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Indiana Jones Trilogy - Page 36

post #1051 of 1202
It's green Vs brown and orange vs red. Simple
post #1052 of 1202
disappointed that the Blu-ray doesn't have a Behind the Scenes look at the restoration process like the Jaws Blu-ray had
post #1053 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

disappointed that the Blu-ray doesn't have a Behind the Scenes look at the restoration process like the Jaws Blu-ray had

What restoration process?
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Just kidding tongue.gif
post #1054 of 1202
The spider scene, yes, has always looked off in every home video product.

My opinion is that it's an artistic choice to create a surreal atmosphere of fear. The spiders look off putting to the audience with their motion. This feeling is then used by the John Williams score to make your skin crawl.

It created such an unsettling feeling as a kid, I distinctly recall.

It was like they were in faux 3D maybe. Hard to describe. Something to do with the frame-rate and focus depth. A heightened sense of realism. I'd like to know if anyone else has that point of view?
post #1055 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

So let me get this straight, people love a 5.1 remix with no original track as long as its done well?
Works for me.
post #1056 of 1202
As long as it sounds mostly faithful (effects/music/dialog aren't replaced with stuff that sounds nothing like the originals, no overdoing surround effects, no echoing, etc.), I have no major problem with it. But the original audio format should always be preserved in lossless or LPCM. Seems only Criterion and niche labels do this on a regular basis.
post #1057 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd213 View Post

As long as it sounds mostly faithful (effects/music/dialog aren't replaced with stuff that sounds nothing like the originals, no overdoing surround effects, no echoing, etc.), I have no major problem with it. But the original audio format should always be preserved in lossless or LPCM. Seems only Criterion and niche labels do this on a regular basis.
+1
post #1058 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Well that's the trouble isn't it, any evidence of what's closer to the "original colors" put forth so far has been anecdotal at best, if not completely ill-reasoned.
Sorry, I don't believe you remember what RGB value on your monitor the white point at the theater you saw it would correspond to....

Actually I haven't seen it in a theater. (I was born in 81 and in a part of world where american movies were mostly forbidden back then.) But there are people who did, some of them not that long ago, and they don't claim to remember the exact white point, but if they say it always looked "normal" and nothing bothered them but suddenly on the Blu-ray there are things that do like the orange flags I tend to believe them.

But what evidence do we really have about the original colors? Nothing absolutely conclusive, sure. But we have reports by people, VHS, laserdisc, DVD, HDTV versions, the sequels, trailers or things like the nutella add. All of that evidence towards the natural, realistic look. Considering that it is safe to assume that the colors have indeed been changed on the Blu-ray.

On the other hand what evidence is there that would suggest that the Blu-ray has original colors? None. There is only the claim by the studio. (And they also said that Temple of Doom and The Last Crusade will be remastered...)
post #1059 of 1202
There are movies that have never looked correct on home video in any iteration. I'm guessing this is because they were mastered for a TV paradigm, so to speak, where capturing the look of the prints just wasn't the goal. That's not even considering that transfers aren't made from projection prints, though the print film imparts its own visual character. Transfers made in the digital cinema era often hew much closer to the prints. Which is not to say the new transfer of Raiders does, but I'm not taking any old video transfers as compelling evidence for how it should look, and I don't feel most of the movie is very far from what is achievable through analog color timing.

I've seen some people say the new transfer looks more like whatever print they saw a few years back. I've seen other people say otherwise. Like I said, it's all anecdotal.
Edited by 42041 - 9/25/12 at 1:50pm
post #1060 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Light View Post

There is only the claim by the studio.

...and even the studio admits they intentionally altered things a bit on the opening. I can't think of why the studio would work so hard to maintain theatrical colors when this isn't even the theatrical cut. Even if we can't agree on colors (and manage to refrain from exaggerating the claims the other side...remembering RGB values? really?), can we at least agree that this was never even intended to match the theatrical version from the get-go? The question of whether it's correct or not is a settled fact (snake reflection says "no!"), the question of how wrong it is, or the ways in which it is wrong, or if it's close enough and good enough to buy, or whatever, will continue...
post #1061 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatBus View Post

(and manage to refrain from exaggerating the claims the other side...remembering RGB values? really?
What's the exaggeration? If you're going to say that this transfer or that transfer is wrong because a scene isn't as bright as it is on another transfer or it's "dulled", you're implying you remember exactly how bright the image is supposed to be, or exactly how much contrast there was in the clouds in the scene on the ship.
My point is that these screencap color comparisons are ridiculous because it has nothing to do with how anyone ever watches movies.
post #1062 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

What's the exaggeration? If you're going to say that this transfer or that transfer is wrong because a scene isn't as bright as it is on another transfer or it's "dulled", you're implying you remember exactly how bright the image is supposed to be.
My point is that these screencap color comparisons are ridiculous because it has nothing to do with how anyone ever watches movies.

I took "remembering RGB values" to mean remembering the 8-bit value for each color, to the digit. But using the broader definition you've provided, I suppose claiming "Marion was not blonde in the theatrical version" is claiming to remember RGB values, and I plead guilty to that. I know Marion is not blonde, and that this Blu-ray got that right. It's all just anecdotal, though, I guess I could be wrong...

Note that I don't really think that--I was writing that to illustrate that color memory can in fact be accurate within a range. The disagreement is only over how narrow that range can get.
post #1063 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatBus View Post

I took "remembering RGB values" to mean remembering the 8-bit value for each color, to the digit.
That is what I meant. My point is that it's impossible to know something like that, and yet you have some people critiquing screencaps like they remember how the film looks with that degree of absolute precision.
Take this rather controversial comparison, for instance, people were complaining about how dull it looked:
http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/comparison.php?cap1=14347&cap2=14331&art=full&image=6&cID=1273&action=1&lossless=
If you prefer the old transfer, great... but when someone tells me about the ways the new one is "wrong", then they're implying photographic recollection of the exact brightness on the screen, exactly what its color temperature was, uncolored by your brain's white-balancing circuits, the print's highlight/shadow latitude, and where all that falls in the RGB range of your display for how it should appear. I don't buy it. At best, you remember it relative to the characteristics of the projector/print in a dark room, though chances are you barely remember it at all unless you saw it in the last few years.

I don't dispute you can remember many things about how a film looked, but it will be in a much more broad, mnemonic sense, especially after any amount of time.
Edited by 42041 - 9/25/12 at 2:41pm
post #1064 of 1202
Anyone care to take a guess why there is some weird cropping effect just a few seconds before the closing credits roll on the Blu-ray of 'Temple of Doom.' Is it an error or intentional? Not really sure, but definitely odd since it's not present on the previous DVD. Here are some pics to show this, where black bars on the left and right of the screen suddenly appear while the camera zooms back.

Thank you to our friends at ecranlarge.com for bringing this to my attention.

Here is the DVD:

temple_dvd_1.pngtemple_dvd_2.pngtemple_dvd_3.png

temple_dvd_4.pngtemple_dvd_5.pngtemple_dvd_6.png

And here is the Blu-ray:

temple_blu_ray_1.pngtemple_blu_ray_2.pngtemple_blu_ray_3.png

temple_blu_ray_4.pngtemple_blu_ray_5.pngtemple_blu_ray_6.png
post #1065 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by eNoize View Post

Anyone care to take a guess why there is some weird cropping effect just a few seconds before the closing credits roll on the Blu-ray of 'Temple of Doom.' Is it an error or intentional?

It's similar to what MGM/FOX does with some of the Bond movies during the main title sequences. Because the new transfers are more cropped than the old masters, they feel they have to windowbox the image during the credits to prevent any cropping of titles on displays that have excessive overscan.

The cropping is actually completely unnecessary. Each of the Indy films were scanned at 4K (either 3612 x 3060 or 4096 x 3472) so they were hugely oversampled compared to the active image area of a scope film on Blu-ray. They could have downscaled it directly to 1920 X 817 without any cropping at all (beyond what would be necessary to avoid the rounded corners of the anamorphic camera aperture)... and this whole windowboxing nonsense wouldn't be needed in the first place.
post #1066 of 1202
Just saw Raiders at the BFI IMAX. Digital projection, dunno what resolution. The golden, burnished look of the new transfer is in full effect, but there was not so much as a hint of teal. I loved it, quite honestly. I'll give the Blu-ray a spin in a day or two and see how it stacks up.
post #1067 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

There are movies that have never looked correct on home video in any iteration. I'm guessing this is because they were mastered for a TV paradigm, so to speak, where capturing the look of the prints just wasn't the goal. That's not even considering that transfers aren't made from projection prints, though the print film imparts its own visual character. Transfers made in the digital cinema era often hew much closer to the prints. Which is not to say the new transfer of Raiders does, but I'm not taking any old video transfers as compelling evidence for how it should look, and I don't feel most of the movie is very far from what is achievable through analog color timing.
I've seen some people say the new transfer looks more like whatever print they saw a few years back. I've seen other people say otherwise. Like I said, it's all anecdotal.

I think it's still plenty of circumstantial evidence versus none.

As far as peoples memory about it I think it is not impossible. As I wrote before if it always seemed "normal" and now it feels "wrong" than that means something. And I have not seen anyone claiming that the flags were always orange... (just to point out the most obvious).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatBus View Post

...and even the studio admits they intentionally altered things a bit on the opening. I can't think of why the studio would work so hard to maintain theatrical colors when this isn't even the theatrical cut. Even if we can't agree on colors (and manage to refrain from exaggerating the claims the other side...remembering RGB values? really?), can we at least agree that this was never even intended to match the theatrical version from the get-go? The question of whether it's correct or not is a settled fact (snake reflection says "no!"), the question of how wrong it is, or the ways in which it is wrong, or if it's close enough and good enough to buy, or whatever, will continue...

Exactly! It has been already admitted that the brightness of the opening scene was changed. Clearly it was not even the goal to be perfectly faithful to the original. And who knows how many more deliberate changes there were made that were not admitted? And perhaps even some mistakes? Possibly adding some yellow? wink.gif


Also, regarding the snake reflection, today I read this:
Quote:
Spielberg also made it clear that he would not be making any digital tweaks to "Raiders" to fix any problems or mistakes in the original movie. And he's well aware that expanding the image on the big IMAX screen will only make those goofs — like when Jones is facing down a cobra and you can see the snake's reflection in the safety glass that separates them — all the more apparent. But, he said, "I think that the fans are going to love that even more, because they're the ones that picked them out in the first place."
from http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie-talk/steven-spielberg-says-raiders-lost-ark-looks-better-163808385.html

???

So either he approved it although it is not what he wanted or what we have on the Blu-ray is not an approved version. Or I don't know what.
post #1068 of 1202
Are there HD trailers on the set? Or is that too easy?
post #1069 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

Are there HD trailers on the set? Or is that too easy?

According to the review I read on another major site, all the trailers are 1080p.

Of course, who knows the provenance of those trailers. Without documentary sources, how could anyone know for certain if the trailers were created with the same color-grading as the original theatrical release?
post #1070 of 1202
Does anyone know where I can find a proper screenshot from the Temple of Doom titles? Preferably Key Huy Kwan's?
post #1071 of 1202
I take it that they colour-timed the deleted footage on the bonus disc, as well?

It has the same golden hue, as Raiders,(with brightness levels slightly higher).

Or did I just open a can of worms?

Incidentally, I've no issue with the colour palette.
Edited by raoul_duke - 9/27/12 at 4:57pm
post #1072 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by raoul_duke View Post

I take it that they colour-timed the deleted footage on the bonus disc, as well?
It has the same golden hue, as Raiders,(with brightness levels slightly higher).
Or did I just open a can of worms?

post #1073 of 1202
Found the Indy BD set in like-new condition (minus shrinkwrap) for $35 at a used book and record store. I guess if I'm not impressed I can always give it as a Christmas present. smile.gif

Also the Tim Burton 7-movie BD set likewise for $20. My lucky day, I guess.
Edited by eweiss - 9/28/12 at 10:50am
post #1074 of 1202
Was that the Indy BD set or the can of worms.? Just had to yank your chain.smile.gif
post #1075 of 1202
"Worms...why does it always have to be worms...I hate worms, especially when they come in cans!"
post #1076 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasst View Post

Was that the Indy BD set or the can of worms.? Just had to yank your chain.smile.gif

I edited my post to clarify. smile.gif
post #1077 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by eweiss View Post

Found the Indy BD set in like-new condition (minus shrinkwrap) for $35 at a used book and record store.

Sounds like the previous owner didn't like it if they sold it that soon after release.
post #1078 of 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC0TLANDF0REVER View Post

Sounds like the previous owner didn't like it if they sold it that soon after release.
Or, they duped it and sold it off - though they could probaby have done better through E-bay.
post #1079 of 1202
Watched Raiders Friday night and thought it looked solid. Yes, there were a few issues but nothing major and the color timing did not bother me. So far, so good.
post #1080 of 1202
I also watched RAIDERS over the weekend, and am extremely pleased. Yes, I noticed the colors were warmer -- but nothing that "took me out" of the movie. Didn't see any "orange Nazi flags" as has been reported by others, all of the flags in my viewing were red. The new doc "On the Set with Raiders" was really nice, some eye opening moments for certain!
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