Recorder Market Is Unsettled Everywhere, Not Just USA/Canada Anymore - Page 8

I have a post earlier in this thread with a handful of devices and their features in grid format, complete with product links. The Hauppauge HD PVR (1212) is one of them.

I read some of the reviews on Amazon ... how reliable is this product? Seems to mess up the recordings, or stop working altogether.

As far as Amazon reviews go, I first look at the overall rating and distribution of the 1-5 star reviews. If there are too many low reviews, I skip it. If it is mixed, I then open the list of reviews and sort by most recent. That'll give you a sense of whether the product is trending up or down.

Most of the more recent 1212 reviews are positive, and most of the 1-star reviews are 2 years or older.

I do not have one so I can't comment. The threads for it are on the HTPC forum, search for "hd pvr 1212". Most people there are happy with its performance. One of the most frequent criticisms is that it is not a digital HD recording but DA-AD conversion so some feel the PQ is a bit "softer" than it would be were it a digital transfer. Those guys over there are not happy if it's not an all-digital pathway. I can understand that. For someone coming from an SD DVD recorder it should not be a problem.

Also, just like with DVD recorders, many people who can't figure out how to work it will often trash it in a review. I generally just use the number of reviews as an indicator to how many people are buying it. If I want to know about real experiences from people I can question, I come here.

I wasn't thinking when I offered to read that channel. My tuner card is on cable right now so TSReader won't show stats for individual channels. It's picking up the two LiveWell channels, WPVI, and WTXF all together at 13.4 Mbps.

I don't have first hand experience with the Hauppauge 1212 but I can tell everyone first hand that a DA/AD conversion with the A being uncompressed- component-analog isn't such a bad hit and most people won't even notice it. It used to be done quite often in broadcast and production. What most people complaining don't realize is that even if we could go from a digital HDMI output to digital HDMI input- it would still take a (digital) conversion hit going from the original compressed of the max 18Mbps stream to uncompressed HDMI to compressed H.264. There really isn't much difference between uncompressed component digital and uncompressed component analog. In fact the uncompressed component digital spec is based on uncompressed component analog.

As for ratings on sites like Amazon, IMO they aren't worth much. Folks would be better served questioning members at AVS, taking in the differing opinions and coming to your own conclusion.

[New, *LAZIER* way of replying to QUOTEs, still formatting but 3 BOLD sentences in 3 different COLORs -> 3, a/b/c, individual replies... ]

1. At the sites listed in my title, IIRC Amazon *ESPECIALLY*, they'll give 1 star if:
   .
   1. They can't figure out how to use it.
   2. It took too long to arrive.
   3. The delivery man left it on the porch without ringing the bell, without having anyone sign for it.
   4. The device *EXPLICITLY* DOES NOT have a certain function (i.e. S-Video IN, Analog Audio OUT), they didn't *READ* the specs, and now they're complaining about it.
   5. Yada, Yada, Yada...
   .
2. The number of reviews isn't always very accurate.
   .
   • Folks who have a POSITIVE experience usually don't bother to write a review.
   • Folks who have a NEGATIVE experience (and it DOES NOT necessarily have to do with the product itself - see above ) will WHINE, offsetting any actual TRUE star rating.
   .
3. Here, Newegg, specific HDTV / TECHNICAL sites are where I look. I check Amazon for:
   .
   • Features
   • Pictures
   • First sold date
   • Ranking in its category
   • etc...
   
   but you HAVE to read the accompanying COMMENTS, if any, to get a more accurate picture of a product via Amazon Reviews.

That being said, then a product on Amazon that has 80+% ratings of 3 stars and above is truly remarkable. Still, even if the reviews are mixed, I would never advocate looking at just the star ratings alone, only to get a general feel. It still behooves one to actually *read* the reviews and weed out the useless ones (which can be sorted by the ones voted "most helpful"). "Most Helpful" is a good gauge of which reviews to take seriously (both good and bad), and I believe Amazon is one of the only sites to offer that valuable resource of the ones you mentioned.

[Continuing with my new 'shortcut' to replying; CitiBear, RED in this instance is just a 'Marker COLOR' - doesn't mean negative. Maybe I should use BROWN - next time. ]

1. I've already said it many times - CitiBear and Kelson have always been my favorite 'Teachers'. I learn so much from reading their posts. Yes, CitiBear, like myself, does tend to compose LONG posts. But, we're sharing OUR (DECADES to amass ) knowledge with STRANGERS and investing HOURS of our PERSONAL TIME typing, seeking no renumeration - just satisfied with the fact that we TRIED to clear up a misunderstanding, or a previous INCORRECT reply to a Newbie.
   .
2. Thanks for sticking (your neck out and sticking) up for me!
   - I had to SEARCH the den, bedroom, basement bookcases to find the title of an appropriate book I read:
   "All I Really Need To Know I Learned In Kindergarten"
   Quote:

   Originally Posted by Back Cover
   
   

   Most of what I really need to know
   about how to live and what to do and how to be I
   learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was
   not at the top of the graduate-school mountain,
   but there in the sandpile at Sunday School.
   These are the things I learned:
   
   Share everything.
   
   Play fair.
   
   Don't hit people.
   
   Put things back where you found them.
   
   Clean up your own mess.
   
   Don't take things that aren't yours.
   
   Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
   
   Wash your hands before you eat.
   
   Flush.
   
   Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
   
   Live a balanced life - learn some and think some
   and draw and paint and sing and dance
   and play and work every day some.
   
   Take a nap every afternoon.
   
   When you go out into the world, watch out for
   traffic, hold hands, and stick together.
   
   Be aware of wonder.
   
   I could go on about 'Please & Thank You' and 'Respect For Other People's Property', etc..., but I trust I've gotten my point across.
   .
3. Nope, never a cop or a security guard - just an 'Old Fart' with an Old-Fashion 'Set of Standards' to Live By...

Yes, I KNOW that I'm *DIFFERENT*! But I'm never intentionally mean...

You forgot one there:

Don't forget to turn out the lights when you leave a room.

I *KNOW* that you're just pokin' fun at me , but I understand where you're coming from.

Some folks just don't understand that:

• QUOTE'ng *ENTIRE* posts eats up the Forum Owner's HDD space *AND* $$$.
  
  - I started with Cassette Tape storage on the Netronics Super Elf II w/RCA COSMAC 1802 and then Atari 400, then 241K SSSD 8½" floppies with CP/M on the Digital Research Big Board and Xerox 820-I and 820-II, and then 88K SSSD 5¼" floppies on the Atari 400/800. I *HAD* to learn how to be frugal.
  
  It's too long ago to remember the *EXACT* details, but, back in the 80s, 'Some Techie Guru' decided that instead of having, IIRC, 26 sectors with PREAMBLEs and POSTAMBLEs on a 241K SSSD 8½" floppy, we could have just TWO sectors with PREAMBLEs and POSTAMBLEs and get, WAG, ~320K. The same 'formula' applied to SSDD, DSSD, DSDD. In fact, I ran a RCP/M (coded in Z-80 ASM that I customized) on *FOUR* 8½" DSDD 'Modified' floppy drives (~980K each?) and a Hayes 2400 baud SmartModem.
  .
• NOT *EVERYONE* has the latest 1600x1200 (another WAG) LCD screen.
  
  - If you limit your photos to 800x600, *EVERYONE*, including us 'Old Farts' running WinXP Home on a 512K 2003 laptop, can easily view the photos and read the accompanying text WITHOUT horizontal scrolling.

I may be BLUNT, but I do have this (possibly 'Old Fashion' / Unique) 'Set of Standards' that I try to live by.

Yes, I could EASILY call certain folks certain derogatory names, but, I choose solely to 'Educate / Guide' without singling anyone in particular out.

The INTELLIGENT Users recognize the INTELLIGENT posters, but...

Maybe someday I'll explain to you my 'modified' "80/20 Rule" - I call my version the "80/10/10 Rule". But, NOT in *VALUABLE* AVS PMs - you'll have to send me your E-Mail address.


P.S. This is a *GREAT* thread! Let's 'try' to get back OT...

Well, I put VRD on the i7 PC and tried your settings for Ad-Detective. The auto-commercial detection and cutting works really, really nice. I tweaked a couple settings. In the "Common Parameters" tab:

Maximum Block Length Seconds: 240
Disable Display Update: checked

Disabling the display update let's it run a lot faster. Watching the display play through the title as the detection process goes along does nothing for you since it's going so fast. I've done about 8 titles and on my PC it goes through a 1hr show in just under 5 min.

The default block length was 180 sec. I found a couple commercial segments where there wasn't a black frame within the 3 min block length so it wouldn't auto-cut the segment. After increasing the minimum block length to 4 min it got everything. I could tweak it back to 210 sec and that would probably do fine also.

The only problems I had were a couple commercial breaks where there was no black frame between the last commercial and the start of the show. That's not the fault of the detection software. That occurrence was rare. Other than those cases, it has nailed every commercial spot on. I'm happy enough with it that I'll be using it regularly going forward instead of doing it manually.

Well now I learned something so I'll have to try the disable display update too as I just go back after and make sure all the breaks are right.
Between us we'll have fast well oiled machines at this rate and I hope everyone else can use the info. I don't have anything to edit till Tuesday when a bunch of my shows are on so I'll have to try it then. They love to try and leave out the black frames so auto skip stuff doesn't work and you get to watch the adds.

One thing I forgot to add. I'm running VRD on Win-7/64bit with 12GB RAM. I suspect that as VRD is scanning the video to mark the commercial cuts it is retaining the whole video file in RAM -- whether or not it actually does, it sure performs like it does. When I'm done proofing the edit points and hit the "Save" button to make the cuts and write the edited file, it does the whole operation in about 60 sec. If you have some decent hardware, the whole editing cycle is pretty darn quick, especially considering you are editing HD/5.1 files that can be 3-4X the size of SD files.

I've edited the whole season of Terra Nova and I'm half way through editing the current seasons worth of Fringe using the Ad-Detect feature of VRD. So, I now have logged quite a bit of use time editing HD/5.1 material and found my "groove" for the workflow. For a 1 hr show, it's taking me an average of 10-15 min to do an Ad-Detect, proof the edits & save the edited file. Unfortunately I'm having some issues getting the batch-builder to function properly. Otherwise I would be able to just queue a group of files to Ad-Detect and come back later to proof and save the edits.

That one must be a nightmare for Ad Detective. I record that show from WTXF and there's barely any black screen at the commercial break transitions.

No, really, not at all. Terra Nova has tons of black frames all through the commercial blocks. You see them during proofing when you display the thumbnail bar as individual frames -- which is how I operate when using Ad-Detective. Using Dartman's settings and my block-length setting Ad-Detective hit the start-end points of 99% of the commercial blocks dead on. It only needs 1 or 2 black frames to trigger a marker. I only ran into two instances where there was no black frame between the end of the final commercial in a block and the start of the show. That was easily picked up during the proofing. There's lots of black frames between many commercials also. A typical commercial block will have a black-frame marker at the start and at the end and about a half dozen more in between. So even on that rare occasion where it will miss a start or end cut, there are enough other markers there to clearly define that a commercial block is there and the missing cuts can easily be included during proofing.

I have tweaked the values for Dartman's settings to experiment and find that his settings are right on the money. In particular the commercial breaks for Fringe are special. The segment ends, you get a slight pause, then they show one of the Fringe icons (the leaf, a frog, etc.) before fading to commercial. I like to keep those segment-ending icons in the final edit. With Dartmans settings, the icons are never cut (well maybe once or twice so far) but as soon as I start tweaking the settings they get cut. So, I'm just sticking with Dartman's settings.

There is one other issue with Ad-Detective that may be annoying to some people -- it makes close cuts. When fading to a commercial block it makes the lead-out cut within a couple frames from the end of the scene. Often when a scene fades to black, they give you a few bars of the dramatic music and fade the echo during a half dozen or so black frames. Ad-Detective often makes it's cuts in the middle of those black frames with the fading echos. That makes the scene transition sound abrupt. I don't mind putting up with it since I know it's just an artifact. For those that are more picky than me (and not editing a backlog of 25 recordings), it's easily corrected during proofing by moving the lead-out marker to a later black frame -- that's too much work for me. It would be nice if there were a feature in Ad-Detective to make lead-out cuts later. You can impact this by tweaking the settings and causing it to make the lead-out cut later. The down side is that it will also make the lead-in cut from the commercial back to the program later -- and often the music starts during the lead-in black frames so you run the danger of making the cuts too close and clipping the lead-in. I guess you just have to pick your poison and fine adjust during proofing. Well the bright side is at least VRD gives you frame-accurate editing that makes these adjustments possible to begin with.

When doing manual cuts or correcting Ad Detective I watch the little blue audio level line. You can see how the sound level fades off in the black frames. I use that line to decide which frames to begin and end the cuts on.

That will certainly work. I never paid much attention to the audio-level line before. When I get caught up with editing all these files I've collected and I'm willing to spend more time in the proofing stage I'll probably adjust the lead-out/lead-in breaks more carefully. Right now it's just so easy letting Ad-Detect make the cuts automatically.

Nice screenshot. You should enlarge the scope to include more of the UI so people can get an idea of the VRD interface. Another feature I really like is the preview mode toggle. It hides the commercials you have set to cut so you can play the cut point and see how the transition looks to you. If you don't like it you toggle back out of preview mode and adjust the edit.

Bottom line, IMHO, VRD is worth the money you pay for it. I used to use TMPGenC when I was editing SD recordings from my DVDR. VRD is a much better editor. I'll be playing with it's disk authoring capabilities soon.

To make the audio level easier to see at commercial breaks I set the db scaling maximum to -48 db (View-> Set Thumbnail Parameters). That setting makes the audio level line top out for most of the sound during shows but it makes it easier to read at scene transition points.
I don't like putting large images in forum posts for the sake of dial-up users. 1600X900 screenshot linked here.

Very handy.

I think it was money very well spent.
The disc authoring is very good. I hate the generic DVDR disc title menus so I really like the menu customization options VRD gives you. I haven't used the VRD DVD Burner yet. I make iso images with VRD and burn to disc with ImgBurn.

I've always used ImgBurn and will continue. I'll have to try that with the -48db level and see how it goes.

Wild Thread!

I have been archiving stuff for 40 years (Audio and video).

My cable box outputs a 1080i, 5.1 stream out of the firewire port.

I have a Happauge unit and a PC setup for recording off the box stream.

Without a doubt, the best HD recording system..STILL is DVHS.

I record EVERY HD channel, lossless recording to SVHS tapes without any problems. No flag stops these things. I have eight units spread out across several different boxes, panels and projectors.

HBOHD...no problem. HISTHD no problem. PC is fine for network stuff but DVHS is the real bad boy for perfect copies of the bit stream.

Star 56;
A few questions for you.

1) I take it that you use the component out from the cable box to the Hauppauge component input? If so, how much generation loss in quality is there from this set-up as opposed to the lossless stream between your cable box and DVHS? I'm interest in this question when viewing with your smallest 42 inch TV

2) What kind of TV is your 42 inch?

3) What kind of cable box do you have ( I have a DCX3400-M with the FireWire active and no CP turned on.

4) Who is your cable co and has the FireWire always been active without CP?

5) Which model DVHS do you own?
I remember when B&H was blowing away the new in box JVC DVHS units with warrantee for $200 and I missed out

6) What type of VTR was your 1st archiver 40 years ago? A ¾ inch Sony, JVC or Panasonic? Or were you only archiving audio at that time. I started archiving audio around 1974 (13 yrs old) using a Sony 2-channel 7 inch Reel to Reel. Started using a ¾ inch Sony VTR in 1980 from my first job but didn't own my own VCR until a few years later.

OK, I don't know what the problem was but I got batch-builder to work. This is slick and makes all the difference when it comes to "volume production". For the folks who don't have/use VRD, batch-builder allows you to easily queue up a group of files for an operation (it doesn't even have to be the same operation) then walk away. For example: you can queue a bunch of recordings to run through Ad-Detective and have it save a small "project file" that contains all the black-frame markers and cuts. It does all the work while you are off doing something else. You then load each project file and proof the edits, which is very quick once you find your groove. After you proof a file, you re-save the "project file" to capture the new edits which is an instantaneous save. You then finish by setting up another batch file to "save" all those files which makes the actual cuts and recodes around the cut-points to produce the edited video file.

I used the batch-builder last night to finish up the last 8 episodes of Fringe. My time at the PC screen to proof the edits was only about 45 min to do all 8, and that was because I took the time to move the lead-out/lead-in edit points to make the transitions smooth.

It looks like the prices of cable card tuners is now very reasonable.

Hauppauge has the Hauppauge WinTV DCR-2650, an external dual-tuner cable card TV tuner that plugs into your USB port for $100.

Ceton has the Ceton InfiniTV 4 USB, an external quad-tuner cable card TV tuner that also plugs into your USB port for only $200.

And we've already mentioned the SiliconDust HDHR3-CC HDHomeRun PRIME, an external 3-tuner cable card TV tuner for $200. The distinction of the HD HomeRun Prime is that it is connected by ethernet to your home network and so accessible by any PC, anywhere on the network -- hence the higher price.

I like external tuners (USB or ethernet) vs. an internal card for portability reasons. Internal tuners are either PCI or PCIe and some computers may not have both kinds of slots so if you upgrade your PC you might not be able to transport the card. An internal tuner dedicates the PC to the task and requires the PC to be resident in proximity to the antenna jack.

With an external tuner the PC doesn't have to be resident or dedicated. You can always have the tuner set up in a convenient location at the antenna jack and just connect a laptop to the USB port whenever you want to record.

Which would be the better choice for a computer-based recorder? A laptop, or a tower?

If a tower, would it be better to have a separate monitor screen, or just run everything thru a TV?

Yep, loving my prime still. Last night it fired up two tuners to record different shows for me, woke up the computer and everything
As far as what computer to use it depends on what tuner or card you want to use and make sure it has enough HP to do everything at once.
I'll eventually get a media extender of some sort so the few copy once things I capture can be played on the main setup out front, other then that they all get shared on my network and edited then played through one of the media players. I run a tower because it's already built and in here, my friend that builds networks and machines for a living uses a tiny HTPC he built just to use with his projection TV he recently got and it can play anything from his network or dish and isn't super powerful. If you don't want to maybe have to mess with a media extender that works with WMC maybe a large dedicated monitor and decent sound setup would be good then you can just watch any protected content right from the box easily but I don't like having to watch stuff on the 23" monitor in here.
Myself I run it all to my TV and just do the editing and moving around in here. If you do a dedicated HTPC of some sort you could just run it directly to your main setup in the same room and be good to go though.

Answer = it depends

We need to know where you are coming from. Go back to this post and start the discussion from there.

Kelson, I forgot to mention I'm using the batch builder now too, works nice. Get a bunch of videos edited down and added to the queue and just start it and walk away.
Even when videoredo locks up or whatever on huge files and I give up and shut it down it keeps a backup of what I was working on and asks me if I want to use it when I restart it so I don't loose all my work

Oh, sweet. This must be a function of Windows Media Center, right? The HD HomeRun doesn't have wakeup on LAN capability. Someday I'm going to give WMC on the i7 box a good workout and see what I'm missing. But right now the old XP box running NextPVR 24x7 as a media-PC is on set-it-and-forget-it auto-pilot so I don't have any energy to poke around WMC compared to all the other cool stuff I can play with. I have NextPVR set up to record 6 shows I'm archiving until the summer -- total auto-pilot like my TiVo. When I get time on the weekends I run a batch job on VideoRedo to clip the commercials.

Unfortunately, the only extender available for WMC is an X-Box 360.

It's not so much the CPU processor in the box but rather the horsepower of the video card. The VC does all the heavy lifting for rendering the image. As long as the CPU is fast enough to feed the decoded stream to the video card you are good. On that score, a low-end i3 processor is good enough. I think just about any VC with an HDMI output will render 1080 -- I prefer a Radeon.