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The end of PQ?

post #1 of 31
2/13/12 at 12:20am
Thread Starter 
There is a lot of talk in this forum about display technologies which will improve PQ. PQ improvement is seen as an endless quest for the ultimate Holy Grail Perfection. But blowing wind of changes bring a smell which may signal a new trend which we call EPiQ = The End of PQ. The EPiQ trend emerges due to the fundamental fact of PQ being now good enough (meaning shockingly stunning) for the mass consumer crowd. The standard Pepsi Light does not see a damn of PQ difference and she does not care about it. Her attention is directed to more size and thin lines, just like in fashion. Her J12P companion is in addition attracted by the tons of features and apps with the labels covering the whole display area.

Take as an example the new E series by Samsung. The main points in its promotion are the dual-core processor and control by voice and camera plus tons of apps including weight control and Angry Birds. Samsung tells indirectly "the display is good enough and there will be no need to replace it" by introducing Evolution Kit, a modular design by which the hardware can be upgraded. This recognizes the fact that the hardware evolution will continue to be fast and the display will remain static.

For those who are fixated on the PQ this is not a good news but reality has to be faced. The EPiQ trend is enhanced by the end of content-side PQ. The content PQ is not only perceived good enough but there is in fact the trend to lowering it to the Internet standards.

In view of such trends, how about the brave predictions about the 4K and OLED coming to rule the world? Prospects for them are rather weak since mass consumers will be indifferent. What remains then is a niche status but this is also questionable in view of there are no economic heydays on the horizon and there is no money to keep unprofitable niches for long. In other areas, cf. audio, the niche markets are served by specialized companies but in the display area there seems to be no prospect for niche manufacturers due to the high investment required.

Ironically though, we may get at some point 4K and OLED, if and then, the cost of making them will not matter anymore comparing to the hardware. But they will be used to watch you- and other xxx- Tubes with heavy PQ improvement like those Photoshoped pics in the magazines today.
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post #2 of 31
2/13/12 at 1:28am
While OLED is capable of bringing the "end of PQ", mfgs will cheapen it so much to bring it mainstream that I doubt it will really happen (e.g. pentile, white OLED's with color filters). Then they'll slowly improve it until the next new tech is introduced.
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post #3 of 31
2/13/12 at 11:20am
I actually agree mostly with irkuck here. I've been beating the drum for months that we are at practical limits of what a display even can do, let alone what people are looking for -- which is a lot less than theoretical maximums.

We have crossed thresholds of contrast (not all of them yet, but most), color reproduction, motion resolution that once represented the "things that were wrong" with flat panels. Yes, we can't buy them all in one yet, but that seems to be coming soon enough (or might exist from the Sharp Elite with a firmware upgrade).

I personally believe we will get both 4K and at least the choice of OLED before attempts to improve the visual experience more or less come to an end, but as I've already said, I believe neither is going to be especially better -- more like marginally better.

The enthusiast crowd that likes numbers and statistics is going to be disappointed here, but TVs are really approaching a state where cars are. You can squeeze out a few more hp, a few more MPG, and you add features, but what you can't do is radically alter the nature of cars that drive on the worlds highways and freeways.

One of the mistakes the enthusiast crowd makes is the assumption people are looking for better picture quality in any kind of significant numbers. They aren't. And, really, getting people to the store to replace a perfectly functioning TV for some ethereal 50% improvement in picture quality (which is probably hard to buy anyway), already doesn't happen much.

There are improvements to the visual experience that can still be developed and sold at mainstream prices -- and we'll see them to a significant extent I believe. But when a company like Samsung -- which is targeted a global market share of 20+% -- throws down the gauntlet like this, it is am important statement.

People who are amazingly skeptical of this notion really ought to look at how little cars change from year to year or even audio components. Surround-sound receivers, for example, are barely sold on sound at all and even less so on improvements vs. last year's model.
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post #4 of 31
2/13/12 at 11:24am
And yet showrooms across the nation will still display everything in torch mode with lurid color balance. Perfect PQ will have arrived, and few will have seen it.
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post #5 of 31
2/13/12 at 11:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I actually agree mostly with irkuck here. I've been beating the drum for months that we are at practical limits of what a display even can do, let alone what people are looking for -- which is a lot less than theoretical maximums.

I am in fact not convinced we are at the limits of PQ. Ultimate PQ would be a display which one misleds for a real window pane. We are far from this and I do not know if it is possible. But for mass consumers what is now is already a magic so the EPiQ is here. In turn we start facing a race in the back of the TV: dual core processors now, quad processors next, and doubling forever???.
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post #6 of 31
2/13/12 at 11:58am
We're not close to having good enough PQ because I can still see a big difference between PQ on my plasma and PQ I see through a window. We have a long way to go.
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post #7 of 31
2/13/12 at 12:29pm
HDTV/Films are not trying to recreate reality, you will never have an image that looks as if you're looking out a window with the current specs.

We need far wider gamut displays, higher resolution, and higher bit-depths before that could happen.



The triangle in the middle is the current HD spec. The full image is the range of colours we can see.

Laservue displays are considerably better, but there's no content to support them. (actually, they would be pretty great for editing on a PC...)

Notice that there's still a wide range of colour we can perceive that is outside their gamut.
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post #8 of 31
2/13/12 at 1:49pm
well depending on your useage, we already are at the epiq.

unless you watch computer generated content, gaming or br, broadcast tv has already arbitrarily limited the pq available to you. we are stuck with heavily compressed signals, burdened with subchannels and at resolution rates less than 1080i or 720p. there is no incentive for them to invest in providing a higher quality signal as the average consumer isn't demanding it or is willing to pay for better pq.

unless and until a significantly better compression formula than mpeg 4, things will not improve as more and more networks make use of subchannels and the providers focus on quantity of channels rather than quality of channels.

so yeah i want oled and 4k but i know i will only be able to see their true capabilities on very limited forms of media.
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post #9 of 31
2/13/12 at 4:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

I am in fact not convinced we are at the limits of PQ. Ultimate PQ would be a display which one misleds for a real window pane. We are far from this and I do not know if it is possible. But for mass consumers what is now is already a magic so the EPiQ is here. In turn we start facing a race in the back of the TV: dual core processors now, quad processors next, and doubling forever???.

We have reference-level color reproduction already.
We have full 1080-line motion resolution already.
We have ANSI contrast that matches (or exceeds) your beloved limits of the human visual system already.

It's hard (impossible at this moment) to get all of those on one display. But it's likely that will change soon.

People like to find non-picture-quality attributes that they define as picture quality to prove that somehow we have some gigantic row to hoe and it stretches out to the horizon. But the reality is, most attributes of picture quality are quantifiable and most are at/near practical limits.

That's why I am pro things you hate, like augmented picture quality using higher-resolution displays that comes closer to replicating the way reality does look, even with questionable sources.
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post #10 of 31
2/13/12 at 8:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

We have reference-level color reproduction already.

Only as it is currently measured. (typically at 100% saturation and 100/75% luminance)



Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

We have full 1080-line motion resolution already.

These tests are not indicative of real-world image quality, and were basically thought up as a marketing device for Plasma displays.

OLED is still a noticeable improvement here, and will hopefully "solve" the motion handling problem, though some reports from CES suggested that CLED was even better? (probably because it's a scanning display rather than sample & hold)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

We have ANSI contrast that matches (or exceeds) your beloved limits of the human visual system already.

Yes and no. On a 4x4 ANSI contrast grid, we have displays that can exceed 10,000:1. But with real-world content, haloing can be visible in some scenes (not necessarily bothersome with films, but it exists) and it only gets that high if the content fits nicely on the grid of the backlight array. Again, this is something that OLED is going to dramatically improve upon and can hopefully solve. (but I have yet to see an OLED display that has the advertised "perfect" black level in a dark room)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It's hard (impossible at this moment) to get all of those on one display. But it's likely that will change soon.

Hopefully, but the first generation of large OLED displays already appear to have some issues, and that's before they're even out. I think it's a bit premature to assume that we have achieved perfect reproduction of BT.709 imagery just yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

That's why I am pro things you hate, like augmented picture quality using higher-resolution displays that comes closer to replicating the way reality does look, even with questionable sources.

I agree. Now I'm even more confused as to why irkuck is so opposed to things like 4K. That may not even be enough. People at CES this year were only saying that Sharp's 8K display was the first one where you don't see the pixel structure and it starts looking "real."

As I said before though, we're never going to get that "looking through a window" effect from the current HD spec. We need to move to 4K/8K with a wide gamut, higher bit-depths, and as much as I dislike the idea, HDR displays.
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post #11 of 31
2/13/12 at 8:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

I am in fact not convinced we are at the limits of PQ. Ultimate PQ would be a display which one misleds for a real window pane. We are far from this and I do not know if it is possible. But for mass consumers what is now is already a magic so the EPiQ is here. In turn we start facing a race in the back of the TV: dual core processors now, quad processors next, and doubling forever???.

The EPiQ era started when a dumb, backwards little company in Texas decided to sue Toshiba over SED technology.
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post #12 of 31
2/13/12 at 10:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

As I said before though, we're never going to get that "looking through a window" effect from the current HD spec. We need to move to 4K/8K with a wide gamut, higher bit-depths, and as much as I dislike the idea, HDR displays.

And a high enough frame rate, including in the source. And maybe some type of 3D that is like real life.
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post #13 of 31
2/13/12 at 10:40pm
Chron, I actually agree with pretty much everything in your post. I think the sum total of all those things will, in fact, be valuable and that it will take a few generations of OLED to get where it can be... It's all very marginal, but it will all sum up to more than marginal.

Perhaps my general sense is that we're near the end of picture quality, rather than at it. And I'm very skeptical that any of the remaining improvements are going to change the trajectory of a maturing industry that can't sell continuous improvement to the masses. To that extent, I'm apparently in tune with irkuck... and more importantly Samsung.

One thing the TV industry is very confused by is that it's never been a seller of a short-replacement-cycle good. Things like the PC industry were born that way and have had to come to grips with people keeping computers longer. Eventually, the mobile-phone industry will come to grips with it as well. The TV industry goes through a once-every 20-40 year cycle where something comes along that gets everyone to buy new TVs, then it ends. This cycle was horrible in that it was largely without profit, to boot.

Manufacturers are desperately struggling to find ways to shorten the cycle, but they realize that getting people to toss out perfectly functional HDTVs is not really going to happen. That's why you see things like the "upgradeable" models, which are attempts to extract some extra margin out of a huge, but not-very-profitable business.
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post #14 of 31
2/13/12 at 11:09pm
Thread Starter 
Chrono is colorfully illustrating that, technically, we are far from EPiQ. The problem is however in consumer behavior. Consumers drive the EPiQ since PQ is not relevant for them anymore. What is much more important for consumers is convenient access to variety of content and thus free redtubes with lower PQ are successful and preferred. This becomes similar to the status in audio where highly compressed cheaper/convenient formats replaced better quality. But in audio there is high-end niche industry for those who want to pay for quality (perceivable or illusory). There is nothing similar in the video display due to the fact that panel manufacturing is concentrated in the hands of few. This leads to a monopoly/oligopoly situation and braking the progress. There is possibility that somebody invents new display tech with lower manufacturing threshold for the high-end market niche and this will change. Until then, EPiQ will rule.
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post #15 of 31
2/14/12 at 1:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

But in audio there is high-end niche industry for those who want to pay for quality (perceivable or illusory). There is nothing similar in the video display due to the fact that panel manufacturing is concentrated in the hands of few. This leads to a monopoly/oligopoly situation and braking the progress. There is possibility that somebody invents new display tech with lower manufacturing threshold for the high-end market niche and this will change. Until then, EPiQ will rule.

There is something similar in video. It's current very limited to the Sharp Elite models and to a much lesser (but existent) extent to things like the Sony HX929, the Panasonic VT and the Samsung line having top-end products.

You seem to have been impressed enough to invest accordingly in 2011.

I see no reason why that niche can't continue -- and perhaps even grow. If it doesn't, it will be consumer disinterest, not manufacturer disinterest.
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post #16 of 31
2/14/12 at 1:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

There is something similar in video. It's current very limited to the Sharp Elite models and to a much lesser (but existent) extent to things like the Sony HX929, the Panasonic VT and the Samsung line having top-end products. You seem to have been impressed enough to invest accordingly in 2011. I see no reason why that niche can't continue -- and perhaps even grow. If it doesn't, it will be consumer disinterest, not manufacturer disinterest.

No coincidence Sony, Sharp and Panasonice are bleeding so much? Samsung top-end are edge-lits and should not be counted (though I would like to see the 75" E8000 without the standard list of problems) . EPiQ combined with the companies bleeding could mean we are at the PQ eclipse. From those who bought the Sony HX9 and Elite there will become owners of priceless legendary vintage models of unparallel PQ, hehe. For the rest, the good enough PQ will remain. So hurry up people be4 its too late.
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post #17 of 31
2/14/12 at 2:00am
There is no guarantee that tv's will necessarily look better in the future, if automobile quality is any indicator, which I am pretty sure it isn't.

There are many leading automobiles which are much, much worse than ever before. Take the civic. It's a piece of garbage now. Find one from 10 years ago (not difficult to do), and you'll be stunned by the quality: it's ridiculous how refined they are. The latest versions are chintzy, plastic toys in comparison.

Most people view tv's as an appliance, so size and price are pretty much the two biggest factors. Aside from that, people will accept whatever technology is available when their old tv's no longer work. With 4K already present, it's pretty obvious tv's are going to look significantly better 5-10 years from now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I actually agree mostly with irkuck here. I've been beating the drum for months that we are at practical limits of what a display even can do, let alone what people are looking for -- which is a lot less than theoretical maximums.

We have crossed thresholds of contrast (not all of them yet, but most), color reproduction, motion resolution that once represented the "things that were wrong" with flat panels. Yes, we can't buy them all in one yet, but that seems to be coming soon enough (or might exist from the Sharp Elite with a firmware upgrade).

I personally believe we will get both 4K and at least the choice of OLED before attempts to improve the visual experience more or less come to an end, but as I've already said, I believe neither is going to be especially better -- more like marginally better.

The enthusiast crowd that likes numbers and statistics is going to be disappointed here, but TVs are really approaching a state where cars are. You can squeeze out a few more hp, a few more MPG, and you add features, but what you can't do is radically alter the nature of cars that drive on the worlds highways and freeways.

One of the mistakes the enthusiast crowd makes is the assumption people are looking for better picture quality in any kind of significant numbers. They aren't. And, really, getting people to the store to replace a perfectly functioning TV for some ethereal 50% improvement in picture quality (which is probably hard to buy anyway), already doesn't happen much.

There are improvements to the visual experience that can still be developed and sold at mainstream prices -- and we'll see them to a significant extent I believe. But when a company like Samsung -- which is targeted a global market share of 20+% -- throws down the gauntlet like this, it is am important statement.

People who are amazingly skeptical of this notion really ought to look at how little cars change from year to year or even audio components. Surround-sound receivers, for example, are barely sold on sound at all and even less so on improvements vs. last year's model.
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post #18 of 31
2/14/12 at 2:05am
The top end Sharp Elite, Sony (XBR), Panasonic VT and Samsung models are great for what they provide in PQ, but the "Average Joe" will not notice any significant difference in PQ compared to lesser models... they see the wall full of sets (all on torch mode) and pick "a good looking" one at a "reasonable cost" (ie. on sale) and race home with their purchase... and most never even bother to calibrate the set!

It may become more of a niche market than many of us wish to see happen... simply looking at manufacturer's horrific sales numbers and the consolidation of actual flat panel production facilities makes me hesitant to think that "niche" will have any ability to actually grow.

Maybe where we will see more impact of PQ will be in projectors, not flat panels, in the coming years.
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post #19 of 31
2/14/12 at 2:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTrauma View Post

and most never even bother to calibrate the set!

They should build in an accurate auto-calibration option into all TVs so people don't have to.
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post #20 of 31
2/14/12 at 3:02am
If we use hi-fi audio as an example, then it's certainly not a given that video reproduction will improve in the next decade.

Today's amplifiers and receivers are lightweight, feature-packed, mid-fi equipment that were designed with mass-production, low cost, and high-efficiency as their main criteria.

The sound of most reasonable amplifiers built in the 70s and 80s is far superior but nobody wants them because they dont have 9.1 channels and Ipod control.
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post #21 of 31
2/14/12 at 5:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scanspeak View Post

If we use hi-fi audio as an example, then it's certainly not a given that video reproduction will improve in the next decade.

Today's amplifiers and receivers are lightweight, feature-packed, mid-fi equipment that were designed with mass-production, low cost, and high-efficiency as their main criteria.
The sound of most reasonable amplifiers built in the 70s and 80s is far superior but nobody wants them because they dont have 9.1 channels and Ipod control.

Plus one of the main attractions advertised for those 9.1 AV receivers is superb Internet radio through which one can hear music from Ougadugu in quality amazing for 32kb/s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

They should build in an accurate auto-calibration option into all TVs so people don't have to.

That's not needed, factory settings are fine for 99,9%.
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post #22 of 31
2/14/12 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs; View Post

They should build in an accurate auto-calibration option into all TVs so people don't have to.

It was in the middle of the summer, it was very hot. The room was darkened and all doors/windows were closed. The guy was calibrating my TV for hours and he did a lot of sweating. When he left i offered him some ice cream, he deserved it

Dimitri
http://isf-calibratie.jimdo.com/imag...n-voorstellen/

Do you really want all those (D-)Nice guys out of work Joe
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post #23 of 31
2/14/12 at 1:19pm
i remember reading a report about a video in japan that was shot using multiple 4K cameras and then was displayed on an array of HD pro LCDs back then...
the size of it was so that the watcher would have it's FOV filled ,
and most test subjects reported dizziness and motion sickness because it was too real
but the movements of the camera started playing with the brain
if i remember correclty they attributed this solely to resolution factor

so don't tell me we are any close to PQ objective

resolution will need to be much much higher
HDR is a must ... if u can't simulate glare and flashes correctly ...
and as some pointed out, some road still has to be paved on the color gamut side also


but then, the average Joe doesn't want anything more than the "new" things
on the market, that would best of equal what his second neighbor just bought.

90%+ humans are not interested in anything other then themselves and doing
as little efforts as possible during their life so ...

display manufactuerer are only interested in 1 thing ... money
when all manufacturer will be selling 4th gen OLED and the prices will start to come down
and the profit margin will go down because of the concurrence,
then we will see average Joe getting his head fulled of the "new" concept bringing enchancement to what he's already getting

still ... the more we push into the display tech, the less improvements will be possible

right now, we shall be limited to 1080p hd format and possibilities for quite some time to come i believe ...


i don't care much about a 4K display with HDR setup if i only have 2-3 short documentarys and demos to use it for ..
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post #24 of 31
2/14/12 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTrauma View Post


Maybe where we will see more impact of PQ will be in projectors, not flat panels, in the coming years.


And where exactly do you want this improvement to come from on FPJ??

there is only so much that can be improved on the FPJ technologies we already have ...
the only option that could change everything is a full laser projector
with very efficient laser modules, so that heat is not an issue anymore

but then, if they do not invent a way to get full 2mil pixels all light up at once,
the laser will need to be a scanning type, and this will again limit its PQ possibilities ..

i think ( hey i might be very very wrong..as i don't know #$%#% about all this ok !! agahaha )
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post #25 of 31
2/14/12 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio/videoman View Post

There is no guarantee that tv's will necessarily look better in the future, if automobile quality is any indicator, which I am pretty sure it isn't.

In aggregate, today's cars are far and away the best cars ever built. It's not even remotely close. Between performance, fuel economy, features, safety -- it's just not close. The fact that Honda has turned the Civic into a piece of junk (which I have no knowledge of, but let's just say your're right) doesn't change the greater set of facts.

There's a difference between looking at one model and looking at the industry, but if we take your example, there are about 10 Kia and Hyundai models for sale these days. All 10 of them have build quality that would embarrass the models from 10 years ago. So they more than make up for whatever butchering Honda did to the Civic. (Even that Civic is probably superior on many dimensions, while apparently falling short of some that you and others have doubtless seen.)
Quote:


Most people view tv's as an appliance, so size and price are pretty much the two biggest factors. Aside from that, people will accept whatever technology is available when their old tv's no longer work. With 4K already present, it's pretty obvious tv's are going to look significantly better 5-10 years from now.

It's also pretty likely that every TV of even moderate size will support 4K in 5-10 years. It's weird that people are wasting time predicting otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTrauma View Post

The top end Sharp Elite, Sony (XBR), Panasonic VT and Samsung models are great for what they provide in PQ, but the "Average Joe" will not notice any significant difference in PQ compared to lesser models... they see the wall full of sets (all on torch mode) and pick "a good looking" one at a "reasonable cost" (ie. on sale) and race home with their purchase... and most never even bother to calibrate the set!

Yep, pretty much spot on.
Quote:


It may become more of a niche market than many of us wish to see happen... simply looking at manufacturer's horrific sales numbers and the consolidation of actual flat panel production facilities makes me hesitant to think that "niche" will have any ability to actually grow.

It's already a niche. If anything, I think the future of that niche is strong. It's extra profit without a ton of effort. Yes, sales need to be high enough to make the effort worthwhile, but I'm cautiously optimistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scanspeak View Post

If we use hi-fi audio as an example, then it's certainly not a given that video reproduction will improve in the next decade.

Today's amplifiers and receivers are lightweight, feature-packed, mid-fi equipment that were designed with mass-production, low cost, and high-efficiency as their main criteria.

The sound of most reasonable amplifiers built in the 70s and 80s is far superior but nobody wants them because they dont have 9.1 channels and Ipod control.

All true, but there is also the Krell-type stuff out there at the top-top end. That doesn't really exist in video -- yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

It was in the middle of the summer, it was very hot. The room was darkened and all doors/windows were closed. The guy was calibrating my TV for hours and he did a lot of sweating. When he left i offered him some ice cream, he deserved it

Do you really want all those (D-)Nice guys out of work Joe

It's actually embarrassing that $4000+ TVs require a visit from some guy who tours the country (even though I have great respect for the ISF guys and think they do great work). All those TVs should absolutely come calibrated out of the box for what you are paying.
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post #26 of 31
2/14/12 at 5:50pm
audio/videoman: wHAT ??
current vehicules are worse than older ones?
In what field of work related to automobiles you are dreaming during ur daytime mate?
New civic not good anymore? WTF? are you working for GM or what?

The new civics are 10 times better than the old econoboxes they replace,
not that the older gens weren't good..they were fantastic for their price point.

Almost all new cars would seriously shy all cars from the last 10years and older,
and even the economics.

Who would've thought that even Hyundai would be pulling on its share with
better and better design/technology ( ok they copied it elsewhere,.still china can't get it right 1 out of 100 ..so )

neway, i do not see what your "bad" comparison with the automobile industry was about compared to display industry ?? please explain your point

BTW: 10 years ago civic = 2001/2005 model = very good mechanics, some small problems but a VERY CHEASY interior quality
2006+ interior quality on civic has been drastically improved
i have yet to see a 2012, but it should be on par with last gen or better
then 96-00 civic had many small problems..but still many
interior quality was only ok ( ok for econobox, but ****** for any other standard )
92-95 civics didn't have many mechanical problems, but interior was the worse ever

so i really don't get your new civic cheazy plastic comment at all
sorry
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post #27 of 31
2/14/12 at 9:34pm
Uh, no. The civic and the corolla are both an abomination. The cost cutting ACROSS the line in every brand is truly horrific. The entire lexus line for that matter is an exercise in cost cutting of materials. Both Honda and Toyota are making cars so embarrassing I would never ever consider buying one of either.

This has taken place in bicycle manuf as well. The features and weight and engineering are superior. But then again, a "mid priced" bike has increased 3X or 4X in 15 years. I've been looking at specs and test riding bikes over that entire time.

Very few people realize or care how cost cutting in quality of materials has affected production. There is literally NO SUCH THING as a desk made out of wood these days. Everything is made of particle board.

And don't even get me started on customer service. If you can get someone on the line, it is almost certain you know 10X as much about the product as they do.

We will get higher res. tv's for sure, but the quality of materials is going to be drop for sure as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

In aggregate, today's cars are far and away the best cars ever built. It's not even remotely close. Between performance, fuel economy, features, safety -- it's just not close. The fact that Honda has turned the Civic into a piece of junk (which I have no knowledge of, but let's just say your're right) doesn't change the greater set of facts.

There's a difference between looking at one model and looking at the industry, but if we take your example, there are about 10 Kia and Hyundai models for sale these days. All 10 of them have build quality that would embarrass the models from 10 years ago. So they more than make up for whatever butchering Honda did to the Civic. (Even that Civic is probably superior on many dimensions, while apparently falling short of some that you and others have doubtless seen.)


It's also pretty likely that every TV of even moderate size will support 4K in 5-10 years. It's weird that people are wasting time predicting otherwise.



Yep, pretty much spot on.


It's already a niche. If anything, I think the future of that niche is strong. It's extra profit without a ton of effort. Yes, sales need to be high enough to make the effort worthwhile, but I'm cautiously optimistic.



All true, but there is also the Krell-type stuff out there at the top-top end. That doesn't really exist in video -- yet.



It's actually embarrassing that $4000+ TVs require a visit from some guy who tours the country (even though I have great respect for the ISF guys and think they do great work). All those TVs should absolutely come calibrated out of the box for what you are paying.
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post #28 of 31
2/14/12 at 11:01pm
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It's also pretty likely that every TV of even moderate size will support 4K in 5-10 years. It's weird that people are wasting time predicting otherwise.

Not me hehe. I am predicting that it could be so or even more since there might be 8K TVs in 10 ys but it will be totally irrelevant. Like every TV today supports Deep Color, so what?
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post #29 of 31
2/14/12 at 11:36pm
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Originally Posted by audio/videoman View Post

Uh, no. The civic and the corolla are both an abomination. The cost cutting ACROSS the line in every brand is truly horrific. The entire lexus line for that matter is an exercise in cost cutting of materials. Both Honda and Toyota are making cars so embarrassing I would never ever consider buying one of either.

This has taken place in bicycle manuf as well. The features and weight and engineering are superior. But then again, a "mid priced" bike has increased 3X or 4X in 15 years. I've been looking at specs and test riding bikes over that entire time.

Very few people realize or care how cost cutting in quality of materials has affected production. There is literally NO SUCH THING as a desk made out of wood these days. Everything is made of particle board.

And don't even get me started on customer service. If you can get someone on the line, it is almost certain you know 10X as much about the product as they do.

We will get higher res. tv's for sure, but the quality of materials is going to be drop for sure as well.

So, on the one hand, I agree with you: A lot of products are made like pure garbage these days. Whether it's desks or socks or food processors, I've experienced this...

But that said, it's just absurd to bring cars as a general example into the mix. Maybe the Civic and Corolla are using less good materials (I never remember Honda interiors being especially high end to be honest), but autos overall are simply at a level that they've never been at.
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post #30 of 31
2/15/12 at 6:50am
What ?? Look i dont wish to move off the topic too much with the cars discussion,
But you are very very wrong on the situation of honda.
I dont know every manuf as good, so i cant relate as much , but the current civic are 17000$ cad here and are 2 times better equiped standard as they were on the 01-05 gen.
Just look at engine efficiency of the cars from 2000 to now, damn even dodge caravans now have near 300hp engine with a better fuel economy than the last gen. And its a dodge product, not exactly the best engineering in the auomobile industry.

So neway still i agree with you that most consumer products are all pos cheap non lasting badly engineered crap.
But that is due to 2 factors
1- 90%of population wants it all at the lower cost possible
2- the owners ( actionnaires. ) wants it all/ more. ( money that is )

This applies to every consumer products unfortunately

My personal experience is that 80% of the cons products are garbage now, and usually do not perform as should and or last as should.
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