's not noticeable?
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post #49 of 55
1/22/12 at 2:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterAlt View Post

But doesn't the variables change somewhat when that bass is split between four speakers from two speakers? Or is this variable change so small that it's not noticeable?

The assumption is that the additional speakers convey increased directional and spatial properties, not "more content." So the total bass needed to represent those 4 speakers is the same as when only 2 speakers were in use.
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post #50 of 55
1/23/12 at 3:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterAlt View Post

Thank you. I'm still absorbing all this. Just one question I see off-hand. How would bass management be any different? There's still those extra channels that need managing. How would these get managed? I could use a filtered subwoofer I have to capture 100W of a stereo pair (in this case the rear speaker set) of bass with frequencies of 22-120Hz and set those speakers to large, but the surrounds somehow would need to be sent back to the main amp for proper bass extraction...

No. Using the layouts proposed by Roger or Sanjay will get around this - the bass management takes place before the channels are "expanded" via the PLII matrix. It's already a filtered signal coming out of the Rs/Ls jacks.
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post #51 of 55
3/27/12 at 6:40pm
So what did you find out Peter?

I just bought a 1009 and am having a lot of difficulty choosing between FH FW and SB. I love the wall of sound the FH FW gives me but I'm really missing the SB's. If I had to choose it would have to be FW with SB, however I want it all!

I have an old 805 I'd like to use to matrix the surrounds but it would be nice to know how it has worked out for you before I go to all that trouble.
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post #52 of 55
3/27/12 at 7:04pm
I haven't even upgraded to 7.1 (from 5.1) and you guys are trying to figure out 11.1? This is truly a sickness. I thought my other hobby was bad enough - cars.
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post #53 of 55
3/27/12 at 9:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by austindub View Post

I haven't even upgraded to 7.1 (from 5.1) and you guys are trying to figure out 11.1?

Consumer 7.1 pre-pros have been on the market since 1986. Over a quarter century later is enough time to move on to more channels.
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post #54 of 55
3/28/12 at 2:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by austindub View Post

I haven't even upgraded to 7.1 (from 5.1) and you guys are trying to figure out 11.1? This is truly a sickness. I thought my other hobby was bad enough - cars.

Then you should be excited to hear this 'prediction|promise|fantasy' about the inclusion of in-car 9.x|10.x|11.x surround sound systems "starting later this year" . . . per this (March 2012) interview at Musikmesse 2012 (relevant dialog starting 7:50)...



And from the Auro-3D site (link)...

Quote:


"We love listening to music in the car. With Auro-3D you will not only be able to listen to amazing 3D-audio tracks but also enjoy your entire music archive [. . .] Auro-3D will soon be available as standard equipment in a select few automobile brands."

_


Edited by SoundChex - 8/10/12 at 7:29am
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post #55 of 55
8/9/12 at 6:57pm
Calling PeterAlt

This thread is a little bit old now but did you try running the two receivers togther and if so, how did it go?
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