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Recorder Market Is Unsettled Everywhere, Not Just USA/Canada Anymore - Page 3

post #61 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

(...) Also, I’d like to eventually move on to HD archiving but without cablecard support and component outs shut off – this will be impossible for me unless using only OTA.
Kelson, anyone, any ideas?

Maybe the Pixel Magic MTV-7000D could get you some ideas, because without cable cards available that won't be an easy journey (I forgot HTPC...) Of course you still need an external ATSC tunner just for the OTA.

Sorry, but I need to ask, is there no TiVo in Canada yet?
post #62 of 289
I think there is Tivo in Canada but as I said, I'm a cable addict and my cable co refuses to support cable card. But with wajo's PDF link stating that PVR component outputs will be left alone - I will probably get something like a Hauppauge PC add-on and hook up my PVR to offload in HD via component. That is if no one makes a North American HDD/BD/DVD stand alone. This is in the future as for now I will keep using PVR to my SD Sony RDRHX-780 but my deck will die one day and it will be time to go HD-archive route by then, maybe.
post #63 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

...PVR component outputs will be left alone - I will probably get something like a Hauppauge PC add-on and hook up my PVR to offload in HD via component...

Better quality than the 'Component-to-S-Video' adapters in Mag Post #1?

Do you have a Hauppauge Model # (and price) handy?

Thanks!
post #64 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearToLand View Post

Better quality than the 'Component-to-S-Video' adapters in Mag Post #1?

Do you have a Hauppauge Model # (and price) handy?

Thanks!

Absolutely better quality. There's no output conversion involved or further downgrading the signal to SD. You are recording in HD/5.1.

Here's the link to the HD PVR model 1212. It has component, S-Video and composite inputs along with stereo L/R and optical 5.1 audio inputs. It passes everything back out through component and audio out so it goes between your provider box and your TV so you can watch while you record. For unattended recording it comes with an IR blaster for the cable box. It hooks to your PC via USB. Everything is encoded as H.264/AVC so although you can burn to DVD you will need a BluRay player for playback. You can do a lot more depending on what you equip the PC for.

This is a good recording solution for people who don't have cable card support, or don't want cable card support, and who want to capture HD/5.1 (or SD/2.0) output from component-out devices. If you have cable card support there are a number of other options.
post #65 of 289
Yeah, I need to get a HTPC to connect the 1212 to (my current tower desktop won't fit in/next to my entertainment center), and have all the remote and wireless control of the computer so I can sit on my couch and don't have to sit at a keyboard next to my entertainment center.
post #66 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

Yeah, I need to get a HTPC to connect the 1212 to (my current tower desktop won't fit in/next to my entertainment center), and have all the remote and wireless control of the computer so I can sit on my couch and don't have to sit at a keyboard next to my entertainment center.

I was just looking at a nice i5 Dell Inspiron for about $350. You could use WMC with the HD PVR and it's IR blaster to schedule recordings. If you put in a modest AMD graphics board with an HDMI output you can connect it to your TV or AVR and use it as a DVR. There are lots of WMC compatible remotes on the market with USB ir sensors so you can hide the PC out of the way and just use the remote.
post #67 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

I was just looking at a nice i5 Dell Inspiron for about $350. You could use WMC with the HD PVR and it's IR blaster to schedule recordings. If you put in a modest AMD graphics board with an HDMI output you can connect it to your TV or AVR and use it as a DVR. There are lots of WMC compatible remotes on the market with USB ir sensors so you can hide the PC out of the way and just use the remote.

I don't think it would need a discrete graphics card unless you are gaming. My i5-650 works very well for HTPC use with the onboard HDMI output.
post #68 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

I don't think it would need a discreet graphics card unless you are gaming. My i5-650 works very well for HTPC use with the onboard HDMI output.

COOL!!!
I was at work and didn't have a lot of time so I didn't see it had on-board HDMI. My comment for a discreet GB was because of that ignorance.

People like to say they can build these for cheaper -- and you can. But then comes that $100 license for Win-7 Home Premium and you at least break even. If you go linux then yes, building is better.
post #69 of 289
Microsoft always has some kind of deal on the medium versions of 7 floating around so 100 is about right give or take. You could always sign up for their builder thing where your allowed multiple copies of everything they make for about 250 a year if your into building and fixing enough to make it worthwhile. You get legit licenses and everything but that's a bit of money to pay for most hobbyist. If my money situation improves I'll probably buy one of the packages someday then I can use everything they have.
post #70 of 289
Dartman, thanks for the conversations we've had.

I've completed my research and have ordered one of the dual-ATSC tuner HD Homerun boxes for OTA -- $99 is just too hard to pass up. I'll be auditioning the various DVR software packages, running them on my old XP SP-3 box. I did Google that CW-EPG you cited and I'll give that a download also. When the XP box dies I'll just buy a $350 Dell Inspiron as a new media-PC. I don't need to have it plugged into my TV since I'm just gong to use it to record and spool the output to my NAS for media player playback. The XP box has other functions too, it's my TiVo server and a DLNA server. When HDD's go back to their pre-flood prices I've got a MediaSonic external bay in my cart at NewEgg to hang off the box for video storage. People don't realize how little computing power you actually need to record and serve up video.

For those of you not aware of the HD Homerun, it is a dual tuner (ATSC/clear QAM) box that plugs into your network, not a single PC. Any PC on your network can access it and stream live TV. There are a number of DVR packages, including WMC on Win-7, that you can use to schedule recordings TiVo-style with season passes. If the PC is your HTPC plugged into your TV/AVR then you have a live TV DVR as well. Of course you can burn anything you want on the PC burners. You have it all.

And yes, they sell a 3-tuner cable-card model as well -- HD Homerun Prime. That's what Dartman has hooked up.
post #71 of 289
I think they make a even larger version with 6 tuners, or maybe it's Ceton, for those who need a cable card but I figured bang for buck plus it's available now I'd go with the 3 tuner prime.
Ceton is also working on a standalone version that has like 6 tuners and has a media extender option available too but I'd hate to see what the package costs.
And your welcome Kelson it was fun to compare notes and geek out and I think it helped you decide what to get that suits your needs, type of reception used, and budget
post #72 of 289
Yes, they do make a 6 tuner prime. The lowest price I saw was $443 on Amazon ($450 on NewEgg). The 3-tuner Prime goes for ~$200.

I've got a spot ready for the HD Homerun and an open plug reserved on the power strip. It should be here 2/2 - 2/9.
post #73 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

I was just looking at a nice i5 Dell Inspiron for about $350. You could use WMC with the HD PVR and it's IR blaster to schedule recordings. If you put in a modest AMD graphics board with an HDMI output you can connect it to your TV or AVR and use it as a DVR. There are lots of WMC compatible remotes on the market with USB ir sensors so you can hide the PC out of the way and just use the remote.

??? I was just on the Dell website and the only PCs I saw for under $400 were AMD Semprons, and Intel G620s.
post #74 of 289
I thought they made a bigger version but pretty sure at the time I got mine the 3 tuner was available and the 6 tuner wasn't plus the huge difference it cost.
My old 4870x2 card has HDMI so maybe I need to find a cheap extra long cable for it and see how the TV out front does. It would be nice to watch my one premium channel movie capture on something larger then the monitor in here.
post #75 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

??? I was just on the Dell website and the only PCs I saw for under $400 were AMD Semprons, and Intel G620s.

Yeah, I know. They change their prices and specials daily. This was a special and now that I think about it since I was looking at it from work I may have been looking at the employee discount site.
post #76 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartman View Post

And your welcome Kelson it was fun to compare notes and geek out and I think it helped you decide what to get that suits your needs, type of reception used, and budget

To be honest, there was no pressing "need" here -- I have a TiVo. This purchase is just for pure fun. The idea of a networked dual HD tuner for only $99 was too much to pass up. For sure I'll make use of it in several ways. But this was purely a new-toy purchase.
post #77 of 289
well I didn't need this either, I WANTED it. I also didn't need the media players but after I saw a Divco 6500 working at my friends house I realized I could make great use of one. I don't burn disks anymore I just play the stream from the network shares or the hard drives so life is good and the house isn't filling up with DVD's anymore.
The only reason I bought the newer Aios media player is I got 100 bucks from a survey site I deal with and had recently seen the posts here about it but didn't need to spend another 100 on yet another player, once I got the Amazon gift cards from that site I decided I could do free and have yet another possibly much better player
post #78 of 289
I got into my media players as a natural progression of things. It all started with the TiVo. After I got it and tied it into my home network I started to realize that half the feature set was outside the DVR functions. When I realized it would play .VOB files from ripped DVD's I started ripping DVD titles to an external drive and streaming them to the TiVo through my PC. That led to a network adapter for the external drive, then a NAS unit, then I got into BluRay. But instead of getting a BluRay player, I started ripping BluRay to the NAS but I couldn't stream BD to the TiVo so I got into media players. Then another NAS and now a media-PC as a video server with a big external enclosure . . . you know how it goes . . . now a network tuner.

I finally did get a BluRay player for Christmas -- my wife bought it for me.

Thank God for power strips. I have more of them than any other single component.

I don't "need" another media player at the moment, but if I could find one that did everything the WD Live-S does and had a 30sec skip function, I'd buy it pretty quick.
post #79 of 289
Kelson thanks for the Hauppauge HD PVR model 1212 link. Looks very promising, what do you think ClearToLand? Anyone here at the DVD recorder forum have experience with it?
post #80 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

Kelson thanks for the Hauppauge HD PVR model 1212 link. Looks very promising, what do you think ClearToLand? Anyone here at the DVD recorder forum have experience with it?

You may also want to look at the Hauppauge Colossus (an internal PCI Express card), since either one will require a computer. The Colossus has an HDMI input if you need it, and it costs less.
post #81 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

Kelson thanks for the Hauppauge HD PVR model 1212 link. Looks very promising, what do you think ClearToLand? Anyone here at the DVD recorder forum have experience with it?

You might want to look around the HDTV Recorder Forum. That's where you'll find the people who use these things for transferring video from their cable DVR's to their PCs for archiving.
post #82 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

You may also want to look at the Hauppauge Colossus (an internal PCI Express card), since either one will require a computer. The Colossus has an HDMI input if you need it, and it costs less.

The difference between Colossus and HD PVR is how you want to build your configuration. Colossus is a PCIe card for a dedicated HTPC or media-PC. HD PVR can be set up in your equipment rack as a pass-through device and connected to a laptop as needed.

The versatility of PC based solutions is what makes them popular. The functions are modular so you just add the capability you need when you need it. That's why pre-packaged HTPC solutions never caught on. There is no such thing as a one size fits everybody HTPC -- every one is a custom job.
post #83 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

Kelson thanks for the Hauppauge HD PVR model 1212 link. Looks very promising, what do you think ClearToLand?

When I initially researched the Hauppauge 1212, I was never very impressed - especially with what you get for the price.

I have 4 PCI Tuner cards (all ~$50 each IIRC ):
  • 1 ATI All-in-Wonder 128 NTSC-only bought 'On Sale' - works fine.
    .
  • 2 Hauppague WinTV PVR-150 NTSC-only bought 'On Clearance' when the ATSC changeover (2009) either already happened or was happening soon - never used.
    .
  • 1 Hauppague WinTV HVR-1600 ATSC/NTSC bought 'On Sale' (which I could never get to work under Win2K Pro - it needed XP and I don't have it, yet...).
Before my unfortunate health problems, I was truly intending to build a HTPC. I already had a DVArchive Server (aka repository) for my ReplayTV recordings. With its built-in Task Scheduler, I would automatically MOVE shows off my ReplayTVs onto the server after 13 days (had the ReplayTVs set up to record 3 episodes of every Prime Time CBS, NBC, ABC show). You could also watch any show on the DVArchive 600GB Server from any ReplayTV. I have a stockpile of CECBs, so I can still use my FLEET of NTSC-only tuners when a get a 'Round Tuit' and build one of those 'Coat Hanger' 4-Bay UHF antennas. I totally love following Kelson's research! I bought a Seagate FAT+ (for its YouTube capability) and 2 Patriot PBOs (for their 'Third-Party' software and BT capability) @ 'Half Price' from Newegg and, although Kelson has moved on the WDTV, my needs aren't as complex so I'm happy.

Regarding Kelson's research, I *REALLY* like the new SiliconDust 2-Tuner box that he recently purchased. IMO, for less than the price of a 1212, you could get the SiliconDust (to record TWO HDTV shows to your PC) *AND* a Media Streamer (to playback the HDTV shows from your PC). If you remember the old 'Call For Help' shows, Patrick Norton and some of the old crew have weekly YouTube shows and there's a review of the 1212 back in their archives. Since I don't have a PC powerful enough to play YouTube videos, I create Playlists and watch them via the FAT+ on the new Panasonic TC-L32C3 in the living room.

After a quick glance at the specs @ Newegg, the ONE benefit I see for the 1212 is the 'Component Inputs' - thus, you can record HD 'Scrambed QAM' from your Cable / Satellite STBs onto your PC and burn Blu-Rays from there, if that's your goal. If you're just going to feed your Mag HDD DVDRs, the converter that jjeff uses (Monoprice: Component-to-S-Video IIRC) will retain 16x9 Anamorphic through S-Video at a slight reduction in quality, IIRC.

If I were tempted to spend ~$200 on a 1212 (ONE tuner, AFAICT), I rather spend ~$300 (or a little more, IIRC) on a Ceton 4-tuner (or is there a 6-tuner out now?) with a CableCard slot.

On YouTube, SEARCH:
  • Revision 3 - HD Nation
    .
  • Revision 3 - SYSTM
for the 1212 review.

Good Luck!

It will be interesting to see what you decide upon.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I was SHOCKED to see someone here asking for *MY* opinion!

I'm still waiting for Ken.F to reply to my MBs of Usage vs Frame Complexity and Differences... post. I thought that it was a pretty good analogy.
post #84 of 289
With PC based solutions it's not just a question of what you want to do, but also you have choices on how you want to do it. That's the fun of it all and why it's so very useful. I'm getting the HD Homerun for OTA/clear QAM but they also make the HD Homerun Prime -- 3-tuner/cablecard for ~$200.
post #85 of 289
Thread Starter 
I just wanted to say THANKS to everyone who expanded on my initial post to tell us about other TV recording options, increasing the relevance of this thread by a significant margin. I especially appreciate when the diverse opinions and recommendations have been expressed without denigrating each others POV: open discussions are immensely more helpful and invite participation from a wider range of members.

A question to those of you recommending various Hauppage cards and Homerun tuner accessories: have you had any difficulty running them under Windows 7? I gather this was a big problem for awhile. I'm an XP Pro laggard, having only recently gone with 7 Home Premium when it came pre-installed on a new laptop. Seeing as how the new laptop absolutely buries my old XP tower in video processing speed, I'll probably get a new desktop soon that will inevitably come with Win 7. Anything I should look for that indicates an "HTPC-friendly" box? Or to make it simpler, any spec we should note as a red flag to avoid? Not wanting to digress here into a generic PC thread, just looking for any quick tips toward specs that are most compatible with the tuner boxes and AV cards you guys are talking about.
post #86 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

A question to those of you recommending various Hauppage cards and Homerun tuner accessories: have you had any difficulty running them under Windows 7?

The Hauppauge 2250 works great with Windows 7 Media Center. It's a dual tuner ATSC/NTSC/QAM with FM radio internal card. You only get one TV tuner coax connector so you can't mix OTA and QAM. The other coax input on the card is for the FM radio only. The line inputs are SD only. No cable card or HD inputs.

Edit: It will record HD and 5.1 audio from the tuner.
post #87 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear View Post

A question to those of you recommending various Hauppage cards and Homerun tuner accessories: have you had any difficulty running them under Windows 7? I gather this was a big problem for awhile. I'm an XP Pro laggard, having only recently gone with 7 Home Premium when it came pre-installed on a new laptop. Seeing as how the new laptop absolutely buries my old XP tower in video processing speed, I'll probably get a new desktop soon that will inevitably come with Win 7. Anything I should look for that indicates an "HTPC-friendly" box? Or to make it simpler, any spec we should note as a red flag to avoid? Not wanting to digress here into a generic PC thread, just looking for any quick tips toward specs that are most compatible with the tuner boxes and AV cards you guys are talking about.

Bear, Win-7 Home Premium comes with Windows Media Center (WMC) which supposedly does it all -- DVR for TV and media playback. Since WMC comes with Windows it looks to be the software that all the hardware will support at the minimum. I can't give you any details because I haven't touched it yet -- no reason to up to this point. The HD Homerun is listed to be supported by WMC among other DVR apps and the HD HR Prime lists only WMC as the supporting app. When I get the HD HR set up I'll eventually get around to playing with WMC. My priority, however will be to get it up and running on my XP box that is now my media-PC.

As far as desktops go I break them into two classes, HTPC and Media-PC -- these are just my thoughts and arbitrary classification to help me get my head around it. Others have their own thoughts on the matter.

I consider a HTPC to be one that you intend to plug into your TV or AVR, runs 24x7 and is actually used to playback your content -- everything from SD/2.0 to 1080p/5.1 HD-audio. All you need for a base unit is decent but not overwhelming power (an i5 with at least 4GB RAM) and a good graphics board that can render 1080p output through HDMI. Those boards are not very expensive and many motherboards will use the Sandybridge on-chip graphics processor to do the job. With the base unit you can play ripped media or stuff off the Internet. Add a BD burner and you can play commercial BluRays, rip your own content from your DVD's and BluRays. Add a tuner device (there's many choices) and with WMC you have a DVR. Add editing software and you can burn all the disks you want. There are also a bunch of USB ir sensors and remote controls for WMC so you can still be a couch potato.

I consider a Media-PC to be one that may run 24x7, or not, and will not be plugged into a TV or AVR for playback. It can be an old low power base unit that is used to serve Video and manage network storage. It can be the ripper unit for getting your content off disk onto your storage. Add a TV tuner and it can be a remote recorder that collects TV content which it then serves to networked media players for later playback. It can basically be used for anything you would use a HTPC for except direct playback.

For either box, where power comes into play is as soon as you want to start doing heavy editing and transcoding -- especially transcoding. If you have an idea that you want to start encoding content to H.264/AVC for putting your recordings on BluRay, you need respectable power -- as in i7 with lots of RAM and fast HDD's. I have a 3.4 GHz i7 with 12MB RAM for this.
post #88 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be View Post

You may also want to look at the Hauppauge Colossus (an internal PCI Express card), since either one will require a computer. The Colossus has an HDMI input if you need it, and it costs less.

Yes I will look into the internal PCI-E card. I don't know which one I'll end up getting but its nice to have a choice Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

You might want to look around the HDTV Recorder Forum. That's where you'll find the people who use these things for transferring video from their cable DVR's to their PCs for archiving.

Yeah, I know about that forum thanks. Reason I asked here is 1) The crowd seems to be older here, write more my pace and 2) All the folks here are experienced with stand-alone recorders and can point out the differences and gotchas more accurately. I will eventually end up asking stuff over there.
post #89 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Eye View Post

Yeah, I know about that forum thanks. Reason I asked here is 1) The crowd seems to be older here, write more my pace and 2) All the folks here are experienced with stand-alone recorders and can point out the differences and gotchas more accurately. I will eventually end up asking stuff over there.

post #90 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearToLand View Post

When I initially researched the Hauppauge 1212, I was never very impressed - especially with what you get for the price.

I have 4 PCI Tuner cards (all ~$50 each IIRC

In the past I owned a couple of Pinnacle capture cards. The first was bought back in the Windows95 days and I had major A/V sync issues and when it did sync up the quality was awful. I never did archive any keepers with that card. Just prior to purchasing my stand-alone DVD/HDD RDRHX-780 I purchased one of those low end Pinnacle dazzle USB units, although the audio and video synced fine, the quality going from SVHS to the dazzle was bad. Jaggy edges, jumpy frames etc. I took it back within a week.

My other experience with PC capture cards is only with some of the companies I professionally freelance for. We had very good luck with an Australian company called Black Magic Design.
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/
The cards we used were very expensive back then and designed to work with pro video formats and pro video editing software only. I did capture some SVHS stuff and the results were amazing but not worth the expenses involved for hobbyists.

I see the Black Magic Design company makes some reasonably priced products now-a-days but most are still designed to work with either uncompressed or professional codecs.
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/pro...ensity/models/

Recently I started hearing about the consumer Hauppauge units. I am the kind of guy that keeps electronics until I run them to the ground; I keep stuff way after they become obsolete. (I have BETA decks, VHS decks, HDD/DVD recorder) see what I mean? Keep in my mind ClearToLand, I only need a PC solution to off-load from my HD PVR and any VHS/Beta off loading I may need to do after my stand alone dies and I acquire some rare out of print concerts. . NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuning is not important neither is timers or a cable-card slot. Since I don't throw stuff away, I need to future proof myself and HD with component inputs is what I need. The Hauppauge 1212 or the Hauppauge Colossus sounds what I need. In the past before HD I looked into the ATI cards. Do they make capture HD cards with component inputs? Of course I'm asking for your advice - you are a very valuable member around here and I knew from your past posts that you have experience with both stand-alones and video cards - the kind of folks I need advise from.
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