Will a good sub improve sound?

A good sub will definitely improve the sound, there is no question about that. Two subs will do even better. Depending on how good the deal is on the Velodyne, it might be worth going for, but they definitely will not be hitting 15 hz with and real strength. I don't regard the DD10's as a terrific performance value, but they really would be very good if you can't have large subs. Adding a sub shouldn't improve the clarity of the mid-range very dramatically, but they will definitely do bass better than most full-range speakers. I would advise you to get a sub, but only settle for the Velodynes if you are getting a truly fantastic deal or if you can not handle a larger sub.

For just music I perfer my 4-way towers hands down to handle everything but for Movies its good to have a subwoofer in the mix

Adding a subwoofer though give the receiver the ability to use more of the power on the mids and highs so it in turns cleans up the sounds of the mids and highs alitte

New the DD-10+ goes for $2,000, Lets say you can get it for $1,000. Even for a $1,000 there are much better subwoofers out there. Rythmik comes to mind.

I think you are headed in the right direction. Seeking out quality bass through capable subs and knowing that multiples are the way to go. Now you need to get busy on educating yourself on the software and, a mic system to measure. If you know about the software even better. Read Welti/devantier and Geddes white paper, its facinating understanding what you can as this is some deep reading, i get just enough to get by, Lol.

I have not heard a speaker that has ever convinced me that music is better without a sub. From my experience a GOOD sub will improve the experience. Now if you have really good speakers and add in a $300 sub...then there may be little to no benefit musically. But if you are talking a $800+ sub, musically you should see a benefit, especially if you play bass heavy music loud. It takes some of the strain off the speakers and allows them to play the material they are more suited to play(mids and highs)

+1

Sage advice.

I don't disdain Velodyne like most here do, but even I concede that for $1000 you can probably do better than the DD 10+.

The high end Velos sound extremely good with music. Very tight and accurate.

For movies in a mid size room though, I'd want at least a DD-12. A 10 inch sub is just too small to do justice to movies...

Well said and I agree.

What country is that?

+1. I'd be willing to bet at least one of those ID vendors would ship to your location, provided you pay for freight, of course (just start calling them and work it out). I'd take a subwoofer from any of the main ID vendors over that Velodyne; you can get a lot of subwoofer for $1000.


I guess you've never heard the Vandersteen Model 7's or Salk SoundScapes. With that said, you're right, though: when done right (properly placed and EQ'd), a subwoofer can take a musical experience to the next level. The problem is this: many people just throw the subwoofer into the room where they think it looks "pretty" instead of finding the best location for it sound wise. Then they complain that it didn't improve the system... Proper implementation takes times, but when done right it's totally worth it.

^ It's not "bad," just grossly overpriced and doesn't offer much output and extension for the money. Do you have a local JL Audio dealer?

Personally, I would take the SB13 Plus 9 times out of 10 over the DD 10 Plus. The only time I would choose the DD 10 instead is if size was a problem, because the SB13 is not small by any measure.

It might be worth contacting Epik, HSU, Outlaw Audio and Rythmik and see if they have any way of shipping to Russia. Maybe they don't, but it can't hurt to ask.

Another company to check is XTZ. They are a European ID company that makes excellent products. I own their 99 W10.16 subwoofer myself, and it's a very nice unit. They may already have a distribution network that can ship to Russia.

You keep saying the EQ is better on the Velodyne, but is it really that much better? Will you even need it? And if so, you can buy a Behringer 1124p for $100 that is far superior to the EQ on the Velodyne. Also, the F112 is not a large subwoofer; their entire model is a lot of output in a small enclosure.

Here are the CEA-2010 standard measurements for the F110; I'd say that's a lot of performance for a 10" sub.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...ments-analysis

This thread may also be helpful to you:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1048800

be careful when boosting using the PEQ, you may be in a null.....

FYI, JL is coming out with an "E" series sub that might meet your needs, but might not be available until summer or fall. Something to consider.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1387232

Who said anything about boosting? PEQ is generally used to cut, as boosting will grossly limit headroom, especially if it's down real low. Cutting limits headroom too, though, but not as much. Boosting can be utilized if not in a null, though; you just better be sure you have the amp/driver headroom.

What about a pair of Velodyne Optimum 10s or 12s?

Duals will rock, but your room will determine how well down near 20Hz and below. If you find the ideal placement for them, I'd imagine they'll perform very well. I'd still just get one F112, though, as it performs better at 20Hz.

I always prefer a closed box for music application.
If you want to build you can consider this project http://www.subwoofer-building.com/

Is it possible to try out the Velodyne in your home and if it does not meet your requirements return it?

you're right I haven't. I bet they do sound amazing. But I bet a really nice sub could even compliment those speakers, no?

I don't know. They both use dual 12's, and both are available with PEQ to make them active woofers. With that said, the best placement in a person's room for great imaging and a wide and deep sound stage usually isn't the best place for in-room bass response, so perhaps using a separate subwoofer would be beneficial. With something like those speakers, I'd go sans-sub first, using the built in PEQ to tune things. If I wasn't happy then I'd go with something extremely well built (a sealed design), such as a custom build from Funk Audio (Funkywaves) using the TC Sounds LMS5400 18" driver. After all, if you're spending $45,000 on the Vandersteen Model 7's you might as well purchase the best subwoofers money can buy as well.

As for the first question, yes a good sub improves the sound. It takes the strain from reproducing bass frequencies off the mains, adds headroom for these frequencies, and provides more placement options to integrate with your room better. Additionally, VLF/ULF response can help lock in imaging (I don't remember the technical term/reasons), and help provide a more spacious "feel" to the speakers. That is all if the good sub is properly integrated to the system/room of course.

As for a Velo DD10+, I thought it sounded nice, but for the price better options exist. I'm not trying to diminish the sub when I say that, but just convey that I wasn't as "wowed" by it as I was by others. The JL Fathom for one, and several ID brands. My question is why spend that much money on just the sub? What if you trim the sub budget (via the SVS Russia dealer, or the lower JL or Velodyne models) and invest in room treatments and/or a new AVR with a decent room correction suite such as Audyssey or ARC? I always thought it was a bit strange that people put so much emphasis on eq within a sub vs in an AVR or pre-pro. A good room eq and/or well placed room treatments and bass traps will definitely improve the sound.


As for two JL F110's, I'd verify if they have any HPF's in them that alter the normal roolloff of a sealed sub (the larger F112 and F113 do for example). If so, then 2 F110's may not exceed the 20-30hz response of a DD10+. Just something to check on if that is the route you plan of going.

I've heard both the Soundscapes and the Model 7's, both are very nice, as are the Revel Salon2's. The only speakers though that made me think a sub is not needed, and would inspire me to rearrange a room for placement, are the PTE Acoustics Statements. Granted they are stupidly expensive ($52k/pr), and bloody huge. They deliver crazy dynamics and bass extension though.

In regards to your first question, yes, a high quality mono subwoofer will outperform the in-room bass response of a cheap pair of speakers; it'll also outperform the bass response of an expensive pair of speakers. This is because utilizing a subwoofer allows you to place it where the bass response sounds and measures the best in your room, which usually is not the best spot to place the speakers themselves. So crossing over to a subwoofer allows you to place both independently in the locations where they individually sound the best. Does that make sense?

As for question # 2, dual (or three or four) subs helps smooth out the effects of room modes and evens out the frequency response. However, depending on how far apart they are and where they are placed you'll need to individually adjust phase, delay and maybe even their crossover (which means adding something like the Behringer DCX2496 into the mix). Multiple quality subs is better than one quality sub in almost every case provided you take the time to integrate them correctly. With that said, if your room or personal tastes/preference don't call for it, don't do it; just use one. It's really up to you.

Well said and I will add that one good sub will still be better than two mediocre subs especially if music and low end extension are priorities.