Using Oppo BDP-95 as source, is outboard dac going to make a difference? - Page 2

Hi Marty,

There really is no "all digital" system. Eventually, the audio coming out of the speakers is analog. But when playing CDs, the audio starts-out digital. I don't think anyone would challenge those two assertions (although I won't be surprised if someone does).

So you will have a hybrid. The transition from digital to analog has to occur somewhere. Here is where my opinion starts:

[opinion]
1) There should only be one DAC operating at any one time. To have more then one would mean that the analog was turned back to digital, and that second digital steam is likely not as accurate as the original digital stream.

2) Do all of you "processing" in the digital domain. Room equalization, delays and other processes are now available because of DSPs crunching our audio data, and that processing was not affordable in the analog domain.

3) You don't necessarily need any processing. If you are satisfied with only having volume, bass and treble, then having that done in the analog world is fine. Even though I'm a DSP guy, all of my audio equipment is analog except for my media-players (where the DACs are).

4) Having the DAC as late in the signal-chain as possible means that there is less analog sections to pick up noise. Digital sections don't "pick-up" noise, outside of the noise inherent in digitalization (or possibly 'bugs' in the DSP firmware).

5) If you have a system that is going to process your audio through a DSP, use a S/PDIF or HDMI connection from your player. The DSP is better off having the original digital stream then a stream digitized from even the world's greatest DAC. If you are going into an analog stereo system, you can't go wrong with the DAC in the Oppo. No need for an external DAC.
[/opinion]

That definitely sounds "broken"...and the aforementioned $100 @ BestBuy BDP-S480(et al) would seemingly fit the bill. Unless spending that kind of cash doesn't garner you the audiophile "street cred" desired? OMG, you have a "Low/Mid-Fi" optical transfer device, the horror, the horror!

I didn't say that. My position is that I don't see any evidence whatsoever to support the notion that it does. And no, the blathering of ignorant crazy people and fabricated "tests" online isn't evidence to support superior DAC sound. It's evidence to support ignorance, craziness and truly infantile and sad resorts, like fabrications.

My best guess is that it gives them some sort of temporary happiness from the torment of the disorder.

From the digital side yes, analog, I have no idea. Possibly, but that cannot be stated without uncertainty. Analog output stages certainly have the potential to audibly alter the sound, to the point of distinguishing components. Usual caveats with regards to "sound".

I am serious about "better" DAC being something other than audible and don't call me surely.

Nothing at all.
I have stated this innumerable times. If A "sounds" better to you that B, subjectively, for whatever reason(s) you choose....and you can afford it, buy it. Enjoy it.
Just tread carefully if you decide to interject objective reasoning as to why.

cheers,

AJ

I think you're going about this the wrong way. While retaining a digital signal can have its benefits, once you go analog, you don't go back to something that would make it digital again. You ears are analogous by nature so at some point, the data has to be converted at some point so why convert it twice?

It'd be moreso about flexibility to be free from the A/V receiver than anything else. Sooo many possibilities could be opened up if you just think outside the box a little. Picking amplifiers of your choice, setting separate ones up around the house, hooking up wireless receivers, using active speakers for surround sound channels, ect. ect. Not to mention you only have to pay Dolby their royalties once for the life of the player. This is an option for the person who thinks outside the box. Literally.

Granted, several of these applications may lack a master volume control and you might find yourself looking for switchboxes but you could probably pull of a ton of cool stuff like this if you want...

Your CD is digitally encoded. It must be converted to analog at some point for your ears to hear music/analog waveforms, rather than ticks and pops.
Where and how to do that conversion is at your choosing. In the optical disc (CD/DVD/BDP etc) player, or externally (DAC box, AVR DAC, etc.). It really isn't that complicated.
Now that part about which is "better"....

cheers,

AJ

I thought it was something to do with stereophonic soundfields, possibly our perception of them?


You would have spent money, stimulated the economy and depending on your choice of amplifier, done nothing to improve your soundfield. Or, without a DSP style preamp, made it worse.


Fine.


Somewhat correct. The more powerful amp has the potential for audio (audible) gains for sure. But a sparkling new pre/amp could simply make you happier as well, despite the soundfield being unchanged. That fact(or) will always remain.

cheers,

AJ

Not really at the moment. I must admit mostly used those phrases suggesting I might in part because they're somewhat habitual and there might be something more that I couldn't think of at the time of the writing.

Well, except maybe for a few things:

One if you'd like to do video reviews on movies with lossless 7.1 surround sound. You could sink component and 7.1 signals into a distribution amplifier to split the signal into a recording device of some sort, allowing you to better convey the effects of the scenes to your viewers a bit more accurately. H.D.M.I. would probably spit out an H.D.C.P. errors at you and the S/Pdif connectors are limited to lossy 5.1 surround. I'm doubting this would be something with a sense of widespread reviews.

Also since we're on the stereo forum, I might think that 2+5.1=7.1. That wouldn't be all that different from a standard AVR, except that:

1. You could completely power off the other 5.1 channels when not in use. Might save a minimal amount of electricity.

2. When using an AVR, I think you get five of the same amplifier. However, in a surround sound system, not all five speakers are of the same level of importance. Most of the important sounds like talking and singing goes through the front, while the rears are merely used for special effects and only very rarely at that. When you'd rather listen to music than watch a movie, there are only usually two discrete channels: Left and Right. For these reasons, people like to put more money on speakers for the front than the rear when possible.

With a multiple amplifier setup, you could buy a killer 2 (or 3 channel amplifier if they're made, as the center speaker is important for movies) that'll suit your all important fronts and while settling on some so-so amplifiers for your rears. Though I'm not sure how Prologic would work if you like that sorta thing or if it could be any better than your current AVR that you already possess.

3. Run 7.1 channels into 3 9.2 receivers, turn on prologic on all three and make an unholy abomination of faked 33.6 surround sound channels, if that even works, which I doubt. Sounds like one heck of a time though doesn't it? :-)

Running out of ideas otherwise. Convention doesn't become conventional by mere chance.

Hi Marty,

I am not familiar with your receiver, and it is the receiver that will determine the answer to some of these questions. If your receiver has what is often called an "analog-bypass" feature (an analog path around all of the digital paths), then it can act as an analog receiver for sake of your Oppo. But if it doesn't, then all analog inputs will be digitized by the receiver, and the final audio will always be from the DAC in the receiver.


It will depend on the receiver: only if the receiver allows the analog signal to bypass the digital processing sections. I suspect that your receiver's analog inputs go directly to an analog-to-digital converter (ADC), and that all audio is processed digitally. If so, then you can't avoid using the receiver's DAC.


You are correct, using a digital connection will insure that the receiver's DAC is used. But as I mentioned above, the DAC in the receiver will probably be used anyway, if there is no analog-bypass feature in the receiver. The DAC in the Oppo would simply be feeding an ADC in the receiver, trying to re-create the digital signal that could have been fed in directly through S/PDIF or HDMI.


Again, only if the analog inputs are bypassing the digital sections of the receiver. If room correction is available for the analog inputs on your receiver, then that means you are not using an analog-bypass.

A rule of thumb: If you want to use room-correction or any other digital-processing, then you will have to use the receiver's DAC, and you should therefore use digital inputs for all sources in order to avoid a wasteful digital->analog->digital processing step.


Well, if room-correction is something that you can turn on and off, then the receiver probably does not have an analog-bypass. But if it did, it would be something that you could also turn on and off.

If you can turn room-correction on and off, then try that using the digital input from the disc-player. I suspect that the effect of switching DACs would be dwarfed by the effect of room-correction. One step at a time. If you like the room-correction, then go with the digital inputs.

Maybe I should just look up the manual to your receiver . . .

^^^^^
Here is the manual - RX-V663
http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchf.../022RXV663.PDF

Thanks, Jim.

I'll tell you why I did it, if that's of any interest. I am the sort of person who believes in keeping it simple. I watched a car commercial just this evening, and they showed the passenger/prospective buyer getting all excited about the gadgets. She was amazed by the GPS on the dash, she freaked out when the car spoke to her and/or understood her voice commands, the car can parallel park itself, stuff like that. Do you know how much of that appealed to me? Absolutely none of it. I am more concerned with getting from point A to point B as efficiently and as comfortably as possible. I'm 6'2" and built like an NFL offensive tackle, so I want comfort. I want responsive handling, solid gas mileage, a solid history of reliability, and if it looks somewhat stylish then that's a plus.

It's the same with audio gear. I don't want my audio gear to have all sorts of fancy features, buzzers, and gimmicks. I like simplicity. I want a simple and reliable preamp, well-built amps that are able to properly drive my speakers, and as few buttons on the remote as possible. Simplicity works for me...always has. I dont' even use a receiver or processor for surround sound. I use a multichannel analog preamp and I love it. I like the build quality of separates better than receivers and I even prefer the look.

Of course, if you ask me whether I feel separates typically sound better, I'll also say "yes"....and you know what? I don't feel any need whatsoever to have to justify that belief This is a hobby of mine and it will always be a hobby. I want to have fun with it, and I have more fun with separates.

Now see what happens Marty when you ask a few 'simple' questions?

So, in the 'simple' vein, here are your collective options:

1)Your Yammy 663 features a Pure Direct mode. You may want to use it for your 2 channel audio. I say may as it is unclear exactly what the Pure Direct does in the Yammy other than cut off Video circuitry. If it doesn't turn off YPAO processing, if any, then it is not Pure Direct in the true sense.

2) Buy the Oppo 95 - but do this only if running S/PDIF or HDMI for your 2 channel audio and you also want the best video processing from a BR player. Or you wish to run the analog out from either the 7.1 or the dedicated 2 channel and Pure Direct in the Yammy actually does what it says. Goodbye $1K. Hello very nice 2 channel.

3) Buy the Oppo 93 - same deal with the digital connections and the BluRay processing. You are limited to the FL-FR of the 7.1s for analog 2 channel except goodbye half as much $. Hello nice 2 channel ... or still very nice depending on your ears. I'm voting the latter with my money soon.

4) Buy a less costly CD player if Video processing isn't in the equation. Or a cheap player as transport and a nice DAC ... tons of them out there.

5) If you're really interested in pursuing 2 channel, there is so much equipment and so many ways to spend money it isn't even funny. Think deep pockets and subtle improvements on the margins, if any, in SQ for your $.

I can only repeat what was offered earlier. When moving from different HK receivers as pre/pros to the Onkyo processor (on closeout at less than 1/2 price), I was gratified to actually hear an improvement in SQ in certain parameters like noise floor, an absolute requirement IMHO when trying to discern audible changes in SQ related to equipment rotation/change. Subsequently, I will stick with separates from now on. As always, YMMV.

Paul

Paul, those screen shots of the Sammy plasma look really good! I'm a big fan of Samsung...have had my little 32" LCD going on six years and the image still looks as good today as it did back when I bought it.

Looks like a cozy room you have there!

Thanks Summa.

Yes, cozy is the operable word. I like to use it instead of pathetically cramped.

Must be nice having the room for a PJ setup in your apartment with Maggies. Sweet!

LOL, the way you have set up doesn't looked cramped at all, honest A few years ago I moved in with my brother and the idea of having a much smaller room than I was used to for my gear was really bugging me....but sort of like you have accomplished, I was able to set things up in a manner where it just worked. I ended up really enjoying my time there.

As for my apartment currently, thank goodness Maggies are really great for this living environment! lol The units are actually pretty well isolated from each other, but Maggies don't seem to be as audible through walls, ceilings and floors as dynamic speakers are...I was lucky to find an apartment that really worked out well in terms of my home theater addiction!

Yes, of course. "Cheap" receivers can cause psychological drama amongst audiophiles. Same goes for disc players, etc.
Dr. Earl Geddes actually uses both for treatment of audiophile disorder. Some amusing stuff on his site about it. It is a well understood effect.
Last we checked, Marty had no Maggies. And his v663 has pre outs for more powerful amps, should his future speakers require such. Then again, maybe he suffers from the same affliction as you and "cheapness" disorder causes drama?


Excellent. Good luck.

cheers,

AJ

My "cheapness disorder"...You seem to be having a difficult time keeping track of the conversation. My last post was obviously in response to arnyk, not Marty. And if you look closely, you'll see that I put "cheap receiver" in quotes, thus attributing it to the person who said it...that person being arnyk.

I own an Onkyo tx-855 receiver. It's a great product and I've recommended it many times over the last year that I've owned it. If I had speakers that were a proper match for it, and if I wanted a tuner, it would be a great option. For actively bi-amped Magnepan 3.6s, however, it is quite obviously not a match.

Right, something like Marty's Yamaha 663 would have been "a match", as it has outboard amp capability for current hungry speakers. A better match audibly with it's amplitude and temporal adjustment capability to the soundfield than a "bell and whistle" free dinosaur "simple" 2 ch analog pre.
But of course, as you revealed:

Case closed.
Best of luck with the therapy. Sincerely.

-AJ

Listen, I'm really flattered that you are this concerned over my audio choices, but do me a favor...you worry about how you spend your money and leave my system to me. I happen to really enjoy the system I have put together, the more expensive aspects and the less expensive aspects of it, alike. I'm sorry that you and one or two others seemingly can't resist the urge to make assumptions, throw out labels, and condescendingly criticize the basis for some of our decisions...but try a little harder.

That in and of itself is a little odd if for no other reason than on your home page for your speaker business you cite how the "seasoned audiophiles at Capital AudioFest" were so enamored with your product. I bet when you are critical of the amps and preamps and high end CD players that your customers are using in conjunction with your speakers that you're a real hit during those audio shows.

This thread isn't about my system...it's about Marty and his questions. So if you once again just can't help yourself and feel like you need to continue taking issue with me, then how bout you do it in PM so that we can get back to the OPs needs. Same goes for arnyk.

Thanks. I enjoy Red Herrings. With a little tomato sauce?


Well, seeing that my $99 usb pre and $5 cabling were in plain view (I'll admit the $80 amp was hidden due to folks like you), not odd at all. If the speakers can garner raves with such "cheap" junk contaminating the room, imagine how much "better" they would sound with all that not so cheap audiophile electronics gracing your room! Present a worse case scenario that produces good sound and allow the mind to extrapolate the vast "performance" leap of the best case scenario. Got it?



Yep...and you are helping him (and the public viewing) greatly. Even if inadvertently.

cheers,

AJ

Do you think it's possible when you criticized the person in car commercial for their car choice, you opened yourself up to the same? And then compounded the issue with inconsistencies in your decision process?

The person in the car commercial? You mean the ACTOR in the car commercial? Is this a serious question??

And what type of folks would those be exactly?

Folks with these sort of critical thinking and analytical solution skills:

cheers,

AJ

And yeah, I think I'm STARTING to get it...let me see...

You market to "seasoned audiophile" customers that you consider to be "ignorant crazy people" (your term) who suffer from an "affliction" you refer to as simply the "audiophile disorder", and who purchase gear that either "does nothing to improve the sound field or makes it worse". Your theory is that by using inexpensive ancillary gear to demo your speakers, the minds of the aforementioned ignorant crazy people will "extrapolate the vast 'performance' leap of the best case scenario" (your phrase). This results in the ignorant crazy people foolishly assuming that the pairing of their "not so cheap audiophile electronics" with your product will effect an even more enjoyable experience than what was on display at the demo.

I must say, this is truly brilliant. Not only the strategy itself, but to actually take the time to discuss your feelings so openly and honestly on a public forum is very impressive. I have no doubt this will be an effective approach, and I'm confident that it wont' backfire in any way.

You've been pretty diligent in this thread that you started.

Anyway this rough posting happens repeatedly on AVS discussions on many different topics.

The worst of which are cable differences (both speaker and interconnect cables), and DAC differences, to name just two topics.

FWIW I don't own an OPPO BDP-95 player but the large majority of posting about it on AVS has been very positive.

There is a current thread ("Question about DACs ") in the "Audio theory, Setup and Chat" forum that is worth reading at: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1388821

It is quickly another pitched battle, and quickly tiring.

FWIW I personally find the posting by amirm persuasive; both in that thread and in other AVS threads.


My own experience is that there are non-trivial SQ differences with cables and electronics. But SQ differences with cables tends to be especially subtle stuff.

If you want to cut out the nonsense posting, odds are equipment like this merits a post in the AVS $20K forum at: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=86

Meaning pick any high-end pre-amp (or even a high-end AVR) that costs $5K or more, paired with the OPPO BDP-95 player, choose an appropriate title and post it there.

I don't know why, but people like AJinFLA and arnyk almost never post there. Maybe they get chased out? I also suggest that you avoid any cable questions, at least for now.

+1