Recorder Market Is Unsettled Everywhere, Not Just USA/Canada Anymore

Branching off from a couple of threads regarding the imminent discontinuance of the popular Magnavox DVD/HDD recorders:


Some background: the current confusing state of DVD/HDD and BD/HDD partly stems from "global" mfr business strategy contradicted by their local Japan-market decisions. To use your example of Sony: you would think as creator of the BD-R format, Sony would have aggressively marketed BD/HDD recorders in Europe (if not USA) as the natural upgrade path from their wildly successful line of RDR-HX-series DVD/HDD models (the most popular high-end recorders in Europe over the past decade). Against all expectation, Sony chose not to do this at all: they instead quietly agreed with Matsushita to concentrate on the Japanese BD/HDD home market and let Panasonic virtually monopolize whatever global opportunities it could find for BD/HDD.

Soon after, the highly refined Sony Europe DVD/HDD models were suddenly pulled and replaced with unbelievably crude Sony-rebranded DVD/HDD units sourced from Samsung (so basic they make the Magnavox 515 look like a luxurious Toshiba XS-55). For whatever reason, Sony cut itself off at the knees and trashed its entire recorder reputation (outside of Japan). This put a damper on the then-still-strong recorder business in Europe. Without the market-leading Sony RDR-HX series, other DVD/HDD brands faltered (including Philips and Toshiba).

Panasonic filled the void with a plethora of advanced Europe-spec DVD/HDD dual-tuner models thru 2011, while simultaneously trying to woo consumers to much more expensive BluRay versions. This plan apparently didn't gain traction given the listless worldwide economy, and Samsung sensed an opportunity to undercut Panasonic with a cheaper, more-limited configuration resembling a TiVO-HD with built-in BD player (but using the free Euro-standard EPG, with no disc burning or editing ability). This idea seems to have caught on, as several other brands are now fielding BD-player/HDD-recorder combos in Europe while Panasonic soldiers on alone with full-featured BD/HDD recorders (last years nifty DVD/HDD line seems discontinued).

Meanwhile in Japan there were more brands of BD/HDD recorders floating around the Akihabara district than anyone could keep track of. Whether this relatively smaller consumer base is better served because it is profitable or more as a show of corporate pride in the home market is unclear. Japan has always had a bewildering array of electronics products outsiders never even hear of, let alone get an opportunity to buy (anyone remember WVHS analog HDTV recorders?)

So any theory of what may or may not materialize in USA/Canada can only be guesswork. The fact that three dozen BD/HDD models were fighting over the Japanese home market last year while Europe, Australia & NZ were left to Panasonic (or otherwise-abandoned) is very puzzling. USA/Canada was ignored altogether despite the large number of interested off-air consumers here (though stubborn issues remain that make such recorders difficult to use with pervasive American cable TV nonsense). Perhaps demand will inch up now that Canada and more of South America have gone ATSC.

Since Funai sustained Magnavox sales thru WalMart with modest success a full four years after other brands folded, it is not unreasonable to think they might be willing to keep the "halo" going next season with a USA-spec BD/HDD model. While its no trivial matter to retrofit an ATSC tuner into the existing/discontinued Funai BD/HDD chassis, it isn't impossible, and with WalMart's backing Funai might just try it. There's no harm in contacting both WalMart and Funai to express your purchase interest, per wajo's petition: encourage a followup to the soon-lamented 515. Meantime, like many of you who already own an H2160 and MDR513, I'm fighting the urge to grab a 515 to complete the three-piece set.

This is certainly true. But consider, what tantalizes Magnavox fans about the possibility of a BluRay followup machine is the fact that *no one* aside from AVS geeks was clamoring for the original H2160 in the first place. It was totally uncharacteristic of WalMart to essentially re-patriate a product that had completely died of neglect and vanished from other retailers shelves a few months before. Its been quite astonishing to see the H2160 replaced by the H2160A, then the 513, and finally the 515 (despite the complete indifference of WalMarts primary demographic and its relegation to web-only or "ship to store" availability). Given how many times the Maganavox was refreshed (against all odds), its only natural many here assumed it would be replaced with a BD/HDD model once mfrg costs dropped sufficiently. It would not surprise me in the least to discover such a unit was indeed planned, but scuttled at the last minute by the unforeseen flooding disaster in Thailand that has choked off the world supply of cheap hard drives.



Some will migrate to the PC, but many will not. Count me among the "will nots." I do a lot of graphics and video work on both PC and Mac platforms, but haven't the slightest interest in using them as video recorders for TV. The whole idea is unappealing to me: I'm used to dedicated standalone recorders. If my only choice is to use my computers, I'll wean myself from the recorder habit when my last Pioneer or Magnavox bites the dust. Another few years and a new web archive or streaming paradigm will probably emerge to replace what I do with recorders anyway. (Those who do manage to accommodate the HTPC solutions will of course find a wealth of options and swiss-army-knife features unavailable with standalones: I envy their more-adaptable mindsets. )


The TiVO/PC combo is probably the best-of-all-worlds solution that would suit the majority of DVD/HDD recorder fans if/when standalones disappear altogether. I don't think anyone objects to the TiVO itself, because a single TiVO can (and does) offer the functionality of owning three separate DVD/HDD recorders, in less space with more features. The resistance to TiVO is no different from the resistance to cable or satellite subscription PVRs: its based on a passionate hatred of monthly fees. A disproportionate percentage of DVD/HDD recorder fans, at all income ranges, are against monthly PVR fees almost on principle. I've never quite understood this, considering how we get gouged monthly for almost everything else in our lives anyway, but it is a big strike against TiVO for some AVS members. Whether the complete disappearance of alternatives would change the attitudes toward TiVO fees is hard to guess. Some might grudgingly go with TiVo, others will retreat to cable/sat PVRs, the rest just drop out (or migrate to HTPCs).

I didn't necessarily mean I'd stay on the outside looking in: simply that I prefer standalones. I'm not PC-phobic: I've used the HTPC solutions, and just find them annoying- the features and flexibility are great, recording TV (or VHS) to a PC using the various none-too-satisfactory bolt-ons isn't. But thats just personal preference: a lot of people are just fine with it, especially if they need full HD (I don't, particularly). I'd rather stick with my current DVD/HDD units until they eventually fail or the PC solutions evolve into something that suits me better. But if I didn't already own a few Pioneers and Manavoxes, I would probably follow the many recommendations from AVSers like jjeff and yourself to go the TiVo-PC networked route. The TiVo provides the "standalone" feel and functional equivalent of multiple recorders, while offloading to the PC for burning or library storage plays to the PC strengths while avoiding the "100% direct to PC recording" pitfalls.


Kelson, you sometimes take my reporting of other members views as my own personal opinion when such isn't the case: did you not see my remark that "I don't quite understand" some of the passionate resistance to TiVo fees? However misguided, this "fee" resistance is substantial on AVS and the prime motivation any number of members here seek out DVD/HDD (or hope for BD/HDD) recorders. This prevailing "monthly fee" complaint can be a little exasperating to those of us who actually prefer DVD/HDD (or BD/HDD) recorders for other, practical/functional reasons: we all get dumped in the same group, dismissed with the same "look at the wankers who can't abide joining the rest of the world with a monthly tithe" attitude. Its a bit unfair.

I pay a fortune each month in fees to Time Warner Cable. I don't like it, but understand its necessary to get some things that I want like internet access, several tiered cable stations, and multiple service zones in my household. If it ever reaches the stage where its a choice between food and TCM, cable goes, but for now I manage. If I were to add a TiVo, the monthly guide subscription would barely put a dent in my existing bill (and of course nothing at all with the lump-sum option). I'm personally not the least put out by TiVo costs, you get a lot in return if you know how to exploit the box.

So I'm in agreement with you on the TiVo. Others, however, misunderstand the TiVo advantages or stubbornly don't grasp the associated cost options. You could stand with a bullhorn in front of such people shouting about the $600 lump-sum one-time TiVo option, and how that is not much more than a Panasonic or Pioneer DVD/HDD recorder sold for in 2006, and the only response you'll get is "Wh-a-a-t? I can't hear you..." People hear what they want hear, until they change their own minds. Human nature. For some, its truly an economic issue: the Magnavox low price is the draw. For them, $229 is a major outlay and spending $600 lump-sum on a TiVo difficult or impossible. More often than not, they actually would be better off finding some way to finance a TiVo because the functionality they want (integrated EPG) is not available on a Magnavox. But if price is primary and convenience secondary, its nice they at least had the Magnavox option. Until now, anyway.

For the record I'm not especially fond of the Magnavox interface as a complete recorder: I use mine mostly as an external ATSC tuner for my older Pioneer recorders. The pain and disappointment Magnavox fans are going thru now, I already went thru in 2008 when Pioneer tanked (taking my beloved DVR-560 and DVR-550 recorder designs with them). The Magnavox is reliable and works reasonably well, but its a little too basic if you've owned a previous Pioneer, Panasonic , Sony, or Toshiba DVD/HDD. I've grudgingly adapted to mine, but they're better suited to someone who never owned another such recorder and can appreciate the Magnavox in its own right.

I created this separate thread to keep it out of the AVS Magnavox cul-de-sac, and give some background on recent worldwide recorder trends. The Magnavox obsession, while understandable, sometimes distracts us from the larger picture. If the current 515 sold for $499 instead of $229, and the constant flow of even cheaper refurbs hadn't kept going thru J&R for several years, Magnavox discussions here would be rather more varied than they are. Europe, Asia and Australia did not get $229 DVD/HDD recorders or $169 refurbs. The situation here with WalMart, Target and J&R was very unusual.

Yes, I've been aware of those for awhile (and ChurchAVGuy still hasn't forgiven me for mentioning them to him). Really nice feature set, they'll probably go down as the high water mark of the disc/hdd concept. Unfortunately didn't sell all that well compared to the various Sony Europe models they were meant to replace. The DVD versions are slowly fading from availability, the BluRay versions are still being promoted but it seems only a matter of time before they are gone as well.

Those jumping to MPAA conspiracy conclusions as the reason these weren't marketed here need to take a step back and rethink. Nothing has changed since 2005, when mfrs first made the nasty discovery that DVD/HDD recorders were a total non-starter in USA. From 2003-2006, all DVD/HDD recorder lines worldwide matched nearly feature for feature. They sold like wildfire in Europe, Asia, Australia and NZ even at $799 prices inflated by additional VAT taxes. But in America, they stalled at $599, languished at $499 and finally died out at $449, victims of consumer apathy and ridiculously expensive / premature ATSC requirements.

The autopsy results have appeared in countless other threads: DVD/HDD recorders (and by extension, any possibility of BD/HDD) were killed in USA by unrealistic lowball consumer pricing expectations combined with the very sudden introduction, brilliant marketing and mass adoption of subscription Hi-Def cable/satellite PVRs. If it weren't for the fact that TiVo uses a combination of patent lawsuit threats and backroom deals, TiVo would have gone into the grave right along with DVD/HDD recorders. The only reason TiVo manages to hang on is because it can arguably prove it invented the EPG-HDD-PVR concept, giving it enough leverage to force cable companies to play along and integrate TiVo with their systems via CableCard technology.

Integration with cable frequencies and their guide systems is the essential feature missing from USA/Canada-spec DVD/HDD recorders: it sped their North American demise a good five years ahead of the other world markets, which are only just now moving away from disc recorders toward HDD-only TiVo knockoffs as HDTV finally achieves dominance over SDTV there. Europe, Asia, Australia and NZ all standardized early on a DTV broadcast system that was not ATSC, they all share a similar govt-promoted free EPG guide system, and standardized satellite systems allowing independent recorders to include satellite tuners and EPG at somewhat reasonable cost. Cable doesn't even enter their picture, and cable monopoly craziness is the root cause nothing works right in the US/Canada market unless we rent it from the cablecos.

There's also the price issue: Until a few months ago, people abroad willingly paid $900 for DVD/HDD or BD/HDD machines with dual built-in satellite / off-air tuners and reliable EPG with features somewhere between TVGOS and TiVO. Here in America, we didn't want to hear about it: all anyone saw was that the $99 vcr had been replaced by a $499 computerized gizmo, and they weren't having it. Not at that price, no how, and don't bother trying to explain the amazing advantages it has over a VCR. Pay no attention to the fact our monthly AT&T iPhone bill tops $400 and we spend $300 a year upgrading to new versions of Halo: we are a very frugal people.

It pays to remember that the Magnavox was not an instant hit five years ago, despite being the lone surviving DVD/HDD recorder and the only one ever to include ATSC/QAM tuning. Most consumers, especially WalMart/Target consumers, *still* balked at the then-$379 bargain pricetag. It wasn't until the price began dropping like a stone each month and the $169 refurb party started that everyone and his brother flocked to wajo's sticky thread eager for every scrap of info on their new toy. To this day, half the people coming here to ask about the Magnavox had no prior awareness of the DVD/HDD concept, and are only interested because they finally heard about the cheap price. The rest of us still then end up spending 20 posts convincing them they should buy the damn thing instead of a more-limited Toshiba VHS/DVD combo for $100 more.

So there is no conspiracy keeping advanced video recorders from our shores: certain products just do not fly with the American mass-market, even at fire-sale prices. The disc/hdd recorder is one of those products. There might have been a chance for it if we were primarily an off-air broadcast country, but not with our cable-tv addiction. No way.