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Edogg's Dual LMS AIY (Assemble It Yourself) Build - Page 14

post #391 of 589
5/29/12 at 8:54am
The old 5400's were originally titanium but later on while manufacturing later batches they had problems with their supplier and the dishes were often defective. They then switched to aluminum. The AudioPulse branded LMS-U's were also aluminum, iirc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

Old early 5400's ( prototypes) were aluminum cones, then they went to titanium which was something like 22% thinner, but heavier as well as stronger. They said that there was a high cosmetic defect rate with the ti cones, along with the high cost. I suspect that helped the move back to aluminum in the newer versions.

Ah, I see Mr. Hurd got it before me.
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post #392 of 589
5/30/12 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

Are you sure the prototypes weren't the titanium versions?

Ricci's review on data-bass.com says the cone is aluminum. Also, in the picture of the cone, it has a dent it in, which also leads be to believe it's aluminum, since titanium is super strong yet brittle at its breaking point. I don't think titanium would dent like that.

Yes, I am sure, I have a pair of Ti cone LMS 5400's along with Ti cone PR's, a 15" TC3000 with a Ti cone, and a Ti 12" TC3000 top assembly. Also, I have a pair of 15" TC1000's. { aluminum cone }

This is what the TI cone looks like, disregard the spec of dust on the clear, that's not a blemish.
LL
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post #393 of 589
5/31/12 at 6:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post


Yes, I am sure, I have a pair of Ti cone LMS 5400's along with Ti cone PR's, a 15" TC3000 with a Ti cone, and a Ti 12" TC3000 top assembly. Also, I have a pair of 15" TC1000's. { aluminum cone }

This is what the TI cone looks like, disregard the spec of dust on the clear, that's not a blemish.

Looks goooood... =)

I read somewhere that those were so soild that you could practically stand on the cone...lol I know when the LMS bottoms out it bottoms out hard.

I would bet it's even more of an "event" with the ti cone.

Anyway, to get back on topic... Edizzy! It's about to be June man! Stop spending money getting your ride ready for the track. We want to see you make a kid vomit with a 8hz sine wave. I don't think Keager is going to give up his Clone so what's the latest man.

Consider this my ever persistent weekly status update request...
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post #394 of 589
5/31/12 at 8:13am
Thread Starter 
Same old story bro, trying to save up for that last piece of the puzzle. I'm inching my way closer though, we'll see.
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post #395 of 589
6/7/12 at 9:54am
Thread Starter 
Hey Popalock, 2nd amp ordered! wink.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #396 of 589
6/7/12 at 10:17am
Sweet!
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post #397 of 589
6/9/12 at 3:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Sweet!

Thanks Scott. This one's for you!

eek.gifbiggrin.gif

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gth7yTyHPOw
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post #398 of 589
6/11/12 at 5:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

3db if you were going to give them the full 4,400w from a 14k clone but honestly, I think you're better off with ~2kw into an LMS-U. No need to neuter these beasts with a high pass filter.

Trying to decide between the 14000 and the 10000 (clones), I have 4 Ultras and was wondering if the comment above is related to a 3db loss per driver or the 4 ultras running together.
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post #399 of 589
6/11/12 at 10:02am
Both, sorta. Each driver will produce 3dB output but also as a whole the drop will only be 3dB.

It depends on how large your cabs will be I would personally use the 10000Q cuz 2kw is all the power they would ever need and I don't like using filters. Yeeaagghhh! Spend $1,000 for a driver and be forced to filter out bass? tongue.gif It's your call though but @ 4,400w the LMS-U is out of rated (38mm) Xmax ~23hz in a 4cuft cab and possibly out of Xmax by 30hz in the same cab if we reduce the Xmax to what was measured by Notyt and Josh Ricci recently of around 33mm. Just sayin', you know... go for it but you'll have to filter out the uber deep bass from the world's most uber driver. Kinda lame, imo. I'd rather just use 2kw and make the up the extra SPL elsewhere. But I'm weird and like full bandwidth audio. cool.gif

Also, it would be cheaper to get one 10000Q than two 14000 amps. You save some amp rack shelf space. Also! If you decided you wanted a twin dual-opposed build with quad LMS-U's all you gotta do is wire them in each cab in series and then bridge each pair in the 10000Q for 4,200w @ 8ohms.


Damn, I'm good. tongue.gif
Edited by Scott Simonian - 6/11/12 at 10:42am
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post #400 of 589
6/11/12 at 12:22pm
^^^^^^
The cabs are a shade over 4 cu ft. Basically I want to have the least amount of equipment in the electronic chain. I don't want to worry about damaging the driver ever, just want to crank them loud and know they are safe.

I saw a post were "kutlow" was being advised to keep his Crest amps vs the clones. If the loss is only 3db total I don't think I would be able to tell. The room is only 2100cu ft
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post #401 of 589
6/11/12 at 12:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhisafa View Post

^^^^^^
Basically I want to have the least amount of equipment in the electronic chain. I don't want to worry about damaging the driver ever, just want to crank them loud and know they are safe...................If the loss is only 3db total I don't think I would be able to tell.

If that's the case i'd go with the 10000.

Depending on who you ask 3db's of headroom might be a HUGE deal.
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post #402 of 589
6/11/12 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Both, sorta. Each driver will produce 3dB output but also as a whole the drop will only be 3dB.
It depends on how large your cabs will be I would personally use the 10000Q cuz 2kw is all the power they would ever need and I don't like using filters. Yeeaagghhh! Spend $1,000 for a driver and be forced to filter out bass? tongue.gif It's your call though but @ 4,400w the LMS-U is out of rated (38mm) Xmax ~23hz in a 4cuft cab and possibly out of Xmax by 30hz in the same cab if we reduce the Xmax to what was measured by Notyt and Josh Ricci recently of around 33mm. Just sayin', you know... go for it but you'll have to filter out the uber deep bass from the world's most uber driver. Kinda lame, imo. I'd rather just use 2kw and make the up the extra SPL elsewhere. But I'm weird and like full bandwidth audio. cool.gif
Also, it would be cheaper to get one 10000Q than two 14000 amps. You save some amp rack shelf space. Also! If you decided you wanted a twin dual-opposed build with quad LMS-U's all you gotta do is wire them in each cab in series and then bridge each pair in the 10000Q for 4,200w @ 8ohms.
Damn, I'm good. tongue.gif

I must be doing something wrong if this is the case. I currently have a QSC RMX 5050 that only puts out 1600W/CH. My cabs are only 3.5 ft^3 each and I can easily bottom both of my drivers out with the lower frequencies at moderate listening levels. My test scene is the giant dragon crash in HTTYD. At moderate listening levels I can see the surround deform and hear the driver bottom out. The amp gain knob is set to 24 and MV on my 4311 is at -15.5dB with the sub trim at 0.0dB. My room is ~ 2300 ft^3 and sealed. I would love to be able to NOT use a HPF, but without it, I'll destroy my driver one of these days. Please let me know if there is a problem with my setup. I also have a LG clone waiting to be installed as the QSC is clipping on some of the scenes in Underworld Awakening.
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post #403 of 589
6/11/12 at 1:12pm
sub trim and gain on the amp only matter according to the rest of your setup and what audyssey does for you. is this where audyssey set your subs after calibration? are you running them hot aka adding additional Db's after calibration with audyssey?
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post #404 of 589
6/11/12 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

sub trim and gain on the amp only matter according to the rest of your setup and what audyssey does for you. is this where audyssey set your subs after calibration? are you running them hot aka adding additional Db's after calibration with audyssey?

Amp gain was set during Audyssey calibration. Sub trim was set to -2.5dB so yes I run them a little hot, but nothing extreme. I was just thinking something must be wrong if, according to Scott, I shouldn't need a HPF if running only 1600W to each driver in a sealed 3.5 ft^3 box.
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post #405 of 589
6/11/12 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

I must be doing something wrong if this is the case. I currently have a QSC RMX 5050 that only puts out 1600W/CH. My cabs are only 3.5 ft^3 each and I can easily bottom both of my drivers out with the lower frequencies at moderate listening levels. My test scene is the giant dragon crash in HTTYD. At moderate listening levels I can see the surround deform and hear the driver bottom out. The amp gain knob is set to 24 and MV on my 4311 is at -15.5dB with the sub trim at 0.0dB. My room is ~ 2300 ft^3 and sealed. I would love to be able to NOT use a HPF, but without it, I'll destroy my driver one of these days. Please let me know if there is a problem with my setup. I also have a LG clone waiting to be installed as the QSC is clipping on some of the scenes in Underworld Awakening.

Man... that's sounds like all sorts of right to me. biggrin.gif Sounds like you just need more subs or turn them a dB or two down for the time being. Or maybe just trim down for the odd movie that you know gives it trouble and it sounds like it's only two movies.

Yep. Time for moar subs. wink.gif
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post #406 of 589
6/11/12 at 2:10pm
yea those clips will will present a task for any sub system not HP'd down low, as there is a LOT of <10hz info. at -15 that is a little surprising, but if you are running 2.5db's hot, on that scene, i could still see it happening..
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post #407 of 589
6/11/12 at 2:12pm
Also, if Audyssey is being used then that may be the key to the whole problem for duc135.
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post #408 of 589
6/11/12 at 2:49pm
With the LMS Ultra I would run them with a HPF set to around 11hz and not have to worry about them. Your REALLY don't miss much down low as the 11hz HPF is not a brick wall but you avoid bottoming the sub which is actually quite easy to do with the LMS U. The high intensity/low bass scenes us bass heads love to crank sound so clean on the LMS U that you tend to turn it up even more than other subs and that is when you run into trouble. I have never actually had any trouble running other subs like Mael-X without a HPF but TC subs tend to bottom easier and with the aluminum cone you can tell. I have a TC3000 15" with a nice circular dent in the cone and some soiled shorts from when it happened, no way I was going to make that mistake with the LMS U.

Run other subs without a HPF but with the LMSU you are asking for trouble, just ask Notnyt when he bottomed all of his 8 LMSU once running them at over reference if he would ever remove his HPF again.
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post #409 of 589
6/11/12 at 2:54pm
Maybe he is using too much power. That's how I look at it. Why spend $1,000 on a super driver just to cut it's balls off? Using a HPF is a compromise, imo. But ... to each their own.
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post #410 of 589
6/11/12 at 2:56pm
Curious, what are you using to model? My copy of Winspeakerz only shows 26mm @ 20hz and just shy of 30mm @ 10hz. That is with 4400w in 4cf. Have not had a problem bottoming with my LMS U's with any of the difficult content. Gains are only about 1/3 of the way up though.
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post #411 of 589
6/11/12 at 3:03pm
Thread Starter 
I dunno about you guys but you can call me a high pass filter using sissy any day of the week versus the alternative. tongue.gif

ce81f3a7.jpg

787e999d.jpg
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post #412 of 589
6/11/12 at 3:08pm
Unibox.

These are my T/S specs for the current LMS-U

Fs: 20hz
Re: 3.78ohm
Qms: 7.8
Qes: .34
Sd: 1194.6cm2
Vas: 240 liters
Xmax: 38mm
Le: 2.8mH

And with those specs, 4,400w of power in a 4cuft enclosure....

TCLMS-54002010overxmax.gif
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post #413 of 589
6/11/12 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

I dunno about you guys but you can call me a high pass filter using sissy any day of the week versus the alternative. tongue.gif
ce81f3a7.jpg
787e999d.jpg

And how much power were you using, again? wink.gif

For a $1,000 driver, this thing sure is fragile. That or we have quite a lot of lead foots around here. tongue.gif This driver produces so little distortion that one doesn't know anything bad is happening until it gives up the ghost.
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post #414 of 589
6/11/12 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Maybe he is using too much power. That's how I look at it. Why spend $1,000 on a super driver just to cut it's balls off? Using a HPF is a compromise, imo. But ... to each their own.

Your not cutting off it's balls, your just adding a protective cup.

The HPF is small compromise but a huge protective measure that it doesn't make sense to not use one for a $1,000 driver.
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post #415 of 589
6/11/12 at 3:10pm
When talking about power as well a lot of the numbers that are being thrown around are RMS but peak power can sometimes be double that. It only takes less than a second to destroy these subs with one gigantic burst of power.
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post #416 of 589
6/11/12 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Your not cutting off it's balls, your just adding a protective cup.
The HPF is small compromise but a huge protective measure that it doesn't make sense to not use one for a $1,000 driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

When talking about power as well a lot of the numbers that are being thrown around are RMS but peak power can sometimes be double that. It only takes less than a second to destroy these subs with one gigantic burst of power.

True, true.

However....One thing my sims show is just...power. It doesn't make a difference whether it's peak or constant. You can see that the Xmax is exceeded with +4kw into this driver.

Hey. It's cool if you guys want to use the HPF. People use em' like bandaids around here but there are those that I get PM's from all the time on how to reach down low or lower than 10hz so I'm just trying to speak for everyone.
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post #417 of 589
6/11/12 at 3:19pm
Quote:
how to reach down low or lower than 10hz so I'm just trying to speak for everyone.

MOAR SUBS!!!!! answered.
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post #418 of 589
6/11/12 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Quote:
how to reach down low or lower than 10hz so I'm just trying to speak for everyone.
MOAR SUBS!!!!! answered.

You're g-damn'd right! That's what I'm talking about. smile.gif
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post #419 of 589
6/11/12 at 3:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

And how much power were you using, again? wink.gif.

Apparently too much. lol
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post #420 of 589
6/11/12 at 3:26pm
Well.... maybe. Just take a look at my sim up above.

This LMS-U has way too much motor. Lol! Excursion control happens at under 2.5cuft internal space. Yeesh...crazy driver.
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