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Bought a new TV, now I'm unhappy with my HTPC - UPDATE, ATI 1, Nvidia 0

post #1 of 51
1/24/12 at 9:02am
Thread Starter 
Did a serious TV upgrade to a Sony 55HX929, which is a night and day difference from my old Samsung B7000. I had previously A/B'd my HTPC with the BD's played on my Oppo 83 and felt they were pretty equivalent after a very minor gamma tweak in MadVR.

Not any more - the PQ of the new TV clearly shows that the BD played on the Oppo is far better than the MKV of the same feature played on my HTPC. I am using feature-only MKV's (made with MakeMKV, no transcoding) played back with JRiver MC17 with Red October HQ (madVR) with a Nvidia GT440 card.

The difference I see is that the Oppo delivers greater apparent resolution and a more dimensional "transparent" picture - the HTPC is softer and does not have the subtlety or dimensional look.

I am not aware of what else I can do PQ-wise on the HTPC at this point (I believe I am at the limit of PC playback). The Oppo is in Source Direct mode with all video adjustments at the default 0 position. Both are playing through my Denon 3311 via HDMI, no video processing enabled in the Denon.

This is a subject that seems to get asked once in a while, but there is never any substantial discussion about it.

I have ordered a Oppo BDP-93 and will turn on DNLA in my NAS and try playing the MKV's with it to see what changes. Just when I was getting the hang of MC17

Any other ideas or thoughts?

Keith
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post #2 of 51
1/24/12 at 9:06am
Get your Sony professionally calibrated before you do anything else!
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post #3 of 51
1/24/12 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuer View Post

Get your Sony professionally calibrated before you do anything else!

calibration deals with colors and brightness, he is talking about resolution and processing....his test is perfectly valid without a professional calibration
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post #4 of 51
1/24/12 at 10:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calcvictim View Post

calibration deals with colors and brightness, he is talking about resolution and processing....his test is perfectly valid without a professional calibration

Exactly - this is not a color balance, gray scale, gamma, contrast issue.
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post #5 of 51
1/24/12 at 12:36pm
Are there any PC specific tweaks for the different inputs on your Sony?
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post #6 of 51
1/24/12 at 1:08pm
Is your HTPC set to the proper resolution with no overscan?
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post #7 of 51
1/24/12 at 1:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spivonious View Post

Is your HTPC set to the proper resolution with no overscan?

it is set to 1920x1080 with no desktop resizing. There is also no overscan adjustment in MC17 since the Sony seems to have exactly 0 overscan on Full Pixel mode.

So I think the answer to your question is "yes"
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post #8 of 51
1/24/12 at 2:00pm
How do BDs look on your HTPC when played directly from disc or ISO using TMT5 or PDVD10/11?

BT
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post #9 of 51
1/24/12 at 2:07pm
Id say the OPPO uses a VRS processor which is far superior to your HTPC. If you bought a stand alone Anchor Bay processor and ran your HTPC thru it probably would solve your problem.
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post #10 of 51
1/24/12 at 2:56pm
what does 'dimensional look' mean? is it the frame interpolation (soap opera effect)?
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post #11 of 51
1/24/12 at 3:16pm
Nivida cards are inferior dot dot dot
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post #12 of 51
1/24/12 at 3:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantu1 View Post

what does 'dimensional look' mean? is it the frame interpolation (soap opera effect)?

No - not talking about motion. I mean even a static image has a "depth" to the image that is almost 3D like. Another way to put it is you can "see into" the image. I'm not sure what the accepted video terminology is - I'm using high end audio terms for lack of anything better.

It is as if there is better delineation between the foreground and background objects.

My guess is that we are talking about luma bandwidth (the resolution/sharpness) and chroma bandwidth (separation of subtle shades of color).
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post #13 of 51
1/24/12 at 3:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj4monie View Post

Nivida cards are inferior dot dot dot

inferior to what - ATI? I have a passive ATI 6xxx (forget the exact model) and at the time I thought the Nvidia looked better. I can dig out the ATI and try again.
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post #14 of 51
1/24/12 at 3:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjterry62 View Post

How do BDs look on your HTPC when played directly from disc or ISO using TMT5 or PDVD10/11?

BT

don't have TMT or PDVD (or a blu-ray drive in the PC for that matter)
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post #15 of 51
1/24/12 at 3:41pm
Find the HQV 2.0 score for your Oppo and compare. The Radeons typically score higher in HQV tests which might explain what you are seeing.

Here's a brief article comparing some of the lower end Nvidia cards to 6000 series Radeon cards

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...s,2925-14.html
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post #16 of 51
1/24/12 at 3:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xfett View Post

Id say the OPPO uses a VRS processor which is far superior to your HTPC. If you bought a stand alone Anchor Bay processor and ran your HTPC thru it probably would solve your problem.

So color me stupid, but wouldn't that only make a difference in scaling SD material? How does that affect HD signals unless I use analog component outputs?

FWIW, I also see a far more subtle difference in the PQ between my Oppo and Panasonic 110 BDP.
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post #17 of 51
1/24/12 at 3:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooler40 View Post

Find the HQV 2.0 score for your Oppo and compare. The Radeons typically score higher in HQV tests which might explain what you are seeing.

Here's a brief article comparing some of the lower end Nvidia cards to 6000 series Radeon cards

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...s,2925-14.html

Found the card - Radeon 6570. So you think this will look better than the GT440 even if I have all of the post processing disabled?
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post #18 of 51
1/24/12 at 4:26pm
I believe all players use some sort of processing on HD and SD material. I have an OPPO BD-93 that uses a Qdeo processor which to my eyes has a softer picture than my Panasonic DMP 85 with a Chroma Processor. I could be wrong
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post #19 of 51
1/24/12 at 4:32pm
Thread Starter 
Installed the 6570 and will try it out after I eat dinner. Still using 11.8 drivers - need to see if 11.12 is broken or not
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post #20 of 51
1/24/12 at 5:08pm
Agree with xfett, most likely the Oppo is doing some post processing. I'm not familiar with Oppo's post processing features and if it can be turned off completely. Here's another guide that might help with settings on the radeon:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ce,2844-2.html
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post #21 of 51
1/24/12 at 6:10pm
Thread Starter 
OK - just tried comparing several scenes from The Bourne Identity with the Oppo and the HTPC with MadVR and the Radeon 6570. I'm using Catalyst 11.8 with all post processing disabled and 0 overscan. Likewise I have turned off all video adjustments in the Oppo.

And the verdict is ...

MUCH better. Still think the Oppo is a little sharper, but we are now within the magnitude of difference I see the Panasonic BDT110 & the Oppo 83, so I am breathing a lot easier.

Bonus is it is a passive card, so no GPU fan noise.

The big mystery is why I thought the ATI looked like crap the first time I tried it last year.

Many thanks to dj4monie for the glib "Nvidia cards are inferior" shot - that started me thinking.
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post #22 of 51
1/24/12 at 8:24pm
ATI/AMD wins again. I still don't know why people say Intel IGP is adequate. I was also underwhelmed with Nvidia for HTPC playback.
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post #23 of 51
1/24/12 at 8:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

ATI/AMD wins again. I still don't know why people say Intel IGP is adequate. I was also underwhelmed with Nvidia for HTPC playback.

ATI 5450 looked washed out on my setup when I used it over a year ago. And the drivers were almost unusable they were so bug ridden and error prone. This is on my particular setup and I fully appreciate that others use them with no driver issues.

Intel IGP is definitely "adequate" for 1080p. Have to really disagree with you there.
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post #24 of 51
1/24/12 at 8:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by khollister View Post

OK - just tried comparing several scenes from The Bourne Identity with the Oppo and the HTPC with MadVR and the Radeon 6570. I'm using Catalyst 11.8 with all post processing disabled and 0 overscan. Likewise I have turned off all video adjustments in the Oppo.

And the verdict is ...

MUCH better. Still think the Oppo is a little sharper, but we are now within the magnitude of difference I see the Panasonic BDT110 & the Oppo 83, so I am breathing a lot easier.

Bonus is it is a passive card, so no GPU fan noise.

The big mystery is why I thought the ATI looked like crap the first time I tried it last year.

Many thanks to dj4monie for the glib "Nvidia cards are inferior" shot - that started me thinking.

Did you try different NVidia drivers? IMO these can sometimes make a dramatic difference.
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post #25 of 51
1/24/12 at 8:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by khollister View Post

don't have TMT or PDVD (or a blu-ray drive in the PC for that matter)

Hmm. I suppose the MKV is a download? If I was comparing a production BD's PQ between two pieces of hardware, I believe I would want both videos coming from the same disc. All discs are not the same. Frinstance, Production Retail BDs can be considerably better than BDs from places like Netflix. That could be the issue with slight PQ discrepancies.

BT
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post #26 of 51
1/24/12 at 9:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjterry62 View Post

Hmm. I suppose the MKV is a download? If I was comparing a production BD's PQ between two pieces of hardware, I believe I would want both videos coming from the same disc. All discs are not the same. Frinstance, Production Retail BDs can be considerably better than BDs from places like Netflix. That could be the issue with slight PQ discrepancies.

BT

It sounds like he used makemkv to rip his own blu-ray (the one playing in the oppo player).
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post #27 of 51
1/24/12 at 10:08pm
This comparison between the HTPC and a fist class CE device is what I have seen over and over again. I have not recently tried AMD but that is because the drivers are so scary. I tried every thing under the sun to get Nivida and Intel to produce the kind of shaprness, clarity, resolution and color accuracy of the CE devices.. and the PC always comes up short.

Maybe I will try AMD again, but I am in no hurry. I am back to all CE devices running in native modes through my DUO. The HP X280N looked very good for live TV but sometimes had horizontal scrolling issues on 720P content.

I am using a 92" screen now and the PC image quality shortcomings are more apparent then ever.
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post #28 of 51
1/24/12 at 10:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

ATI 5450 looked washed out on my setup when I used it over a year ago. And the drivers were almost unusable they were so bug ridden and error prone. This is on my particular setup and I fully appreciate that others use them with no driver issues.

Intel IGP is definitely "adequate" for 1080p. Have to really disagree with you there.

That's a low end card, c'mon man.... My HD4670 whoops its butt in all phases.

It even improves my SD PQ, HD is off the charts the NFL Championship games looked great and with the Super Bowl being on NBC, I get 1080i of goodness.

@kh no problem yeah its glib but so what, gets my point across. Every time I have use an Nvidia card for anything in my PC's I get crappy PQ. Nvidia as always focused on winning the Frame Rate War. AMD cards maybe be a frame or two slower but at least when you pop in a Blu Ray you're rewarded with a quality image.

As always look for the AMD Vision logo
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post #29 of 51
1/24/12 at 11:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

This comparison between the HTPC and a fist class CE device is what I have seen over and over again. I have not recently tried AMD but that is because the drivers are so scary. I tried every thing under the sun to get Nivida and Intel to produce the kind of shaprness, clarity, resolution and color accuracy of the CE devices.. and the PC always comes up short.

Maybe I will try AMD again, but I am in no hurry. I am back to all CE devices running in native modes through my DUO. The HP X280N looked very good for live TV but sometimes had horizontal scrolling issues on 720P content.

I am using a 92" screen now and the PC image quality shortcomings are more apparent then ever.

Basically you only upgrade ATI drivers if -

1) You're experiencing a problem

2) You're looking for the latest game support

Otherwise, if its not broke don't fix it and resist the temptation to update.

If Windows Update decides to update my drivers it does.

No driver problems since the broken HWA bug in the firmware of the HD2400 cards....
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post #30 of 51
1/25/12 at 3:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Did you try different NVidia drivers? IMO these can sometimes make a dramatic difference.

I used the latest ones - at this point I'm not inclined to go dumpster diving for drivers.
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