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Would you still buy an XBOX 720 if you can't play used games? - Page 5

post #121 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Halo, forza, fable, gears, left 4 dead, mass effect (for a time), most XBLA games, every kinect game. It might not tickle your pickle but the exclusive list is pretty solid...

Some good games there (along with some absolute trash) but none of them ever "tickled my pickle." Maybe I'm not playing them correctly? Do you have to enter a secret code or sit really close to the screen for that?
post #122 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

For me, it all comes down to genre. Shooters, WRPGs, and shmups I play on 360. Adventure games, fighting games, and Japanese action games I play on PS3.

And what's wrong with you that you were disappointed by GT5 and MGS4?! Two of the best games of the generation!

GT5 would be incredible in a world without forza. But that interface is just so terrible, the game was just I dunno...boring.

And don't get me started on MGS4. What a ridiculous game. Someone needs to rein Kojima in and edit his hour long cinematics to something that remotely makes sense. That game is so alienating to anyone who isn't a card carrying member of the MGS fan club. The game itself was ok, but everything around it from the self referential gimmicks like the part where it turned to a PS1 game, a **** version of tekken at the end, the button mashing hallway, the insane opening cinematic, the egg cooking fixation. I'm sorry but if I don't have to touch my controller for an hour while some old dude grunts in response to just crazy things being said about god knows what, the game just isn't for me. I just don't know what people see in it.
post #123 of 169
In this case, I don’t think we can blame MS. I suspect developers have put a considerable amount of pressure on MS and Sony insisting they find a solution to recoup lost revenue going to 3rd parties because of the used game market.

Without developers we have no video games, no Xbox, and no PS3. Therefore, it is important to keep the developers happy. Is this new model is what they want, it’s going to happen.

At some point in the not too distant future, this will all be a moot point when physical media disappears. The question is when it will happen: in 2-3 years out, 4-5 years, or longer? When it does, make certain you dump that Gamestop stock.
post #124 of 169
Doubtful. Maybe 15 or 20 years from now we'll have a console that is direct delivery only--but I still doubt that. Even in this hypothetical reality, there will still certainly be ways to sell content through third parties. Microsoft isn't going to be able to muscle Amazon, WalMart and all these other interests out of the market. Retailers could easily offer lower cost games that are redeemed via codes. Remember, Microsoft still needs a brick and mortar presence to deliver a large majority of its consoles.
post #125 of 169
Why would one think that physical media will not disappear really soon? Like I said on the previous page, Steam already does it, and yes you can still buy the disc at retail places, but you still have to install the game on your HDD and then get activated through Steam. Amazon has had a significant push these last few months on digital download, so retailers are already starting to change. Blizzard already has done this with Starcraft 2, in that you have to be logged in to Battlenet in order to play even the campaign.

The biggest push on PC is that there is rampant piracy and that is why they do this. However, if the model works and the games are even more popular now then they ever were, why would the console market do anything different. If you refuse to buy a Xbox 720 or whatever because of the DRM issues, people will still have the option to play the same games on the Xbox 360 for years after the release of the next Xbox. No one is forcing people to watch their favorate movies on blu-ray, you can still get it on DVD or streaming, but if you insist on the best sound and picture quality, then you have no choice. The next Xbox will likely offer the same advantages. You will have to buy the game new or download it if you really want to experience the advanages of the newer hardware or stick with last generation.
post #126 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by deveng View Post

Why would one think that physical media will not disappear really soon?...

Because people have been speading this putrid fud around for years now and it STILL hasn't happened.

I could care less if you prefer physical media or not, but the part that bothers me is that those that are "against" it act like;

1) It would be a wonderful thing to not have a choice in the matter.

2) That physical media is some antiquated way of doing things that only second-class citizens would dare to prefer.

3) That if they just keep repeating the same fud over and over and over again, then it will happen. Of course, they're correct...but only if you justify "really soon" by comparing it to the Mesozoic Era.
post #127 of 169
Regardless of every other factor, one thing is a guarantee that physical media isn't disappearing anytime soon. Millions of Americans just don't have broadband internet. A large percentage of those don't even have the option of subscribing to broadband internet. I only have to drive about a mile to reach somewhere that doesn't have the option of things like cable service and such. Huge portions of the North Country between the St. Lawrence River, the Adirondack Mountains, and Lake Champlain and the Vermont border are without cable or DSL service, huge dark areas for cell phone coverage, etc. I'm sure that's something much of rural American has in common. And a quick search indicates that isn't changing very quick these days for Americans.

And the last time I saw any stats, I believe from Neilson or the ESA a year or two ago, a very large percentage of current generation consoles have never even been taken online.

Heck, most people I know that own something like a Xbox 360 don't even have it connected to the internet. A company like Microsoft isn't so driven towards killing physical game distribution that they're going to eliminate something like 25% or more of their customer base.

At worst, we easily have a couple of generations left of physical game distrubition ahead of us. I envision digital distribution this upcoming generation on something like the 720 and PS4 (Assuming Nintendo remains about a generation behind the times) being on par with physical game distribution (Same day digital releases, everything gets a digital release, competitive pricing, etc.) compared to the secondary but growing role it has played this generation.

Then, I see at least one more generation where digital takes precedence with physical game distribution playing a role not unlike what digital does right now. And we won't be entering an all digital future (If ever) until economically priced broadband service is available to over 90% of homes in 1st world areas like the United States, Canada, Japan, Western Europe, etc. The infrastructure isn't anywhere close to that at this time (Or likely even able to support the millions of console gamers that are connected to the internet suddenly downloading all their games).

Edit - Here's an example from the spring of 2010.

http://www.hackingnetflix.com/2010/0...streaming.html

54% of Wii's
78% of PS3's
73% of Xbox 360's

And it's quite possible with the drops in prices over the last couple of years that these amounts have actually dropped or stayed stagnant over the past two years, rather than grown.
post #128 of 169
Thread Starter 
IGN recently posted the poll results of what is the most important feature you want in the next gen consoles and the #1 answer was the ability to play used games.
post #129 of 169
IGN is exactly a bastion of journalistic integrity, but yeah, I don't have a hard time believing the number one thing people want is games that cost less.
post #130 of 169
Thread Starter 
So now that we know that the PS4 will allow used games, does this change your answer? I would imagine Microsoft would shoot themselves in the foot if they didn't allow used games.
post #131 of 169
that's the thing. we don't know if the PS4 will allow used games. if you look at the latest statements, it's yet to be determined. Yoshida backtracked on his comments. the Euro manager said it hasn't been determined.
post #132 of 169
At the end of the day, not being able to buy used games isn't going to make me jump to PC's. I like consoles, I like the ease of buying a game and just putting it in my system, instead of having to worry about upgrading parts of my PC. Especially when you consider the fact that PC's aren't the cheapest to get in to and maintain.
post #133 of 169
Not being able to buy used games would have zero impact on my decision of which consoles to buy. I'm one of those people who always prefers new, shiny items still in their shrinkwrap and I don't mind paying full price for a quality game that will have replay value or waiting a few months for a reasonable price drop on games that interest me less.

Looking forward, I still see myself sticking with one or two consoles next generation. What and when I buy will be dependent primarily on the availability of quality games; all the ancillary stuff - apps, media hub capabilities and social networking (blech!) mean nothing to me. So whoever offers me good gaming experiences will get my money.

This generation Xbox 360 has gotten the lion's share of my gaming time so it is still the platform I am most interested in and the one I will probably look most closely at first unless they really botch up the design.

PC gaming doesn't really interest me as I still find it relatively high maintenance and cost prohibitive in terms of necessary periodic software and hardware upgrades. Something like the Steambox (or whatever its called) might be interesting as a secondary or even tertiary gaming device assuming it is relatively affordable and low maintenance.
post #134 of 169
Since I continue to enjoy my consoles and purchase games for them years after their commercial viability has ended, I'm very unlikely to buy an Xbox 720 if it has very restrictive DRM limiting how a legitimate disc can be utilized. It's not even so much the question of used games but what could happen to my own library of purchases bought new during the life of the console after Microsoft concludes support.

Thankfully at least it appears the Playstation 4 will be a viable choice if Microsoft goes down that route. Would suck to lose a few exclusives like the Forza series, but hopefully the situation where the vast majority of the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 library is shared between both consoles continues. And with Sony going a more conventional route where hardware is concerned, there shouldn't be that long learning curve developers faced 6 years ago where it took a few years before projects started to routinely be on par with the Xbox 360 versions.

I hope Microsoft goes a more conventional route. The Xbox and the Xbox 360 have been my primary consoles the past two generations. So I hope they don't do something to lose me as a customer or shift my habits more towards playing software on the competition and perhaps waiting until the tail end of the console generation to bother with the Microsoft exclusives.

I'm willing to put up with measures other than requiring a constant internet connection with things like XBLA purchases and PSN purchases (Although I'm not willing even to spend $5 if the game instantly will go poof the day servers are turned off when the console manufacturer concludes online support). But I draw the line past about $15 where I'm willing to accept significant restrictions on my purchases.

I'm not willing to accept not being able to control my own retail discs.
Edited by Leo_Ames - 3/6/13 at 8:37pm
post #135 of 169
There is no way MS will do this if Sony doesn't, so it wouldn't be a reason to not get the Xbox and get the PS4.
post #136 of 169
"I'm not willing to accept not being able to control my own retail discs."

Looking at the trends of the last generation, I'd say that this doesn't particularly matter. We've seen the retail disc shift from the complete game of the GCN/Xbox/PS2 era to a disc that only contains the core game with another quarter of the game being released after the fact. Looking forward, I would not be surprised at all if the retail disc is only half of the game, if that. Looking at titles as early as 2009's Battlefield Bad Company 2, the shipping multiplayer content was only 1/4 of what the total content ended up being. Shifting over to the PC, shipped Team Fortress 2 was maybe 10% of the content that the game contains now. It's important to note that that wasn't updated much on the consoles because of how restrictive the update systems ended up being on both systems.

Instead of looking at games as "Can I buy pre-owned discs?" why not look at titles more in the fashion of "Is the developer being fair and respectful of my purchase?". Again, look at DICE and Valve. DICE started with a system where they supported new sales and retention of old customers by providing new free content for a year after launch. My Bad Company 2 disc went back in to my 360 every quarter when a new content drop happened. DICE then went on to a system with Battlefield 3 where they wanted another $60 to keep playing the new stuff. That disc hasn't been back in my 360 since a month after launch. If I were a normal consumer I would have sold that disc off long ago.

Looking at Valve by comparison, everything they release is a 1.0 product. You get the 2.0, 3.0, 143.0 version free forever after. They respect your purchase and give you a reason to come back.

Can I play pre-owned discs? Who cares! How well is the developer going to take care of me as a consumer? That is what I care about. I have zero interest in Battlefield 4. DICE burned that loyalty on BF3. I love all four of the previous Dead Space games, but Dead Space 3 sits at the store unpurchased because Visceral crammed microtransactions into a space that they didn't belong. I don't know what Valve, Nintendo, or Bethesda are making next, but it doesn't matter. All three of them have my money without even telling me what the product is.
post #137 of 169
I do not buy used games so it does not matter to me if the next Xbox blocks used games.
post #138 of 169
I'd prefer the next Xbox block used games, but only if the PS4 did as well. We'd get better quality games if that were the case. I buy games on Amazon and pay a lower price for new than Gamestop sells used. Also, I've almost never traded in a used game because of the insulting prices Gamestop offers.
post #139 of 169
GameStop isn't the only place to sell and buy used games. Half.com cuts out the middle man, you get more and games are cheaper.
post #140 of 169
Thread Starter 
"I'd prefer the next Xbox block used games, but only if the PS4 did as well. We'd get better quality games if that were the case. I buy games on Amazon and pay a lower price for new than Gamestop sells used. Also, I've almost never traded in a used game because of the insulting prices Gamestop offers."

How would we get better quality games exactly? Game developers would not make any more money than they currently do now. In fact, one could argue that they would make less in some situations. Here are a few reasons why:

1. Some gamers will be less inclined to purchase a new game if they know that they cannot re-sell it if it has little replay value or if they don't like it.
2. Many gamers, myself included, will rent a game first and then decide whether or not they want to purchase it. I know that we can try the demo but it's not the same.
3. Millions of gamers will simply refuse to purchase the next XBOX or Playstation because of the inability to play used games, myself included, so obviously those are millions of lost potential customers.
post #141 of 169
Whichever one allows used games to e used is the one we will go with. Heck, it doesn't even have to be used. If my nephew comes over and brings his games, does that mean we can't play them? or will we have to constantly swap back and forth with profiles? My son has his friends come over and they bring their games. Again, the hassle of adding a profile to my son's Xbox. and we are talking about 10-12 year olds. Not every kid knows his profile info to recover. Not every parent is going to give that info out to someone else would you? I won't.

We have purchased games because a friend has brought over their copy to play and we liked it. Not sure how many copies of Skyrim have been sold because of our copy. After loaning it out for people to try. They end up purchasing their own copy.

I lump used games in with borrowed/loaned and ones used on related Xboxes.

We bought one copy of Skylanders. My daughter uses it on her Xbox when my son is playing something else. When my son has his best friend over, he brings his Xbox and we set it up in my sons room. The same thing goes for a game we have multiple copies of and the friend doesn't. We let him use our other copy to play multiplayer on. Being tied to a copy of a game/console would be so cost prohibitive as to in my opinion, reducing potential sales substantially.

And as for no used games will somehow cause better games to occur, you are fooling yourself if you think that is going to happen. If anything, even more turds will appear. We will have to rely even more on reviews (which can be bought). So there is reduced downside for game makers
post #142 of 169
Thread Starter 
A game would be tied to a profile. You could still buy/borrow a used disc but you would have to purchase a license to play it.
post #143 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubdenno View Post

Whichever one allows used games to e used is the one we will go with.
It's going to be both or neither. They know it would be suicide for one console to go down this road alone, so that won't be a problem.
post #144 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepyourgameup View Post

A game would be tied to a profile. You could still buy/borrow a used disc but you would have to purchase a license to play it.

Which if true, will be a sad day.

I agree that it will either be both, or neither.
post #145 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"I'm not willing to accept not being able to control my own retail discs."

Looking at the trends of the last generation, I'd say that this doesn't particularly matter. We've seen the retail disc shift from the complete game of the GCN/Xbox/PS2 era to a disc that only contains the core game with another quarter of the game being released after the fact.

While the situation has certainly started to shift this generation, the vast majority of the content on a disc is still as free as it ever was. Most of what is being stripped away to sell to you later is multiplayer oriented content whose loss down the road is of no concern since it's of limited utility (or downright useless if there is no LAN mode or local multiplayer mode available) when the multiplayer servers go away.

And content being kept locked on disc with unlock codes or after paying an access fee online to unlock if bought used are miscellaneous things, online multiplayer access, etc. We''ve thankfully not quite reached the nirvana that people like the Codemasters CEO dreams about at night where you purchase a Formula One game with access to one car and a handful of tracks and pay additional fees online to gain access to the other 10 or so teams and the remaining dozen + tracks.

I can deal with things like locking online multiplayer modes. To start with that specific example, online multiplayer is of little concern anyways with the era I'm worried about after manufacturer support has ended. Plus the prime time to get into online multiplayer is when a game is new and I'd always buy new anyways rather than save $5 with a used copy (Used purchases only enter the equation for me with older releases). I still complained though since it was common sense that if this was accepted under the guise of forcing used game purchasers to subsidize their server usage that they were going to expand this model in other ways (even though an Xbox Live subscription is supposed to already do that and the server allotment for that copy of the game if they were really asking their customer's to ante up was paid for the day it was bought in the first place leaving little justification to force used game purchasers to pay an access fee to play the same disc online). I was told I was nuts when I claimed this in the past but I think the evidence certainly proves it at this point that they had no intentions of limiting unlock codes to online multiplayer.

And in many instances of DLC heavy games, I've been able to be patience and pick up the entire package, usually with the DLC right on disc, for less than just paying for the DLC would've cost me. So DLC heavy releases like Forza games, Bethesda published releases, Dirt 3, I believe the Mass Effect games, and so on have alternate avenues available for the gamer keeping an eye towards the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

"I'm not willing to accept not being able to control my own retail discs."

Can I play pre-owned discs? Who cares!

Considering that I have a popular marketing slogan from the heyday of Atari right in my signature (Which many days each month I can safely answer yes to), I certainly care. I'm still buying games for and playing most every console that was ever even a minor player in the North American marketplace since the late 1970's.

When I buy a console, it's not just with an eye towards today and tomorrow but is also something meant to enjoy years down the road after the vast majority of customers like yourself have moved on to newer platforms. So such limitations not only pose a major roadblock in expanding my game library down the road, it leads to a huge problem for the viability of the library that I did purchase new when the console was on store shelves around the globe.

How would a Xbox 720 purchased on the used marketplace when the inevitable failure of my original console happens years after manufacturer support has ended be able to identify that my library of purchases aren't just used discs that I'm not supposed to be allowed to play (At least without paying an access fee)?

I'm not sure I can stay away entirely in such a future, but my presence will be very limited compared to today. Thankfully with my gaming habits as they are I'll never be lacking for a great new (To me) game to play even if I never buy another new console.
Edited by Leo_Ames - 3/7/13 at 12:28pm
post #146 of 169
Quote:
Leo_Ames

And in many instances of DLC heavy games, I've been able to be patience and pick up the entire package, usually with the DLC right on disc, for less than just paying for the DLC would've cost me. So DLC heavy releases like Forza games, Bethesda published releases, Dirt 3, I believe the Mass Effect games, and so on have alternate avenues available.

And what about those of us with a lack of impusle control? biggrin.gif
post #147 of 169
iT's a bit off topic but related; what I'd like to see next gen is no sequels within the gen that aren't true sequels. I think they should butild a good engine for a franchise, sell it to you once, then keep selling downloadable add ons after that. I'm tired of the cash grab of releasing a new disc every couple of years just to grab a new batch of $60 from everyone. Something like COD or Gears or all those yearly sports games, even if they still charged the same total for all the content I'd still rather they just sell me 1 disc and then keep updating it or adding to it.
post #148 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

that's the thing. we don't know if the PS4 will allow used games. if you look at the latest statements, it's yet to be determined. Yoshida backtracked on his comments. the Euro manager said it hasn't been determined.

Instead of letting people's imagination fill in the blanks, you can google and post the info.
Quote:
Speaking at a roundtable session with the press attended by Ars Technica, Shuhei Yoshida stated that "when you purchase the disc-based games for PS4, that should work on any hardware." When asked whether games would require online registration, Yoshida noted that that decision was up to the publisher. When asked if Sony, as a publisher, would require games to be registered online, Yoshida said, "we are not talking about that plan."

While Yoshida's statement leaves open the possibility that individual publishers can still block used games at will, it's just as likely he was simply leaving the door open for the kind of "Online Pass" purchase systems that already routinely limit certain online game functions in used copies of games. So while there's still a bit of wiggle room in Sony's public comments, we'd also caution against reading to much into what Yoshida did (or didn't) say.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/02/sonys-yoshida-playstation-4-wont-block-used-games/

Sounds like online passes again, which we have now.
post #149 of 169
instead of leaving an incomplete picture, it's better to show the recent statements showing that Sony has not yet determined their strategy:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/02/sony-uk-exec-ps4-used-game-question-isnt-clarified-just-yet/

We thought Sony was out of the woods on this one. We really did. After months of frequent rumors and a patent filing pointing to the possibility of used game-blocking technology on the PlayStation 4, Sony's head of worldwide studios Sheuhei Yoshida seemed to finally put the matter to rest by telling interviewers that used games would be playable on the system.

Now, new statements from another Sony executive have thrown Yoshida's supposed assurances into question. When NowGamer asked PlayStation UK Managing Director Fergal Gara to confirm reports of Yoshida's earlier "used games are OK" statements, his answer was a bit less than reassuring for potential PS4 buyers.

"Well, first of all, we haven't stated that second-hand games... we haven’t made a statement on the second-hand games question," Gara said. "The answer to the pre-owned question isn’t clarified just yet and we’re working through that and we’ll announce our position in more detail as and when we can."


http://kotaku.com/5986055/sony-wed-like-a-straight-answer-about-this-used-games-stuff

It's a simple question: "Can the PlayStation 4 play used games?" After nearly a year of rumors, speculation and mysterious patents indicating that Sony could limit the play of pre-owned titles on its next-generation console we're finally getting answers—answers that leave us with more questions.

Speaking to Eurogamer's Tom Bramwell following last night's console "reveal", Sony Worldwide Studios head Shuhei Yoshida gave what seems like a concrete answer: "So, used games can play on PS4. How is that?" As Bramwell said, I think that's fine, but the roundabout path Yoshida took to get to that answer is rather puzzling. After being asked point-blank if the PlayStation 4 would block used games, Yoshida replied "Do you want us to do that?" He slides around the subject like an enigmatic mystic trying to pawn off a Mogwai, giving that seemingly definitive answer an air of uncertainty.

A Sony spokesperson speaking to Game Informer following the event gave a similarly cryptic, superficially positive answer.

"We are just now announcing the basic vision and strategy of PS4 and will have more information to share regarding used games later this year. But PlayStation has a long history of keeping its gamers happy and we won't make decisions that damage our relationship with them."

The fact that this spokesperson could not give a simple "yes" to the question indicates that issue is far from settled.

Perhaps the problem here is the question. "Can the PlayStation 4 play used games?" Yes, it can. Now what we need to know is "How does the PlayStation 4 play used games?"

Last March Kotaku reported on information from multiple sources that the PlayStation 4 would implement anti-used game technology. The most reliable of these sources suggested this technology would not block the use of used games altogether, instead letting them be played on a limited basis before requiring some sort of activation fee. Games would be linked to a specific PlayStation Network account, requiring registration before play. It's all rumor, of course, but it's definitely the sort of convoluted system that would allow for these ambiguously confirmative responses.

The only thing that's clear right now is that the issue of used games on the PlayStation 3 isn't one to be addressed by a simple yes-or-no answer. Perhaps we'll know more when Sony gets around to showing us the console we'll be somehow playing used games in.


many others have caught on to this vague, evasive wording by Yoshida:

http://techland.time.com/2013/02/21/will-the-playstation-4-play-used-games-maybe-maybe-not/

Sony’s answer, concludes Eurogamer, is that the PS4 will play used games (the article’s subtitled “PlayStation 4 will not block used games”). But reading what Yoshida actually said, I’d say the answer’s still clear as mud.

“So if someone buys a PlayStation 4 game … you’re not going to stop them reselling it?” asks Eurogamer, to which Yoshida doesn’t immediately respond, eventually saying: “So, used games can play on PS4. How is that?”

Mission accomplished? Not so fast. Remember when you asked your elementary school teacher “Can I go to the bathroom?” and she/he answered “I don’t know, can you?” Silly semantics, I know, but when you’re parsing potentially game-changing corporate directives, they mean everything.

It’s possible Yoshida meant “will” play, but without clarification, who knows? Technically he’s saying “can” here, which formally means “is capable of,” not “will without restrictions” (even “will” can be employed as synonymous with “can” — headache yet?). For example, the PS3 is technically capable of playing PlayStation 2 games (with a software emulator, and yes, I’m discounting the original launch models, which had dedicated PS2 chips), so it’s accurate to say “The PS3 can play PS2 games.” But it would be inaccurate to claim the PS3 actually does play PS2 games.

Will the PS4 play used games, no gotchas? All or just some? Will digitally downloaded games be resalable somehow? The Eurogamer chitchat doesn’t bring us any closer to an answer. If Sony wants us to know at this point, it needs to say so using non-evasive language. Barring that, I think it’s safe to assume the question’s either still up in the air at Sony HQ, or it’s already been decided, and not in the secondary market’s favor. If Sony’s decision involves locking down used content as originally surmised, I wouldn’t expect the company to say much at all, for the time being, in hopes of staving off the looming backlash.
post #150 of 169
i buy most my xbox games online wouldnt affect me since most games hardly even much trade in value.
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