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Sim2 Worlds first Active 3D LED projector. - Page 3

post #61 of 237
I ran across this info from Sim2 that I hadn't seen before:

M.150 on the Sim2 site

"M.150 website"

post #62 of 237
Thanks for the replies.
post #63 of 237
Odd that they went from curvaceous Italian styling to a sharp-edged box; I wonder if they started with an OEM design
post #64 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Odd that they went from curvaceous Italian styling to a sharp-edged box; I wonder if they started with an OEM design

I think it's a new design direction for them. It's similar to their Crystal line.
post #65 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMike View Post

I think it's a new design direction for them. It's similar to their Crystal line.

That is true. For both technical and aesthetic reason they are going in this direction for new projectors.
post #66 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigsMovies View Post

I ran across this info from Sim2 that I hadn't seen before:

M.150 on the Sim2 site

"M.150 website"

Thanks for posting those! Very interesting stuff. Further convinces me that I really want to see one in action.
post #67 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Odd that they went from curvaceous Italian styling to a sharp-edged box; I wonder if they started with an OEM design

The LED light engine does not lend itself to a Lumis/NERO cabinet design. There's much more "stuff" to accommodate...bigger power supplies, radiator and liquid cooling, more lens (not folded as in 'Alpha' designs), more lens shift (motorized vertical AND horizontal). Considering they crammed everything into a cabinet that's only 16.5"x8"x21" this is quite a feat. All this, however, won't be insubstantial. With the glass veneer, I'm expecting it to weigh in at about 60lbs...a thing of substance, like a high-end amplifier.
post #68 of 237
I don't think it's quite 60, but a Sim2 representative suggested a dual-pole mount since I live in earthquake country.
post #69 of 237
How much substance is there to the "add 25% to the lumen output when comparing to bulb projectors" statement that sim2 and others state about led projectors? If that is true then the real world output of the m150 is closer to thesony then i first thought......

So any truth to that statement? I have never been able to view a led pj.
post #70 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

How much substance is there to the "add 25% to the lumen output when comparing to bulb projectors" statement that sim2 and others state about led projectors? If that is true then the real world output of the m150 is closer to thesony then i first thought......

So any truth to that statement? I have never been able to view a led pj.

I'm pretty sure I don't buy it. The effect they're talking about relates to the perception of brightness with highly saturated colors. If you calibrate the projector to Rec.709, then your colors should be the same saturation as a normal lamp, and you wouldn't see a benefit.

I think a CMS like the latest JVC, which allows over saturated colors while preserving correct skin tone, would be a great fit with an LED machine, and then you might see a benefit. I don't know if the M.150 supports this or if any external scalers like the Lumagen do.

With all that said, I was really really impressed with the Digital Projection Kroma, even on a large screen. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix never looked so good, from the saturated colors on the playground in the opening scene to the dark tunnel of the Dementor attack, to the final confrontation between Dumbledore and Voldemort in the Ministry of Magic. I believe the projector was quite well calibrated. I really want to see these clips on the M.150!
post #71 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

How much substance is there to the "add 25% to the lumen output when comparing to bulb projectors" statement that sim2 and others state about led projectors? If that is true then the real world output of the m150 is closer to thesony then i first thought......

So any truth to that statement? I have never been able to view a led pj.

I had a calibrator friend surprised at his perceprion of the brightness of one of the earlier Runco LED units. So his feeling was that was the case. I've only seen them at shows and on a HP screen, so it's hard for me to say objectively. The fact that they don't have bulb aging is one of the most attractive things about them. I'd want one if it would light up my screen bright enough for my tastes, but I still need a little more.
post #72 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

I had a calibrator friend surprised at his perceprion of the brightness of one of the earlier Runco LED units. So his feeling was that was the case. I've only seen them at shows and on a HP screen, so it's hard for me to say objectively. The fact that they don't have bulb aging is one of the most attractive things about them. I'd want one if it would light up my screen bright enough for my tastes, but I still need a little more.

Just thought I'd add my personal viewing experiences of the 1st wave of LED DLP Pj's
I demo'd the 1 wave of LED DLP PJ's 2+ years ago and found them to be quite bright versus their specs. I liked all 3
Note: I'm not very technically adept and this was from viewing experiences only
E.g. I had no equipment to extract factual evidence or actual ftL measurements

I saw the MICO 50 at Bristol show in UK produce a punchy image on a 130" SMX curved screen Think the SMX was 1.2gain max, I don't think they do high gain screens

I viewed the Runco 750i in private home cinema on a 118" Screen Research cleapix 2 screen 1.0 screen and again I saw/thought it produced a very nice punchy image.

I finally viewed a demo of the Projection Design/Avielo Korma model at Munich high end in a light controlled room and it was nice and bright.
That was again on a Screen research 1.0 white screen, think it was 110" diagonal 2.35:1 screen.
Interesting thing during that demo was:
- First they demo'd the 3 chip Helios on a 130 "/ 140" diagonal screen (Screen research 1.0 white screen again)
-They they switched to an electric drop down screen research screen, same 1.0 gain/white and switched on the Korma
- The Projection Design rep then made a point of asking people's opinions on the screen brightness, I think he said it was producing 8 - 10ftL or something in that ball park but said everyone they perceived it to be brighter. I can't recall if he gave any explanation a to why most people perceive the LED DLP to be brighter.

I'm off to Bristol show sat 25/Feb to see the Mico & Sony VPL-VW1000 and will report back.
They'll be in difference rooms and screens so it obviously is not a direct comparison.
I love the DLP image but can see rainbows, so these 1 chip Led units interest me a lot.
Just a shame I can't afford them new
post #73 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigsMovies View Post

I ran across this info from Sim2 that I hadn't seen before:

M.150 on the Sim2 site

"M.150 website"


Interesting explaination by SIM2 http://m150.sim2.com/content/led-brightness

Quote form that URL link:
"New brightness measurement concept
With the introduction of LED light source it becomes necessary to introduce a new concept of brightness that differs from the ANSI one normally used for UHP lamp projectors.
Some consideration on ANSI brightness measurement are needed:
ANSI Lumens is an engineering measurement of white light. It is a convenient relative measurement to compare lamp-based projectors with other lamp based projectors.
ANSI lumens do not accurately represent color brightness and cannot represent exactly the human eye perception of saturated colors.
It is very important to understand the concept of COLOR BRIGHTNESS.
The word “brightness” is being wrongly used in the Audio/Video market to describe how much bright a projector or a display is. In Physics, instead, another term is the correct one to evaluate it: the “luminance” (expressed in cd/m2 or Lumens)…and this is the measurable characteristic.
The brightness has actually an empirical meaning based on the human eye perception and it lacks a proper measurement unit.
It is exactly this that differs LED-based projectors form lamp-based ones.
Going into details.
Like previously said, the LED source produces richer and more saturated colors than the lamp source. Based on a particular effect called Helmholtz-Kohlrausch effect, brightness (or human perception) rises with the increasing of the color saturation.
So, comparing a LED projector with a lamp-based projector with the same “luminance” , the LED one results to be brighter to the human eyes! Based on empirical tests, brightness perception of LED-powered projectors is 25% more in respect to lamp-based ones.
In summary, to define LED projectors luminance with the same “catalog ANSI lm” as lamp projectors is a mistake because:
− the actual brightness delivered is higher, also in terms of stability over time
− the end user experience and perception of brightness is superior"
unquote
.
So "Helmholtz-Kohlrausch effect " is the explaination, I'll have to save that for reference!
post #74 of 237
Having owned a MICO 50, I'm convinced that LED brightness is perceived to be brighter than the ANSI number would suggest. I can't wait to see how much brighter the M150 appears to be over the MICO 50. The fact that SIM2 saw fit to incorporate 3D suggests that it is significantly brighter. I should know tonight...assuming my projector arrives as promised and I can get home from dinner out with the wife with my faculties intact.
post #75 of 237
Looking forward to it Pete. What is your screen size and gain?
post #76 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Looking forward to it Pete. What is your screen size and gain?

100" @ 1.3...but I will overscan until I run out of adjacent wall and see how watchable the screen portion of the image is in both 2D and 3D.
post #77 of 237
The user guide for this projector has been released:

M.150 User Guide

Now found on the Sim2 M.150 product page:

M.150

BTW....... The Weight! approx. 61.7 lbs. OMG

You called this one Pete!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

I'm expecting it to weigh in at about 60lbs...a thing of substance, like a high-end amplifier.
post #78 of 237
What does their new marketing angle for this mean? I dont get it...

The concept is simple: inspire creativity and add vitality to the home by painting with light and images. Whether it’s personal photographs, art, mood lighting, or movies, this system delivers stunning visual pleasure, and ignites the senses. As the world’s first 3D active LED video interior design system, this is a one-of-kind solution for discerning customers who desire a unique way to enhance the beauty of their home: a window of light created with cutting-edge projection technology.
post #79 of 237
Hmm, apparaently we could have compared it to the TrueVango at ISE, if the marketing from the US had been better, never knew they were around, no announcement, no info, nothing to draw people:

Best Home Theater Demo: Unlike at CEDIA EXPO, home theater demos were few and far between at ISE. Fortunately a partnership of nine familiar brands combined resources again this year to showcase what each of them does best in an integrated entertainment space. Under the “Home Cinema Europe” banner, D-Tools provided project design assistance, Audio Design Associates (ADA) contributed the AV processing and amplification that fed through Tributaries Cable to RBH Sounds speakers as well as a D-BOX Motion Code system. D-BOX enabled luxurious Fortress home theater seats to rumble, shift, and lift in response to what was projected by an Entertainment Experience (EE Color) projector through a Schneider Kreuznach anamorphic lens onto a 120-inch Screen Innovations screen.
http://residentialsystems.com/blog/70458.aspx
post #80 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigsMovies View Post

The user guide for this projector has been released:

M.150 User Guide

Now found on the Sim2 M.150 product page:

M.150

BTW....... The Weight! approx. 61.7 lbs. OMG

You called this one Pete!

Wow! I must have remembered wrong. That's a beast!

Thanks for the link. Just read it in full.
post #81 of 237
Ah almost twenty kilogram less than my little ol' BV600s;-).
post #82 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Ok, thanks Mike. Anyone know whats a good anamorphic lense for the Mico? Name and retail price would be helpful. Thanks

You might want to look at the Prismasonic also. Give us a call if we can help you.
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post #83 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Ok, thanks Mike. Anyone know whats a good anamorphic lense for the Mico? Name and retail price would be helpful. Thanks

If you are going to get such a nice projector, I highly recommend an Isco which has same or better glass than the PJ's presumably high quality lens. I've got 2 B-stock IIILs inbound for inspection. Rare occurrence. Digital Projection released 2 they had extra from the shows. Presuming they are in perfect condition as described, and don't go beforehand, I'll be listing one of them in the classified here.
post #84 of 237
Ok...I managed to get in a few hours with it last night and can share a few initial observations...no numbers or measurements -- I'll leave that for others -- just impressions and comparisons with other projectors I've owned and/or experienced.

First a few details regarding various elements:
Screen: 100" (49 x 87) Stewart Firehawk G3 (1.25 gain)
Room: Flat black walls and ceiling starting at the screen wall and for 8' back towards the viewing area, transitioning every 4' to lighter shades of gray (i.e. gray scale paint scheme)
Source: Panasonic BD310 3D Blu-ray player
Ambient light: controllable
T1 lens about 14' back

On to first impressions...

Knowing that the question on everyone's mind is brightness, I'll jump into that first. The M150 is way brighter than the MICO 50 I once owned. I could only overscan the screen a couple feet on each side before running out of wall, and in 2D the image on screen held up, but in 3D it was a bit challenged. 3D became more watchable when I brought it back down to between 1 - 1.5ft overscan per side. That equates to about a 135" image width in 2D and maybe 116" or so in 3D. Of course screen materials with higher gains would enable larger image sizes and/or more punch. My "little" 100" screen was a piece of cake for this projector. I think a 1.3 to 1.5 gain in light-controlled spaces could support up to a 123 -133 diag (1.78). Larger screens would benefit from 170 or HP or PearlBrite type gain (particularly in 3D mode).

Now that that's out of the way, on to weightier matters. If you favor soft dreamy vintage-film-type images, the M150 is not for you. This projector renders images that are so detailed and crisp and vibrant its like the glossy photos of a National Geographic magazine -- only with motion and 3D depth. Blacks are impressive. In the IMAX "Space Station 3D", shots of the shuttle, astronauts and space station against the blackness of space were amazing...inky blacks that seemed to defy the reality that projectors don't project black. Color is outstanding as well...a strong point of LED. Reds and greens were fully saturated and natural looking. "Amazon" is my reference for color. Serapis are gorgeous but not hyped, reptiles, fish and birds are dazzling without straining credulity.

As for 3D, I've been spoiled by my brief exposure to the Lumis SOLO with more native brightness and triple flash, but I have to say that the M150 bests it in sharpness and detail (as only a single-chip DLP can). I would say that the 3D performance is on par with that of the NERO...smooth, ghost and jitter free."Under the Sea 3D", "The Ultimate Wave Tahiti 3D" and "Legends of Flight" all looked great. Disney's "A Christmas Carol", however, did not play back as well as it did on the SOLO. It has a lot of very dark scenes that are not as well illuminated on the 150.

Negatives: This sucker is HEAVY! I suppose this could be a positive for some as it speaks to a lot of product content, but lugging it up several flights of stairs was not pleasant. In the box it weighed in at 70lbs. The other thing that might trouble some...it's not quiet. It's not super loud either and there's no whining color wheel, but the fan(s) do seem to operate at a fairly robust level...I'd say between 32 and 34dB. Of course I was sitting right next to it and there was no audio to distract me. When I walked around the projector, it seemed less noticeable from the front, so I imagine if it is mounted up and behind the seating area, it should be tolerable. One good thing...they seem to have conquered the buzzing power supply problem that plagued my MICO 50.

I will have more to share after I spend a few more nights with it and can experiment with unfamiliar settings. Overall...no remorse...very pleased.
post #85 of 237
Thanks for your thoughts! I'm really glad to hear that you're so happy with the machine.

I am a bit disappointed to hear that the projector's fans are louder than expected. This is something that I would appreciate your thoughts on later on, once you have it all dialed in and you've spent some time watching movies. But, 32-34dB would be 10-12dB louder than the Sony VW95, so that's not a trivial difference.

I've spent an inordinate amount of money for utmost sound quality in my room (ultra-quiet ductwork, etc, etc), and the one thing we couldn't solve was a projector enclosure. So, I have to have a quiet projector since it will be in the room. I had high hopes for the MICO, and one of Sim2's folks said at CEDIA that he expected the 150 to be quieter than the 50.

How would you say it compares in sound level to the Solo, or to other projectors you've heard? Ones I've been considering include the Sony VPL-VW95ES, the JVC RS55, or the Sony VPL-VW1000ES. Of course, there's more to sound than just SPL -- there's also the character of the sound (buzzing versus whooshing, etc, etc), so a machine with a quiet but harsh buzz might be more annoying than a machine with a louder "whoosh". Along those lines, I'm glad to hear that they killed the power supply buzz!

It's nice to hear how good it looks otherwise, though. I so want to see it myself. Regarding A Christmas Carol, when you say that it wasn't as well illuminated, do you mean that it was just dim because the projector doesn't have enough light, or was it something about dynamic range?

I never looked at the Nero seriously because I could immediately see the color separation artifacts from the color wheel, so I don't have a good reference there. Was there more noticeable flicker from the glasses than you got with the Solo's Triple Flash?

You didn't mention any signs of color separation (rainbow), so I'm assuming that you have noticed none?

Anyway, again, congrats on your projector and I hope you enjoy it!
post #86 of 237
Oh, one last thing: Sim2 tout the very short blanking interval with the glasses on this machine. Do you have a sense for whether this is resulting in less light lost in 3D versus other 3D projectors?
post #87 of 237
Mike,
The noise level, while a bit high, is not the dissonant or resonant kind. It's just the sound of the fans blowing air at a good clip. I would say that it is a little more than a SOLO but not a lot. I think I read somewhere that the SOLO is about 30dB and it doesn't seem to have been a big issue for people. You have to be careful about these numbers because there is no standard way manufactures arrive at their stated levels. I've heard projectors that were said to be in the low 20s and they sounded just as loud or louder than others rated in the low 30s. For me, this parameter is way down the list in importance compared to image quality and processing.

As for "the Christmas Carol"...I was talking about the effect that a lower native brightness had relative to the higher brightness of the SOLO. Some of the extremely difficult dark scenes (in 3D) looked better on the SOLO....but were still watchable on the M150.

On the NERO/M150 120Hz vs. SOLO 144Hz, It is subtle. I have trouble seeing much of a difference. I don't know if I'm imagining fleeting moments of faint flicker in certain scenes or if it's really there. With 96Hz 3D I see it more readily and its distracting.

And the blanking question...don't know. It sounds plausible that shorter intervals would result in less light loss. I suspect that this combined with Helmholtz-Kohlrausch makes it possible to support 3D so well.
post #88 of 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

Having owned a MICO 50, I'm convinced that LED brightness is perceived to be brighter than the ANSI number would suggest. I can't wait to see how much brighter the M150 appears to be over the MICO 50. The fact that SIM2 saw fit to incorporate 3D suggests that it is significantly brighter. I should know tonight...assuming my projector arrives as promised and I can get home from dinner out with the wife with my faculties intact.

if it is properly calibrated wouldn't the saturation effects be the same as a bulb projector? Also the led used in this projector is the Phatlight 120 and this is the same led used in the first generation of projectors

I think you could have much more control of the color at low light levels and the image would be more relaxing to watch with almost zero rainbows.

I have heard that glasses in 3d attenuate the light by 75 percent so if you are looking at a 100 diagonal gain 1 screen and want 16 ft lamberts Brightness than you would need around 1900 D65 lumens which would mean you would have to start with around 3000 lumens uncalibrated
post #89 of 237
Good news guys. Sim2 folks were kind enough to redo the white paper and make it available for the public.

I wrote a quick intro to the projector and attached the paper to the end of the write up. Click here to see it.

Happy reading!
post #90 of 237
Amir, awesome! Thanks, I know what I'm reading over dinner tonight.

Pete, thanks very much for your further thoughts. I've heard the Solo, and it was definitely too loud for my room, so if the MICO is in the same ballpark, I will likely have to write it off. I totally sympathize with your emphasis of video quality over noise level, but given that I have Keith Yates doing the acoustical design and noise reduction of my theater, we're really trying to hit an aggressive noise floor target. If my house could have accommodated a projection booth, we would have built one, but it just wasn't in the cards, sadly.

I still want to see one of these in person, because there's no substitute for seeing and hearing for oneself, but it does seem like I may lean more in the direction of one of the whisper quiet LCoS machines at least for now.
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