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Sony VPL-VW1000ES vs. JVC DLA-X90R shoot out - Page 7

post #181 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

more subjective comments. "My guests thinks it looks great' and 'Plenty bright' does not give a usable frame of reference. It shouldn't be seen as an attack for trying to validate the small sample of owners that seem to have ~1000 lumens in 3D mode. If there's better, less subjective info, let's hear it. Light meters are cheap as dirt.
We tear down every projector to the bone and attack JVC like the enemy of the state, but for some reason we can't try to find out some hard facts on the VW1000's 3D mode. I realize it's expensive and there is a certain pride of ownership., but this used to be the AV(S)cience forum where #'s used to fly around like it was nothing - even on the expensive projectors.
It either puts out 1000 lumens in 3D or it doesn't. I have 1/2 dozen quality light meters I can lend out, it takes 5 minutes to measure the lumen output in 3D.

Greetings Zombie and everyone else,

This is just a ramble. I know you love the detailed specs, but saying: "My guests thinks it looks great' and 'Plenty bright' does not give a usable frame of reference" is false. It can be most enlightening, depending on your purpose of having the projector, and the other comments that further clarify. On an average week I have guests in my theater watching something or other, perhaps 15 hours - from sports to 3D to 2D movies, to whatever. As a result, my considerations are all factors that affect not just my viewing, but more typical group viewing.

And around here when a phrase like "plenty bright "is used in conjunction with 3D, that means no one my audience quit on the 3D, didn't insist I drop back to 2D, or just complained, because of dimness. (BTW none of these folks own their own projector (except of course my immediate family). Now I like a bright picture (that's been consistent across almost 200 home theater projector reviews), and that's definitely true in 3D. But even when I find some 3D I'm showing is "marginal" that I can still enjoy it (say watching Hugo on a 100" Studiotek 130, with a JVC X70, or the same Hugo filling my full 124" diagonal (same screen) with the 1000ES, I find that more than one of my guests will not not want to watch an entire movie that way, it's just too dim for them. That's the important stuff I'm trying to share.

My point is that knowing the exact lumens in 3D doesn't tell anyone anything as to whether the projector is bright enough for each individual. 1000 lumens may be bright enough for you, but not for me...

Subjective evaluation is all about perspective. For example, I could categorically make a statement like this: If you have 3D on measuring 1000 lumens with a 1.3 gain Studiotek 130, and a JVC X70, and your screen size in your cave is 100 inches diagonal, I can guarantee you that some of your friends will find it uncomfortably dim to watch.

When I am speaking subjectively about 3D brightness - as I do extensively, though, there's always a lot more than one sentence like that. I may not provide lumen counts, but I do relate the relative projector brightness between projectors. It's clear, for example, on our site, that The Epson in 3D is brighter than the Sony VW1000ES which is brighter than the JVC...

re: lumen counts: Measuring lumens before they hit your screen doesn't account for the different glasses, and in some cases different "glasses settings" affect the brightness reaching your eye, but have 0 effect on the brightness measured... That is, with one pair of glasses/setting, the same projector might have the equivalent brightness 20% less than the same projector with different glasses and glasses settings! I appreciate the idea of testing the pass through of all different compatible glasses, etc., but for 97% of those shopping for projectors, they just want "bright enough" and not 5 pages of detailed measurements, (and still have to draw their own conclusions of course. Don't forget, of course, you have to publish zoom lens positioning as well. wide angle and telephoto on most projectors vary by 30% or more in brightness, though surprisingly the VW1000Es with a 2.1:1 zoom had relatively less brightness loss as you go to tele.

Now unless your friends are very different than mine, that should hold. But, the point may be this: Are you looking at your gear just for your own viewing, or are you satisfying the needs of others as well? If you are writing for people with 5 different ideas of acceptable vs dim, then until you define the definition of what is dim - a test, readers still can't tell, what is bright enough for them. You may need 650 lumens on your setup to be thrilled with Hugo at 142 inches, but the next person won't be happy until 1100 lumens for the same setup...

I can't easily determine the range of acceptable brightness for all people, but then I do pass enough folks through my theater for viewing, and try to get as much feedback as possible. During the weeks with the 1000ES for example, I'd guess that at least 15 people watched at least one full length 2D movie, and at least 6 at least one 3D full length movie. Then, maybe 15 additional people got to watch the first 20 minutes of Hugo... I get a lot of feedback. They don't care about numbers, only dim, only crosstalk if they notice it, etc. BTW I had 5 pair of Sony glasses when the VW1000ES was here (still have 3 pair I own). I currently also have 5 pair of Epson glasses here (and a 5010), etc. I'm the proud owner, at the moment of some 18-20 pair of active glasses from at least 6 different brands. if projectors weren't confusing enough... how about choosing between two pair of glasses, one a touch brighter, but also a touch too cool, and a second pair - less bright, color right on... Now just to confuse things, the cooler pair is the more comfortable pair... (the reason I had 5 sony, and still have 5 Epson is so that my guests can all view using the same glasses.

Side note, those of us with large heads tend to prefer Epson glasses as more comfortable than Sony, and those with smaller heads, favor the Sony...

Zombie, you mention you have a test for 3D brightness that I can get, Can it be run through HDMI on my MacBook, or my PS3? Let me know how, and I'll give measuring 3D a shot. Tell me more. I tried private email, but I seem "rejected". Sadly, both the JVC and Sony are now gone, but I can start with the Epson 5010, which will be a good reference until that model is replaced by Epson. -art

PS, re light meters - how close are your "half dozen" Between Mike Tony and I, we only have 5 different meters - two of one kind, to of another, and 1 additional. The brightness range between them seems to vary by more than 13%. One pair of identical meters (both with fresh batteries), vary by almost 5%. Fortunately, Mike does all the measurements of home theater projectors with one of his two identical ones. It is the lowest measuring of the 5. Conservative is good. It also explains why our overall lumen measurements tend to be a bit lower than some other reports. But then we don't do ANSI lumens anyway, our lumen counts are good for comparing two projectors based only on our measurements, which is the way it should be, because of variation from meter to meter. -a
post #182 of 198
It would make sense that a 4k projector is sharper, simply because the pixels are smaller so it has a lot more range in error, hence the optics engineers are going to have to tighten the tolerance or they are going to blur the finer pixels at that resolution too easily and once you blur it enough than the extra resolution is almost pointless.

I'm not going to touch the screenshot discussion, I'm retired from that one...

The way I take lumen measurements is I just have 2 meters and instead of taking the standard 9-point ANSI measurement, I just take a 2 or 3-point measurement and average the 2 meters. That is probably a good quick way to do it. Who wants to sit there and read 9-points on the screen, and besides without a proper alignment device telling us the angle of our wrists, it's pretty hard to actually even get the 9-point average anyways. Even if you just move your wrist until you get the highest reading, that still doesn't really work perfectly unless you sit there for a while (and I'm too impatient to bother).

The same rules in 3D pretty much apply from 2D, 10 fL to 12 fL is pretty much bright enough for most content but it depends what you are watching. That doesn't mean you can't appreciate more, I mean 16 fL to 20 fL is really bright in 3D, you also have to figure that a lot of 3D content tends to be bright anyhow (like animated stuff especially). I mean the good thing is we aren't watching too many old westerns in 3D with poor contrast causing a darkening effect.

There are times I like just to watch something abnormally bright just for the pop and punch effect, but I mean in general there really are some pretty sound standards here keeping it between say 14 fL to 18 fL for most fairly well darkened rooms, because otherwise things get a little too intense on the brightness in some content.

Going below 10 fL to 14 fL isn't the end of the world in 3D, I mean you lose POP in some scenes but you do get a little bit more perceivable contrast in other scenes. Those real bright scenes aren't going to POP as much, but I mean it's still fine.
Edited by coderguy - 6/20/12 at 12:26am
post #183 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Greetings, while I didn't lay my hands on an X90 or RS65 this year, last year I did have both the RS50 and RS60.
There was a distinct difference in clarity between the two. My own take was that the bulk of any difference was due to the optics, rather than anything else. I remember being really impressed with a "sense of clarity" that other projectors simply lacked.
The VW1000ES also always seemed like that to me, compared to whatever I had around during the 5-6 weeks with the Sony, whether the X70 or other projectors. The VW95ES in "clarity" (er, zombie10k, are we allowed to talk subjectively here, or are we going to have to start measuring lens performance? - for you spec fanatics). With both hat RS60 and the VW1000ES it sort of "looked like" in the old days, when I spent a lot of time with 35mm photography, and briefly had use of a very expensive Canon f1.2 lens, I think - it was 30 years ago), compared to my own f1.4 55mm (or 58, who can remember?). I think that lens was about 3x the price of mine, which was a lot more than the standard lens. At any rate, the optical difference between the two lenses was "obvious". I suspect the VW1000ES optics are also a step up from the VW95ES, but that could be illusion due to the inherent additional detail with 2->4K or pure 4K. -art


Hi Art

appreciate the feed back/ your experiences with the 1000ES and thanks for the review.


dj
post #184 of 198
Projector Reviews VW1000
vpl-vw1000es_logo_playstation_2_large.jpg
X90-PS3-Sharp.jpg
JVC X90
post #185 of 198
Kevin... What one do you like better?
post #186 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

Projector Reviews VW1000
vpl-vw1000es_logo_playstation_2_large.jpg
X90-PS3-Sharp.jpg
JVC X90

These pictures clearly favors the VW1000 so I think we can lay these screenshots dead now...smile.gif
post #187 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

These pictures clearly favors the VW1000 so I think we can lay these screenshots dead now...smile.gif

Not quite yet IF i purchase a Darbee Vision i will do more comparisons of the same.
post #188 of 198
Do some 3D comparison shots! wink.gif
post #189 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Do some 3D comparison shots! wink.gif

Put the Darby on both and compare as well..
post #190 of 198
Just get a 1000 in Zombies hands so he can put it through the 3d ringer and compare it to other units wink.gif.
post #191 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

These pictures clearly favors the VW1000 so I think we can lay these screenshots dead now...smile.gif

You can't compare screen shots, unless all conditions are the same (including camera settings) and I doubt that they are close to the same. Judging by the screen shot, a Darbee is not going to make up the difference. Though I do think a Darbee will improve the image of any projector. I like what the Darbee does with my JVC. smile.gif
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post #192 of 198
3D screen shots can be compared for crosstalk. smile.gif
post #193 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

You can't compare screen shots, unless all conditions are the same (including camera settings) and I doubt that they are close to the same. Judging by the screen shot, a Darbee is not going to make up the difference. Though I do think a Darbee will improve the image of any projector. I like what the Darbee does with my JVC. smile.gif

If you read my other replies on screenshots you will see that I say just the same as you do. I don`t think the Darbee will improve the image of the VW1000...
post #194 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post


.... I don`t think the Darbee will improve the image of the VW1000...

I have recently added a D between my Radiance and VW1000.   With the D set to 40 or so (HiDef mode) I can easily see that it makes the pic contrastier but I don't think sharper.    Too much of this I find bad, but a bit is nice.

post #195 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I have recently added a D between my Radiance and VW1000.   With the D set to 40 or so (HiDef mode) I can easily see that it makes the pic contrastier but I don't think sharper.    Too much of this I find bad, but a bit is nice.

I am trying to get one for myself to test on the VW1000, but I think it will do a better job on my 65"VT30. But this is not sold in Europe so I have to import one from USA, so I think I don´t bother...
post #196 of 198
i set the darbee on 35 and it makes the image better on the 1000. makes certain areas contrasty which appears sharper. probably not as much as jvc since the image is probably sharper already on the 1000. for me more than 35 starts looking unsmooth..
post #197 of 198
X90 White 1.2gain about 100" diag size 12` from screen. 1000 pixel sample same as below needless to say origional is sharper.
X90-Sharpness.jpg
vpl-vw1000es_logo_playstation_1_large.jpg
VW1000 Projector Reviews sample
X90-sharp-Green.jpg
X90 Ps3 color Green
Edited by Kevin 3000 - 6/24/12 at 2:20pm
post #198 of 198
What color is the PS3 dashboard symbols supposed to be? They are blue on the JVC and green on the Sony. Can owners select dashboard symbol color on the PS3?
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