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When wiil HBO Go actually get Dolby plus - Page 2

post #31 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

How would be "backward compatible" if it does not have the same "core" bitstream as DD? How would a old receiver be capable to decode it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


No, the process is called conversion. It's not computationally difficult. And if they choose to decode internally and output as PCM or analog, they do not have to support the conversion option. That is only necessary for legacy AVR support.

The converted DD output is compatible.

Sorry to resurrect this old thread. I'm a novice trying to understand the backward compatibility issue with DD+.

My question is: does it mean ANY old DD receiver can convert the newer DD+ stream into DD? If not, how do I know which is capable when I'm shopping for one? And, if only a newer device can convert DD+ into DD, why doesn't the manufacturer simply decode DD+? confused.gifconfused.gifconfused.gif
post #32 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciomako View Post


Sorry to resurrect this old thread. I'm a novice trying to understand the backward compatibility issue with DD+.

My question is: does it mean ANY old DD receiver can convert the newer DD+ stream into DD? If not, how do I know which is capable when I'm shopping for one? And, if only a newer device can convert DD+ into DD, why doesn't the manufacturer simply decode DD+? confused.gifconfused.gifconfused.gif


If you have an old receiver that is not capable of DD plus encoding, it will convert it to standard DD. The same goes for loss less audio formats on Blu-Ray discs such as DTS MA and True HD.



Ian
Edited by mailiang - 4/2/13 at 8:50pm
post #33 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

If you have an old receiver that does not have DD plus encoding, it will convert it to standard DD.

Ian

Thanks, Ian.

How does it work? How can products in the past understand how to convert a newer format? It sounds like magic to me. (e.g. An MS Word from 1990's won't be able to read/convert the newer docx format.)
post #34 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciomako View Post

Thanks, Ian.

How does it work? How can products in the past understand how to convert a newer format? It sounds like magic to me. (e.g. An MS Word from 1990's won't be able to read/convert the newer docx format.)


Standard DD is the foundation for all lossy and lossless formats. Any DD encoding device will work, since the difference is the extension which adds more bandwidth and up to 7.1 audio channels for better sound quality.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/home-theater/dolby-digital-plus.html



Ian
Edited by mailiang - 4/2/13 at 9:04pm
post #35 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

If you have an old receiver that is not capable of DD plus encoding, it will convert it to standard DD. The same goes for loss less audio formats on Blu-Ray discs such as DTS MA and True HD.

You're joking, right? My old Onkyo receiver was HDMI switching and could decode basic DD 5.1 and basic DTS, but it most certainly could not decode DD+, TrueHD, DTS HD HR or DTS HD MA. This wasn't a terrible problem because everything that I had which could receive those formats (BD players and my PS3, acting as a BD player) could also decode and output them as multichannel LPCM.

This was just fine and dandy until Netflix's DD+ 5.1 sound on the Roku. Unlike the BD players and PS3, the Roku cannot process DD+ or basic DD 5.1 for that matter, but merely passes them through to the downstream HDMI audio sink (or through S/PDIF in the case of basic DD 5.1 on Rokus with optical outs). Even older AVRs can decode DD 5.1 but when the Roku bitstreamed DD+ to my old AVR it just output static. I've read many, many accounts from other people who've had the same experience. I'd been considering upgrading my AVR for a couple of years and that was what finally got me to do it.

DD+ is supposedly converted to basic DD via a simple and computationally lightweight process, but that would be proprietary Dolby tech which I assume that Roku avoids the cost of licensing (you won't find Dolby mentioned in any of their documentation or marketing literature).

Believe me--you're misinterpreting that Dolby marketing info you linked to.
post #36 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

You're joking, right? My old Onkyo receiver was HDMI switching and could decode basic DD 5.1 and basic DTS, but it most certainly could not decode DD+, TrueHD, DTS HD HR or DTS HD MA. This wasn't a terrible problem because everything that I had which could receive those formats (BD players and my PS3, acting as a BD player) could also decode and output them as multichannel LPCM.

This was just fine and dandy until Netflix's DD+ 5.1 sound on the Roku. Unlike the BD players and PS3, the Roku cannot process DD+ or basic DD 5.1 for that matter, but merely passes them through to the downstream HDMI audio sink (or through S/PDIF in the case of basic DD 5.1 on Rokus with optical outs). Even older AVRs can decode DD 5.1 but when the Roku bitstreamed DD+ to my old AVR it just output static. I've read many, many accounts from other people who've had the same experience. I'd been considering upgrading my AVR for a couple of years and that was what finally got me to do it.

DD+ is supposedly converted to basic DD via a simple and computationally lightweight process, but that would be proprietary Dolby tech which I assume that Roku avoids the cost of licensing (you won't find Dolby mentioned in any of their documentation or marketing literature).

Believe me--you're misinterpreting that Dolby marketing info you linked to.

Hi Michael,

I'm really really confused about this backward compatibility issue. Roger Dressler said a year ago on this thread DD+ would be automatically converted (transcoded?) into DD for backward compatible playback. I don't understand which piece of equipment is doing the conversion in the chain.
post #37 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciomako View Post

If not, how do I know which is capable when I'm shopping for one?

Looking at some stuff online that's not as easy as I thought; not all AVR sales literature bothers to mention DD+ or DTS HD HR. I think that it's safe to assume that if a product's description says that it decodes TrueHD it can decode DD+ and if it says that it can decode DTS HD MA then it can decode DTS HD HR. If in doubt, go to the manufacturer's web site and try to find the manual and search that for DD+.
Quote:
And, if only a newer device can convert DD+ into DD, why doesn't the manufacturer simply decode DD+? confused.gifconfused.gifconfused.gif

Many devices give you a choice of whether you want to bitstream the advanced formats, decode them into multichannel LPCM for output over HDMI or convert them into basic Dolby or basic DTS to be bitstreamed (necessary if you want to output over S/PDIF). All of my BD players give those choices.
post #38 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciomako View Post

I'm really really confused about this backward compatibility issue. Roger Dressler said a year ago on this thread DD+ would be automatically converted (transcoded?) into DD for backward compatible playback. I don't understand which piece of equipment is doing the conversion in the chain.

If it's done, it would be by the piece of equipment which gets the DD+ in the first place from a disc or from a media stream, not by some legacy AVR without DD+ decoding. As I said in the post above, my BD players all can take DD+ and bitstream it over HDMI, decode it into multichannel LPCM and output that over HDMI or convert it into basic DD to bitstream over HDMI or S/PDIF (if you need S/PDIF output that's the only option since you can't bitstream DD+ over it or send more than 2 channel PCM).

In the context of this thread's title, it doesn't seem as if HBO Go is using DD+, just basic DD.
post #39 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

If you have an old receiver that is not capable of DD plus encoding, it will convert it to standard DD. The same goes for loss less audio formats on Blu-Ray discs such as DTS MA and True HD.
Yes, a DD+ decoder chip can convert DD+ to a DD bitstream whenever it needs to output 5.1 audio over S/PDIF.

Blu-ray discs with TrueHD (lossless) do not have to make any such conversions, because a companion DD track always accompanies the lossless track, expressly to ensure compatibility with the same old audio DSPs that were used in DVD (which predates DD+).

DTS-HD MA carries its own form of backward compatible audio from the DVD era, called DTS CA (Coherent Acoustics) or plain DTS for short. Again, no conversion needed for legacy S/PDIF support. The player just spits it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Standard DD is the foundation for all lossy and lossless formats.
If you mean foundation as in being the first 5.1 codec ever invented, that is true.

Just to clarify, DD is a traveling companion in the current Blu-ray version of TrueHD. It is not used in the process of decoding TrueHD, however.
post #40 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

You're joking, right? My old Onkyo receiver was HDMI switching and could decode basic DD 5.1 and basic DTS, but it most certainly could not decode DD+, TrueHD, DTS HD HR or DTS HD MA. This wasn't a terrible problem because everything that I had which could receive those formats (BD players and my PS3, acting as a BD player) could also decode and output them as multichannel LPCM.

This was just fine and dandy until Netflix's DD+ 5.1 sound on the Roku. Unlike the BD players and PS3, the Roku cannot process DD+ or basic DD 5.1 for that matter, but merely passes them through to the downstream HDMI audio sink (or through S/PDIF in the case of basic DD 5.1 on Rokus with optical outs). Even older AVRs can decode DD 5.1 but when the Roku bitstreamed DD+ to my old AVR it just output static. I've read many, many accounts from other people who've had the same experience. I'd been considering upgrading my AVR for a couple of years and that was what finally got me to do it.

DD+ is supposedly converted to basic DD via a simple and computationally lightweight process, but that would be proprietary Dolby tech which I assume that Roku avoids the cost of licensing (you won't find Dolby mentioned in any of their documentation or marketing literature).

Believe me--you're misinterpreting that Dolby marketing info you linked to.


I believe you were misreading my posts. I never claimed that it will decode DD plus, True HD or DTS. If you have a older DD receiver, and you play a DD+ source, you are correct, it won't output standard DD. But if you are playing a BD with lossless audio, using an older receiver with just an optical output, it will usually play standard DD or DTS. (But at a higher bit rate then found with streaming, DVD's and broadcasts due to BD's having more bandwidth).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Yes, a DD+ decoder chip can convert DD+ to a DD bitstream whenever it needs to output 5.1 audio over S/PDIF.

Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Blu-ray discs with TrueHD (lossless) do not have to make any such conversions, because a companion DD track always accompanies the lossless track, expressly to ensure compatibility with the same old audio DSPs that were used in DVD (which predates DD+).

DTS-HD MA carries its own form of backward compatible audio from the DVD era, called DTS CA (Coherent Acoustics) or plain DTS for short. Again, no conversion needed for legacy S/PDIF support. The player just spits it out.
If you mean foundation as in being the first 5.1 codec ever invented, that is true.

Just to clarify, DD is a traveling companion in the current Blu-ray version of TrueHD. It is not used in the process of decoding TrueHD, however.


You're right, I was thinking in terms of DTS, where as DTS MA is an extension of the original codec. Thanks for clarifying that.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 4/3/13 at 3:22pm
post #41 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

I believe you were misreading my posts. I never claimed that it will decode DD plus, True HD or DTS. If you have an older receiver, and you play a DD+ source, it will output standard DD.

Unless that older receiver has DD+ decoding I guarantee you that it will not. That's what I understood you to say and that's what I'm disputing. An old receiver with only DD decoding capability cannot receive DD+, interpret it as DD and output coherent sound.
post #42 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Unless that older receiver has DD+ decoding I guarantee you that it will not. That's what I understood you to say and that's what I'm disputing. An old receiver with only DD decoding capability cannot receive DD+, interpret it as DD and output coherent sound.

Sorry Mike, but I never experienced that issue with my old Pioneer AVR which I upgraded to a lossless HDMI version just over 2 years ago. It always played DD even with plus, and never advertised that it could encode that format. I edited my post. Does yours play DD and DTS lossey with BD's that have DTS MA or True HD audio tracks?



Ian
Edited by mailiang - 4/3/13 at 3:24pm
post #43 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Sorry Mike, but I never experienced that issue with my old Pioneer AVR which I upgraded to a lossless HDMI version just over 2 years ago. Does yours play DD and DTS lossey with BD's that have DTS MA or True HD audio tracks?

I upgraded to an AVR with advanced format decoding (DD+, TrueHD, DTS HD HR and DTS HD MA) back in August 2011, shortly after the Roku 2 hit the market and I bought a Roku 2 XS. The Roku 2 XS' inability to do anything with Netflix's DD+ 5.1 except pass it through and my old AVR's inability to decode DD+ was what prompted the upgrade (from a 5 y/o HDMI switching Onkyo HTiB AVR to an Onkyo TX-NR609). When I sent the old AVR DD+ 5.1 from Netflix it tried to play it as basic DD 5.1 and output static noise.

The old AVR's inability to process the advanced formats hadn't been any big issue for me in the past since everything that I had which could play media with the advanced sound formats (from BDs or network VOD streams) could internally decode those formats and output them over HDMI as multichannel LPCM, which my AVR could play. They could all also convert those formats into basic DD or basic DTS for output over S/PDIF, but I wasn't using that.
post #44 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I upgraded to an AVR with advanced format decoding (DD+, TrueHD, DTS HD HR and DTS HD MA) back in August 2011, shortly after the Roku 2 hit the market and I bought a Roku 2 XS. The Roku 2 XS' inability to do anything with Netflix's DD+ 5.1 except pass it through and my old AVR's inability to decode DD+ was what prompted the upgrade (from a 5 y/o HDMI switching Onkyo HTiB AVR to an Onkyo TX-NR609). When I sent the old AVR DD+ 5.1 from Netflix it tried to play it as basic DD 5.1 and output static noise.

The old AVR's inability to process the advanced formats hadn't been any big issue for me in the past since everything that I had which could play media with the advanced sound formats (from BDs or network VOD streams) could internally decode those formats and output them over HDMI as multichannel LPCM, which my AVR could play. They could all also convert those formats into basic DD or basic DTS for output over S/PDIF, but I wasn't using that.

DTS was smart for using their core on all formats. Now every DTS device is compatible regardless of the source.


Ian
post #45 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

DTS was smart for using their core on all formats. Now every DTS device is compatible regardless of the source.

I could be wrong, since I never had occasion to try it, but I don't believe that you can send DTS HD (HR or MA) to an AVR with a decoder for only basic DTS and expect it to play either. Something has to extract the core and send that by itself (which makes it more or less than same situation as the advanced Dolby formats). Also you can only transmit it over HDMI 1.3 or higher; probably most AVRs with that spec could decode it.
post #46 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I could be wrong, since I never had occasion to try it, but I don't believe that you can send DTS HD (HR or MA) to an AVR with a decoder for only basic DTS and expect it to play either. Something has to extract the core and send that by itself (which makes it more or less than same situation as the advanced Dolby formats). Also you can only transmit it over HDMI 1.3 or higher; probably most AVRs with that spec could decode it.

When I first had my BD player, I had it connected to my old AVR via the optical input. The BD DTS MA audio tracks would always output as plain DTS, which Roger eluted to as the backward compatible DTS CA. DTS often refers to it as the core.


Ian wink.gif
post #47 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Sorry Mike, but I never experienced that issue with my old Pioneer AVR which I upgraded to a lossless HDMI version just over 2 years ago. It always played DD even with plus, and never advertised that it could encode that format.
That's because, assuming you were connected via S/PDF, the old Pioneer never saw the DD+ stream. It cannot travel on S/PDIF.
post #48 of 94
Roger, I have my Sony S790 BD player connected to the Datasat processor. When I watch Netflix steaming I have the Sony decode the audio (which I assume is DD+) and send it via HDMI. I also have the Sony connected to the Datasat via Toslink which delivers DD 5.1 which the Datasat decodes. If my assumption is correct would this be a valid way of comparing DD and DD+?
post #49 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

When I first had my BD player, I had it connected to my old AVR via the optical input. The BD DTS MA audio tracks would always output as plain DTS, which Roger eluted to as the backward compatible DTS CA. DTS often refers to it as the core.

Exactly--the BD player was extracting the core and sending that over the optical S/PDIF connection.
post #50 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I upgraded to an AVR with advanced format decoding (DD+, TrueHD, DTS HD HR and DTS HD MA) back in August 2011, shortly after the Roku 2 hit the market and I bought a Roku 2 XS. The Roku 2 XS' inability to do anything with Netflix's DD+ 5.1 except pass it through and my old AVR's inability to decode DD+ was what prompted the upgrade (from a 5 y/o HDMI switching Onkyo HTiB AVR to an Onkyo TX-NR609). When I sent the old AVR DD+ 5.1 from Netflix it tried to play it as basic DD 5.1 and output static noise.
The Roku may not have considered the EDID from the old AVR, which should have informed it that it was not DD+ capable. Other than killing the noise it would not have helped, though, as Roku has no internal Dolby decoding.
post #51 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

Roger, I have my Sony S790 BD player connected to the Datasat processor. When I watch Netflix steaming I have the Sony decode the audio (which I assume is DD+) and send it via HDMI. I also have the Sony connected to the Datasat via Toslink which delivers DD 5.1 which the Datasat decodes. If my assumption is correct would this be a valid way of comparing DD and DD+?
No. The DD signal you are getting is created by the DD+ processor. It is not an original DD stream, if that is what you wanted to compare.
post #52 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

DTS was smart for using their core on all formats. Now every DTS device is compatible regardless of the source.
DTS has a codec called DTS Express. It does not use a DTS CA core. Also, per the ETSI reference specification for DTS-HD MA, it can support complete lossless encoding/decoding without the core. It saves some bitrate to do so, though, at the expense of added decoder complexity.
post #53 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The Roku may not have considered the EDID from the old AVR, which should have informed it that it was not DD+ capable. Other than killing the noise it would not have helped, though, as Roku has no internal Dolby decoding.

I suggested at one point that they check the EDID but for whatever reason they declined to handle it that way. (At first I had to turn it on for every Netflix title w/5.1 sound before playing it--even if I stopped it without leaving the player and resumed it--and it was driving me up the wall). Roku's solution was to make the selection of DD+ 5.1 sound "sticky". If you select it for one title it will be selected for every title featuring it until you turn it off for a title which features it. (The same is true for closed-captions/subtitles). I'm assuming that the presumption is that if you try it and it fails you will switch to stereo, the initial default. Whatever--it works for me biggrin.gif.
post #54 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

DTS has a codec called DTS Express. It does not use a DTS CA core. Also, per the ETSI reference specification for DTS-HD MA, it can support complete lossless encoding/decoding without the core. It saves some bitrate to do so, though, at the expense of added decoder complexity.

Doesn't the Blu-ray spec require that a DTS HD MA primary track have the core?
post #55 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Doesn't the Blu-ray spec require that a DTS HD MA primary track have the core?
Yes and no. It requires that a DTS CA track be on the disc. It does not require that the lossless decoder use it. It could do the same as Dolby, where TrueHD is decoded without using the DD companion.
post #56 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

That's because, assuming you were connected via S/PDF, the old Pioneer never saw the DD+ stream. It cannot travel on S/PDIF.


The only time I believed I was receiving DD+ from my old AVR was when I first started using Vudu. I can only assume now that they were streaming in DD at that time and not plus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

DTS has a codec called DTS Express. It does not use a DTS CA core. Also, per the ETSI reference specification for DTS-HD MA, it can support complete lossless encoding/decoding without the core. It saves some bitrate to do so, though, at the expense of added decoder complexity.


I assume Express is a fairly new codec and is used for streaming apps, so there is rarely much use for the core? BTW, I just realized they don't use DTS ES on DVD's anymore. biggrin.gif



Ian
Edited by mailiang - 4/3/13 at 9:40pm
post #57 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

The only time I believed I was receiving DD+ from my old AVR was when I first started using Vudu. I can only assume now that they were streaming in DD at that time and not plus.
Why do you assume that? Isn't is possible that your Vudu device converted the DD+ to DD as it passed through? I have not seen any evidence that Vudu ever used DD.
Quote:
I assume Express is a fairly new codec and is used for streaming apps, so there is rarely much use for the core?
It's not a new codec at its roots, but has been updated over the years and is part of the Blu-ray spec for secondary audio. It uses a lower bitrate than the DTS "core" so no, there's no core in it. That is why I mentioned it in response to your generalization about all their formats using the core.
Quote:
BTW, I just realized they don't use DTS ES on DVD's anymore. biggrin.gif
Surround EX is over. Now it's 7.1 discrete.
Edited by Roger Dressler - 4/3/13 at 10:26pm
post #58 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Why do you assume that? Isn't is possible that your Vudu device converted the DD+ to DD as it passed through? I have not seen any evidence that Vudu ever used DD.

See this and this and this (a 2012 release, no less, so they're still using it); didn't take much digging to find them. It's not uncommon (at least in the past) for HD and HDX to be in DD+ while SD is in DD 5.1 or DD Stereo. I saw one odd title where HDX was the only one in DD while HD and SD were DD+--I tested the 2 minute preview and it was true biggrin.gif. Can't remember what it was.

EDIT: Poking around more through VUDU's catalog I find that plain old DD is pretty common, though not so much in releases of the last year or two. There are few real oddities--Batman Begins, for instance, is only available in DD Stereo at every quality level.
post #59 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Why do you assume that? Isn't is possible that your Vudu device converted the DD+ to DD as it passed through? I have not seen any evidence that Vudu ever used DD.



My device is a BD player which passes DD+ through the HDMI output. As you recall, my old AVR only had an optical input. I only watched a couple of Vudu titles at that time and I figured it may have been before they were using plus excursively for mufti channel content.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

It's not a new codec at its roots, but has been updated over the years and is part of the Blu-ray spec for secondary audio. It uses a lower bitrate than the DTS "core" so no, there's no core in it. That is why I mentioned it in response to your generalization about all their formats using the core.



I just assumed that it was primarily a streaming codec, based on DTS's description:




Quote:
Originally Posted by the DTS web site View Post

DTS Express is a high performance discrete audio codec designed for low bit rate applications, such as streaming and downloaded content.




Ian
Edited by mailiang - 4/4/13 at 8:29pm
post #60 of 94
Ian, there is a misplaced quote marker in your post. Might want to edit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

My device is a BD player which passes DD+ through the HDMI output. As you recall, my old AVR only had an optical input. I only watched a couple of Vudu titles at that time and I figured it may have been before they were using plus excursively for mufti channel content.
Your BD player would not pass DD+ to an AVR that does not understand DD+, as that would result in either silence or odd noises. It would convert it to DD first.
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