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*Official* Pioneer N-50 Network Audio Player Thread - Page 6

post #151 of 301
I suppose I have been spolt by JRiver Media Centre 18 which I use on my other system as renderer. JRiver's own Android controller called "Gizmo" was a piece of unstable junk IMO and had to be uninstalled. BubbleUPnP controls JRiver better than their own product and with perfect stability, gapless and a slider. That other system uses a DAC which will accept the beautifully controlled/controllable digital stream as "polished" by JRiver and BubbleUPnP.

The Pioneer machine could be used as a DAC to the same end, but it is supposed to be a renderer in its own right and I purchased it to avoid the expense and trouble of another PC to take a network stream. Less than a day's work on the part of a single Pioneer firmware programmer could see proper gapless and slider-controllability implemented. I do not see it as a price-point issue. I too have to use the ControlApp for gapless, but it is a hideous clunker and very hard to come back to after using competent alternatives. BubbleUPnP cost less than $5.

They could probably sell ten times the volume of machines if they just did this, because the sound quality is superb.
post #152 of 301
I think the less than a day's work would apply if Pioneer (and the others) knew what they were doing with the UPnP/DLNA spec and had a proper design in place. They'd definitely benefit by consulting someone like BubbleUPnP's Bubbleguum or the design team at JRiver.

I've used with the Foobar2000 player with the foo_UPnP plugin (also by Bubbleguum) on the pc together with BubbleUPnP on the phone and it's just so refreshing to see two devices being controlled so well by each other, via UPnP/DLNA, gapless support included!
post #153 of 301
Bubbleguuum is a true professional and extremely good at what he does, is reponsive at the XDA forum and could probably provide a setting in BubbleUPnP to accommodate whatever strange proprietary code it might be that the Pioneer machine wants to get the gapless happening properly. But whatever that is remains a mystery since Pioneer does not seem to interact and help at any English language public forum. It is a very poor show IMO. The good people interact. Why can't Pioneer?
post #154 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorepinky View Post

Bubbleguuum is a true professional and extremely good at what he does, is reponsive at the XDA forum and could probably provide a setting in BubbleUPnP to accommodate whatever strange proprietary code it might be that the Pioneer machine wants to get the gapless happening properly.
I think it's more the case that the player's UPnP/DLNA renderer mode just simply does not support the UPnP/DLNA spec on gapless for this mode. So there are 2 questions on this issue:
Do Pioneer actually understand the spec?
If so, why can't they implement it?

BubbleUPnP is a UPnP/DLNA control point, but the Pioneer ControlApp isn't. The ControlApp is just a substitute for the remote control & device display, firing off N-50/N-30 internal commands to control the box and receiving display feedback info, all via telnet. Gapless support via UPnP/DLNA streaming has been provided here, but that's because the box's firmware is under full control as it knows what all the tracks are. This is not the same as when it is being used as a renderer, when the control is via a UPnP/DLNA control point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sorepinky View Post

But whatever that is remains a mystery since Pioneer does not seem to interact and help at any English language public forum. It is a very poor show IMO. The good people interact. Why can't Pioneer?
I agree completely. Makes you wonder if they even respond in any of the Japanese forums. Can't imagine there aren't any N-50 issues mentioned there, we're all using the same firmware. If they do respond, then it's doubly worse, because they're certainly not doing much to sort the problems out.
Edited by Cebolla - 8/11/13 at 10:26am
post #155 of 301
Hi,

How would N-50 DAC's SQ compare to asynch USB DACs at any price. The current offerings that is. I'm guessing it beats most of the DAC's from only few years back.

Are any of the peculiarities of N-50 discussed in this thread apply if only using DAC? No interest in any other features save maybe the thumb drive player.

Thanks,
Serge
post #156 of 301
The sound quality of the N-50 should be as good as if not better than current DAC only devices costing about the same. Of course the advice is as always with hifi kit, try to demo one before you buy.

The main issues discussed here have all been to do with network streaming. The only known DAC issue is that it is still unclear as to whether it supports the 176.4kHz sample rate specifically through the async USB DAC input. The N-50s uses the HQ USB audio class 2 (UAC2) interface chip, the C-Media CM6631, which officially supports all standard sample rates up to 192kHz, except 176.4kHz. This was supposed to have been resolved with a combination of firmware and Pioneer supplied Windows audio driver fixes. There are no such issues with the coax and optical inputs, BTW.
post #157 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cebolla View Post

The sound quality of the N-50 should be as good as if not better than current DAC only devices costing about the same. Of course the advice is as always with hifi kit, try to demo one before you buy.

The main issues discussed here have all been to do with network streaming. The only known DAC issue is that it is still unclear as to whether it supports the 176.4kHz sample rate specifically through the async USB DAC input. The N-50s uses the HQ USB audio class 2 (UAC2) interface chip, the C-Media CM6631, which officially supports all standard sample rates up to 192kHz, except 176.4kHz. This was supposed to have been resolved with a combination of firmware and Pioneer supplied Windows audio driver fixes. There are no such issues with the coax and optical inputs, BTW.

Thanks Cebolla. N-50 is pretty rare so no way to demo. I was thinking of buying used. Newbie question: what is the significance of 176.4kHz? Don’t hi-rez releases come in all formats. If I cannot get one in 176.4kHz, I could in 192kHz, could I not. My familiarity with digital ends with redbook.
post #158 of 301
Not necessarily. It depends on the original intension for the source material. If it was intended for CD, then the source material can be used to produce resolutions in multiples of the redbook sample rate of 44.1kHz, which would include 176.4KHz. If it was intended for professional broadcasting with the industry standard 48kHz sample rate, then 192kHz would be one of the multiples. So to have both sample rates, the original intention would have to have been for both CD & broadcast.
post #159 of 301
Hi Cebolla
I have bought new USB flash Kingsto?n DataTraveler Micro 32GB but N-50 does not want to see it. Any idea how to solve this new problem?
post #160 of 301
Hi Micmic,

By saying that the N-50 'does not want to see it', are you saying the USB input screen remains with the -- Empty -- text displayed, after inserting your memory stick?

If so, the only thing I can think of is that the USB data storage device needs to be FAT32 & FAT16 formatted for the N-50 to be able to read it and may be the Kingston isn't. USB flash drives normally come FAT32 formatted, so this is a bit of a long shot. Did you reformat the flash drive to NTFS, for example? Otherwise if it is FAT32 & FAT16 formatted & you are sure the Kingston is working ok (so reads well on a computer, etc), then it may be worth contacting Pioneer support to see if they know what the problem could be. Have you tried another memory stick in the N-50 as it's possible that the USB input itself may be faulty?

If the USB input screen changes from --Empty-- text to blank display when inserting the Kingston, then the N-50 has read it, but for some reason it is not displaying the audio files that are there. It will only display file types that it supports and only with a recognised file extension, so for example .flac for FLAC files & .wav for WAV files must be used. If you are getting a blank display, then what audio file types are they and what are their extensions?
post #161 of 301
Hi Cebolla

the USB Kingston has been formated as FAT32, it is working in laptop, just N50 is not able to read it. [USB "empty"].My other USB's working fine in N50. So I think I need to contact Pioneer support but in a manual for N50 is written that some USB type N50 will not read....but I can try. Thanks for afford.
post #162 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cebolla View Post

Not necessarily. It depends on the original intension for the source material. If it was intended for CD, then the source material can be used to produce resolutions in multiples of the redbook sample rate of 44.1kHz, which would include 176.4KHz. If it was intended for professional broadcasting with the industry standard 48kHz sample rate, then 192kHz would be one of the multiples. So to have both sample rates, the original intention would have to have been for both CD & broadcast.

Thanks Cebolla. Would you know if N-50 can be used as a DAC with something like Jriver or other non-pioneer audio software.
post #163 of 301
Yes, the N-50 being a DAC streamer can be used just as any other DAC. There is no Pioneer music playback computer software as such anyway, so you will have to use something like JRiver or Foobar2000 to playback to the N-50 as a DAC. You will need to install the provided Pioneer USB audio 2.0 driver, if you want to use it with a Windows computer as a USB DAC, since Windows still doesn't support USB audio 2.0 (latest MAC & Linux computers do, so no need for driver with them).
post #164 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cebolla View Post

Yes, the N-50 being a DAC streamer can be used just as any other DAC. There is no Pioneer music playback computer software as such anyway, so you will have to use something like JRiver or Foobar2000 to playback to the N-50 as a DAC. You will need to install the provided Pioneer USB audio 2.0 driver, if you want to use it with a Windows computer as a USB DAC, since Windows still doesn't support USB audio 2.0 (latest MAC & Linux computers do, so no need for driver with them).


Thanks Cebolla. Will be picking one up.
post #165 of 301
Prices are all over the place for n-50. New ones on Nexxgg and Exxy for $478. I see one used on auxxxxon for $399. I thought they were around $700 new. Either prices went down or I am not understanding something.
Edited by Serge_S - 9/1/13 at 7:27am
post #166 of 301
I think street prices should be around $600. If you can a new one for less than $500, then that's excellent value!
post #167 of 301
Posted this question in another forum, but if I have an ELITE VSX-52 and plan to use AirPlay to stream my Hi Res in Apple Lossless from my Mac, do I even need to purchase something like this? Or do I just buy the Apple Lossless tracks and play with my current set up.
post #168 of 301
You cannot stream hi-res Apple Lossless aka ALAC using AirPlay, since AirPlay only streams in 16bit/44.1kHz ALAC (eg CD quality resolution), assuming by hi-res you mean resolutions greater than 16bit/44.1kHz.

So, ironically, you can ONLY currently stream hi-res Apple Lossless by non-Apple means! I've done a quick search for the file formats that your AVR supports for industry standard UPnP/DLNA streaming and unfortunately ALAC isn't one of them, let alone hi-res (strange as it needs to decode the ALAC stream by supporting AirPlay - so probably done internally by propriatry Apple Airplay chip).

Certainly a device like the Pioneer N-50 supports hi-res ALAC up to the 24bit/96kHz resolution, via both UPnP/DLNA and its USB mass storage input. However, you can probably get away with having to use one of these streamers, if you can use a UPnP/DLNA server that can transcode (decode bit perfectly on the fly) the ALAC files to WAV or LPCM, which your AVR does support up to a very healthy resolution of 24bit/192kHz!

What device do you intend using to store the Apple Lossless files?
Edited by Cebolla - 9/8/13 at 8:22am
post #169 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cebolla View Post

You cannot stream hi-res Apple Lossless aka ALAC using AirPlay, since AirPlay only streams in 16bit/44.1kHz ALAC (eg CD quality resolution), assuming by hi-res you mean resolutions greater than 16bit/44.1kHz.

So, ironically, you can ONLY currently stream hi-res Apple Lossless by non-Apple means! I've done a quick search for the file formats that your AVR supports for industry standard UPnP/DLNA streaming and unfortunately ALAC isn't one of them, let alone hi-res (strange as it needs to decode the ALAC stream by supporting AirPlay - so probably done internally by propriatry Apple Airplay chip).

Certainly a device like the Pioneer N-50 supports hi-res ALAC up to the 24bit/96kHz resolution, via both UPnP/DLNA and its USB mass storage input. However, you can probably get away with having to use one of these streamers, if you can use a UPnP/DLNA server that can transcode (decode bit perfectly on the fly) the ALAC files to WAV or LPCM, which your AVR does support up to a very healthy resolution of 24bit/192kHz!

What device do you intend using to store the Apple Lossless files?

Thanks for the guidance. My files will be stored on my MacBook most immediately, but I also have an external drive and a Time Capsule for backup.
post #170 of 301
Ok, I was wondering if you were going to be using a NAS, which would have possibly governed the choice of UPnP/DLNA server, as most NASs can run one, but only can run certain ones. As it is you are restricted to using a UPnP/DLNA server that can run on the Mac. JRiver can transcode ALAC, and so can the Logitech Media Server (requires the UPnP/DLNA plugin), I believe. Also, the rather excellent Minimserver is supposed to able to trancsode ALAC in a future update, due soon, apparently.
Edited by Cebolla - 9/8/13 at 10:10am
post #171 of 301
Hello

My first post here....

I am thinking of buying an N50 to replace my SB Touch, the question I have is about the server software.

Any recommendations as to which to use and which to avoid - I have the Logitech Squeezeserver and Twonky on
my NAS at present - will either of these do ?

Thanks

Graham
post #172 of 301
Welcome to the forum, Graham.

Should be Ok with the Logitech server, as long as you can upgrade it to the latest Logitech Media Server version and have the UPnP/DLNA plugin installed. Some versions of Twonky have been reported as having problems.

Other recommended UPnP/DLNA servers (if you can install them on your NAS) Minimserver & Serviio.
Edited by Cebolla - 9/10/13 at 8:57am
post #173 of 301
Thanks Cebolla

I will be finding out tomorrow as I have ordered an N50....

There seem to be a lot of websites detailing how to install Serviio on QNAP NAS's so I may give it a try as the Logitech s/w is no longer supported.

A case of watch this space.

GR
post #174 of 301
No problem. It will be interesting to see how the N-50 compares with the SBT from someone who's owned both.
post #175 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cebolla View Post

No problem. It will be interesting to see how the N-50 compares with the SBT from someone who's owned both.

I expect the SBT will acquit itself rather well - it is an accomplished little device. I cannot understand why Logitech are dropping it - they should have repackaged it is a more normal box with psu....

It might take me a bit of time to do a proper comparison as I will effectively be comparing DACS (in the SBT and Rega in my case) as well as network players.

What about apps ?, I know there is a Pioneer app that is supposed to be a bit naff (but functional) - are there others that will work ? I currently use OrangeSqueeze, I was hoping that it will recognise the N50 as well ?

Graham
post #176 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by graham-r View Post

What about apps ?, I know there is a Pioneer app that is supposed to be a bit naff (but functional) - are there others that will work ? I currently use OrangeSqueeze, I was hoping that it will recognise the N50 as well ?
Probably won't work as it needs to be a UPnP/DLNA control point which allows the N-50 to be used as a renderer. You could try something like the excellent BubbleUPnP app (Android) to get better features such as playlists, cloud services & album art(!!). Bare in mind that the N-50 doesn't support gapless playback when used as a UPnP/DLNA renderer (in keeping with most other streamers). So for live albums, etc, it might be best to stick with the Pioneer ControlApp. I tend to use both, as and when. Good thing is you can pick up BubbleUPnP's saved playlists from the N-50 and therefore its ControlApp, since BubbleUPnP makes its playlists accessible via its own UPnP/DLNA server (runs in the background on the Android device).

Quote:
Originally Posted by graham-r View Post

I expect the SBT will acquit itself rather well - it is an accomplished little device. I cannot understand why Logitech are dropping it - they should have repackaged it is a more normal box with psu....

It might take me a bit of time to do a proper comparison as I will effectively be comparing DACS (in the SBT and Rega in my case) as well as network players.
Good that you've still got the SBT. Wow, comparing SBT + Rega vs N-50, SBT + Rega vs N-50 (as streamer transport) + Rega, SBT + Rega vs SBT + N-50 (as DAC), any other combos...? - have fun! biggrin.gif
Edited by Cebolla - 9/12/13 at 9:50am
post #177 of 301
Plenty of comparison options there (my comment re comparing DACS did of course mean the N50 and Rega...)

But the initial impression of the sound (through the Rega) is that it is excellent, at first I though that the HF showed the largest improvement over the SBT/Rega, it is very clear an defined but now I think the bass shows much more control - which is useful when using BC1's on a suspended wooden floor wink.gif. The SBT is still a real giant killer though.

Pioneer have missed a trick though as the SBT system seems to be the more thoroughly developed, the N50 is missing a number of useful features like built-in S/W update and a volume control !

I have installed the latest S/W update so maybe things will be a bit more reliable, the N50 certainly had trouble handling raw wav over the network using the same settings/server (LMS) that the SBT had used with no problem, albeit the SBT used the proprietary server and the N50 used the DNLA part.

I have had trouble getting the Qnap NAS version of Twonky and the built in DNLA server (probably LMS based ?) to be reliable and be easy to set up. The latter both use the same media settings that appear to have been broken in a recent update ! You cannot set exact directories to find audio content, as a result I have duplicated flac/mp3 songs in each album. Plex however (ported to the Qnap) does allow you to set these things separately so I am trying that today (but it is so slooooooooooooooow scanning though !). So far so good.

Overall I really like the N50 - when the Pioneer system is fully developed it will be excellent, might even buy a future version that handles video as well.....

One other question though - the front panel controls - play/pause etc (and maybe those on the remote) don't seem to always work - when I am using an app to control things - is this normal ?
post #178 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by graham-r View Post

One other question though - the front panel controls - play/pause etc (and maybe those on the remote) don't seem to always work - when I am using an app to control things - is this normal ?
Assuming you're using a UPnP/DLNA control point app, this is normal because you are placing the N-50 in renderer (slave) mode, so the idea is that playback navigation control is now fully in the hands of the app. The same would be true if you were using the Pioneer as an AirPlay playback device.

The Pioneer ControlApp is NOT a UPnP/DLNA control point, but a network remote control for the N-50 and the N-50 is still fully in charge. So there should be no problems using the buttons on the box or the IR remote control when controlling the N-50 with the ControlApp.
post #179 of 301
Hi everybody, it's my first post. Sorry for my language, i'm a french guy...
What's about radio on pioneer N50? I can't get it but only this message "erreur de serveur". I can go to sites like: http://www.vtuner.com or http://pioneer.vtuner.com. There is no way to get access code on my pioneer N50!!! No menu Help in the menu "internet radio". Can you help me Cebolla?
post #180 of 301
No need for the apology, I can understand you quite well. Even though I'm a '(Spanish) onion' by name (well half Spanish in reality), I still resort to google translate when attempting to read/write most French correspondence, I'm ashamed to say!

Yes, assuming that either of those vtuner sites are hosted by the same server that the N-50 needs to access, you've probably got a firewall on your network blocking the N-50's access to/from the site's server, probably by restricting the network communication ports it requires or may be even a complete internet access block. By the way, I am also assuming that you accessed the vtuner web pages on a computer attached to the same network going through the same ISP as the N-50 and that your N-50 is properly connected to the network.
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