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HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 69

post #2041 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCaboNow View Post

Thank you for the response.

This would be for front projection. So the colormunki display looks to be $150 on amazon and then download the HCFR sw and good to go? Sorry, just digging in to this for the first time...

Yup!

Don't worry, it's also my first time calibrating a TV..
Lots of stuff to learn..

Be careful though, it's kinda addicting.. wink.gif
I'm kinda looking at a Lumagen Mini right now... Thank god that it's expensive, so I can't impulse buy it.. biggrin.gif
Or else my wife might start asking many questions.. rolleyes.gif

Offtopic:
I saw you are from Beaverton, Oregon?
I went to UO in Eugene...Go Ducks? Ahh.. That brings back memories.. tongue.gif
Edited by vlix - 6/12/13 at 10:20pm
post #2042 of 3446
thanks.Something easy could be more graph options and maybe report generation. 10.gif
post #2043 of 3446
Just wanted to post something for the members I see buying the colormunki smile or colormunki display to save a couple of bucks.

I had been tempted to do that also... I'm always tempted to save a little.

I had in the past bought a colornumki which was similar to Display2 to save money and that didn't work out so well.

Anyways,.. .what I wanted to say is I found a Display 3 or Display pro (I'm not sure what they call it actually) on Amazon in the used section for $150 and it was open box but like new.

This was a better solution for me than to buy the colormunki version.

-Brian
post #2044 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post

Just wanted to post something for the members I see buying the colormunki smile or colormunki display to save a couple of bucks.

I had been tempted to do that also... I'm always tempted to save a little.

I had in the past bought a colornumki which was similar to Display2 to save money and that didn't work out so well.

Anyways,.. .what I wanted to say is I found a Display 3 or Display pro (I'm not sure what they call it actually) on Amazon in the used section for $150 and it was open box but like new.

This was a better solution for me than to buy the colormunki version.

-Brian

The colormunki smile is like the IDisplay2 the colormunki Display is like the iD3 and works great.

I have a great calibration using the colormunki display and it blows away my iD2 which is garbage compared to it.

The colormunki display with the plasma or Led spectral loaded in HCFR works a treat and can be found for $130 - $150 brand new.
post #2045 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterLewis View Post

The colormunki smile is like the IDisplay2 the colormunki Display is like the iD3 and works great.

I have a great calibration using the colormunki display and it blows away my iD2 which is garbage compared to it.

The colormunki display with the plasma or Led spectral loaded in HCFR works a treat and can be found for $130 - $150 brand new.

I know I am late to the party on this, but trying to decide between and Ebay iD2 or the colormunki display new on amazon for $50ish more. Can you elaborate on the difference between the two in relation to working with HCFR?
post #2046 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterLewis View Post

The colormunki smile is like the IDisplay2 the colormunki Display is like the iD3 and works great.

I have a great calibration using the colormunki display and it blows away my iD2 which is garbage compared to it.

The colormunki display with the plasma or Led spectral loaded in HCFR works a treat and can be found for $130 - $150 brand new.

Are you talking about the spectral samples from this post, from this post or completely different ones? I'm talking about plasma.
post #2047 of 3446
The iD3 should be the better choice over the colormunki display. Why? The hardware might be comparable. However, X-Rite has different licensing conditions for different product lines. HCFR and ArgyllCMS seem to support both iD3 and colormunki display, by bypassing the X-Rite SDK. However, ChromaPure and Calman (to my best knowledge) only support the iD3, they don't support the colormunki, due to SDK license cost reasons. So by choosing the iD3 you get at least as good a hardware (maybe better), and you get better compatability with a broader range of calibration software. And the price seems to be not so far apart...
Edited by madshi - 6/13/13 at 3:29pm
post #2048 of 3446
Thread Starter 
The D3 is also much faster and can sync properly to plasma refresh rates (for those that want a little better precision for their plasma measurements). Using the D3 combined with ArgyllCMS I can take 4500 profiling measurements of my display in less than 2 hours. If you are interested in 3dLUT color correction for your HTPC (madVR) or hardware based (eeColor) this is a big benefit.
post #2049 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

The D3 is also much faster and can sync properly to plasma refresh rates (for those that want a little better precision for their plasma measurements). Using the D3 combined with ArgyllCMS I can take 4500 profiling measurements of my display in less than 2 hours. If you are interested in 3dLUT color correction for your HTPC (madVR) or hardware based (eeColor) this is a big benefit.

The Colormunki Display cost $105 less than the ID3 for basically the same quality (if you are doing a straight 2pt or 10pt greyscale/gamma and CMS calibration with HCFR).

Now if you are planning to get super geeky with Lut boxes and other new term mumbo jumbo,then by all means the iD3 makes more sense.smile.gif

Colormunki Display $145....

http://www.amazon.com/X-Rite-CMUNDIS-Xrite-ColorMunki-Display/dp/B0055MBQOM/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1371162744&sr=1-2&keywords=colormunki+display

I Display Pro 3 $249

http://www.amazon.com/X-Rite-EODIS3-i1Display-Pro/dp/B0055MBQOW/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1371162744&sr=1-5&keywords=colormunki+display

Let your wallet be the judge..biggrin.gif
post #2050 of 3446
That's weird. In germany the i1 Display Pro is available for 152 Euros. That's including 19% VAT. Normally for most electronics USA prices are converted 1:1 to Euro prices in Germany...

Edit: And the colormunki display costs 120 Euros here.
post #2051 of 3446
The i1 Display Pro cost US $300 in Indonesia...
ColorMunki Display cost US $230..

I bought the i1 Display Pro.. It's mainly for a peace of mind really...
IMHO, your display is only going to be as accurate as your meter.. It's the weakpoint...
You can have a fancy Lumagen Video Processor, a pro software like Calman/Chromapure/LightSpace + ControlCal etc2... Or maybe a top-of-the-line Display...
But if your meter is crap.. It will produce crap results...
Without a pro calibrator that have experience and have seen and remember reference pictures, you wouldn't even know that it's crap.. Unless it's "extreme" crap... biggrin.gif

So.. ColorMunki Display is a budget meter... I don't have a peace of mind with a budget stuff on my expensive display...
Oh, based on reviews, ColorMunki Display is NOT a crap meter, it's a very good meter, the same as an i1 Display Pro.. really...
But again, it's a budget meter.. Maybe it's produced with the same Quality Assurance as an i1DPro, maybe not.. Maybe the difference is only in the sticker, maybe not.. Who knows..
What I know is, usually a budget electronic will be from a batch of not so perfect product, but can still be used.. Instead of A grade, it's B grade..
They can't produce the color filters / lenses with the exact same spec every time.. They will have a margin of error..

Btw, I saw your Home Theater, it's awesome!!
Edited by vlix - 6/13/13 at 7:47pm
post #2052 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlix View Post

The i1 Display Pro cost US $300 in Indonesia...
ColorMunki Display cost US $230..

I bought the i1 Display Pro.. It's mainly for a peace of mind really...
IMHO, your display is only going to be as accurate as your meter.. It's the weakpoint...
You can have a fancy Lumagen Video Processor, a pro software like Calman/Chromapure/LightSpace + ControlCal etc2... Or maybe a top-of-the-line Display...
But if your meter is crap.. It will produce crap results...
Without a pro calibrator that have experience and have seen and remember reference pictures, you wouldn't even know that it's crap.. Unless it's "extreme" crap... biggrin.gif

So.. ColorMunki Display is a budget meter... I don't have a peace of mind with a budget stuff on my expensive display...
Oh, based on reviews, ColorMunki Display is NOT a crap meter, it's a very good meter, the same as an i1 Display Pro.. really...
But again, it's a budget meter.. Maybe it's produced with the same Quality Assurance as an i1DPro, maybe not.. Maybe the difference is only in the sticker, maybe not.. Who knows..
What I know is, usually a budget electronic will be from a batch of not so perfect product, but can still be used.. Instead of A grade, it's B grade..
They can't produce the color filters / lenses with the exact same spec every time.. They will have a margin of error..

Btw, I saw your Home Theater, it's awesome!!

Regarding the hardware they are both the exact same meter with different stickers. The ColorMunki has a slightly crippled firmware that causes a delay in starting the meter reading and that's all. If accuracy is the judging point, and you consider the ColorMunki a budget meter, so is the i1DP. They're both the exact same meter/hardware. I'll wait half a second for my readings and save the $$$. To each his own.
Edited by Jestered - 6/13/13 at 8:39pm
post #2053 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

I'll wait half a second for my readings and save the $$$.

The time delay is not the only disadvantage, though. You also lose compatability to ChromaPure and Calman by choosing the Colormunki. Well, I suppose that doesn't matter much, here in the HCFR thread. But I believe support for all major calibration software packages is a quite good argument for the i1display pro. That said, of course everybody needs to decide for himself whether the i1display pro is worth the added cost, especially because the cost difference seems to be quite large in the US.
post #2054 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

Regarding the hardware they are both the exact same meter with different stickers. The ColorMunki has a slightly crippled firmware that causes a delay in starting the meter reading and that's all. If accuracy is the judging point, and you consider the ColorMunki a budget meter, so is the i1DP. They're both the exact same meter/hardware. I'll wait half a second for my readings and save the $$$. To each his own.

My opinion to consider ColorMunki a budget meter is solely based on price.

Yes, you are right, to each his own smile.gif
In the end, it's about the results and what you want from the device.
You want to save money, don't mind slower reading, and don't need to use it with Calman or ChromaPure? ColorMunki Display is the right one for you.

For me, my main concern of choosing i1DPro is the above post.
And I'm using it for Plasma TVs, so it needs to sync the refresh rate for better performance.
Also, I'm using the iProfiler software instead of dispcalGUI with argyllCMS for calibrating my PC monitor.

Btw, you are quite certain that it's the exact same hardware.
How about the Quality Control? Have anybody test several batches of ColorMunki Display and i1 Display Pro?
If yes, and the results are the same accuracy, then by all means, ColorMunki Display is the perfect device for most people. biggrin.gif
post #2055 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

All the dE calculations are absolute using the fixed CIE points. The grayscale does not include luminance but everything else does. The saturation offsets need to know the luminance at 100% saturation because the x,y locations below 100% saturation depend on gamma (which means luminance) and this is calculated assuming gamma = 2.22. So if you have a display which does not have gamma=2.22 the saturation offsets will have a small error in them.

Does this means that, for colors, the free measures dE can't really be used for accurate reading? Because the luminance at 100% saturation will be different after we change the value.
I noticed that the free measures dE are very different than the saturation color sweep dE...

Also, how to change from RGB Levels to Luminace reading in the measurement tab? I want to see the Luminance at 25%, 50% & 100% saturation.. It only shows Luminance at 75% saturation.
I'm using REC 709 (75%) option.
post #2056 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlix View Post

Does this means that, for colors, the free measures dE can't really be used for accurate reading? Because the luminance at 100% saturation will be different after we change the value.
I noticed that the free measures dE are very different than the saturation color sweep dE...

If you free measure a 100% saturated color at the same luminance level you measured white at the dE will be correct. This works the same as the real-time update of dE in the primaries/secondaries window that you use for targeting.
Quote:
Also, how to change from RGB Levels to Luminace reading in the measurement tab? I want to see the Luminance at 25%, 50% & 100% saturation.. It only shows Luminance at 75% saturation.
I'm using REC 709 (75%) option.

Not exactly sure what you want here, when you do a saturation sweep the luminances are shown in % on the saturation-luminance tab.
post #2057 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterLewis View Post

The Colormunki Display cost $105 less than the ID3 for basically the same quality (if you are doing a straight 2pt or 10pt greyscale/gamma and CMS calibration with HCFR).

Now if you are planning to get super geeky with Lut boxes and other new term mumbo jumbo,then by all means the iD3 makes more sense.smile.gif

Colormunki Display $145....

http://www.amazon.com/X-Rite-CMUNDIS-Xrite-ColorMunki-Display/dp/B0055MBQOM/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1371162744&sr=1-2&keywords=colormunki+display

I Display Pro 3 $249

http://www.amazon.com/X-Rite-EODIS3-i1Display-Pro/dp/B0055MBQOW/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1371162744&sr=1-5&keywords=colormunki+display

Let your wallet be the judge..biggrin.gif


This is totally true. However... There was a recent "sale" that made the EIDOS3 $170 new. I missed that sale but then saw an open box EIDOS3 on Amazon for $157.24 shipped.

I'm very happy not the have the Colormunki which is the SAME thing with a few built in problems.

I had been through the whole process before. I had an old Colormunki which was identical to the Display2LT just with a couple of FW blocks that made it much harder to use.

I would wait for a good price on the fully capable device... but that's just me.

Edit -> Plus the i1 logo on the EIDOS3 matches the logo on my i1Pro and they look so happy togeather... biggrin.gif
post #2058 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlix View Post

How about the Quality Control? Have anybody test several batches of ColorMunki Display and i1 Display Pro?
I don't have bunches of meters to test, but the ColorMunki Display and i1 Display Pro I have, have very similar looking internal calibration curves, and they arrive at similar readings when measuring the same display. At the end of the day, it makes sense to set up a single production line for the HW since that (roughly) doubles the volume. X-Rite won't be making as much money on each ColorMunki Display, but they will be capturing sales that might otherwise go to a lower cost competitors product.
post #2059 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

If you free measure a 100% saturated color at the same luminance level you measured white at the dE will be correct. This works the same as the real-time update of dE in the primaries/secondaries window that you use for targeting.
Not exactly sure what you want here, when you do a saturation sweep the luminances are shown in % on the saturation-luminance tab.

Ok... I think I get it now...
My continuous color reading is different than the sweep because I'm using 75%A & 75%S color patches.
The continuous reading based on 100% white from the previous greyscale measurement.. while the color saturation sweep based on 75% white it asked during the sweep... Is that right?

Regarding RGB Levels and Luminance, I think pics will explain it better than I do: smile.gif




Only 75% shows Luminance% in the selected color tab, the rest shows RGB Levels...
post #2060 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlix View Post

Ok... I think I get it now...
My continuous color reading is different than the sweep because I'm using 75%A & 75%S color patches.
The continuous reading based on 100% white from the previous greyscale measurement.. while the color saturation sweep based on 75% white it asked during the sweep... Is that right?

Only 75% shows Luminance% in the selected color tab, the rest shows RGB Levels...

yes.

The targeting mode only knows about colors in your current color space selection (75% in this case) so you'll never see targeting mode switch to luminance/bullseye for saturations not in your selected color space.
post #2061 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post

I don't have bunches of meters to test, but the ColorMunki Display and i1 Display Pro I have, have very similar looking internal calibration curves, and they arrive at similar readings when measuring the same display. At the end of the day, it makes sense to set up a single production line for the HW since that (roughly) doubles the volume. X-Rite won't be making as much money on each ColorMunki Display, but they will be capturing sales that might otherwise go to a lower cost competitors product.

Yes, I think it's actually cheaper and more efficient for them to only have 1 production line..

It's just that I'm coming from a garment industry, specifically an automatic fabric production line, where a single batch can produce several grades..
Yes, a totally different beast, and totally unjustified view, but I'm quite jaded with production yield kinda thing tongue.gif

Anyway, yeah, hopefully they can capture the market from datacolor Spyder..
My monitor is calibrated with a Spyder4 Pro 1 year ago, recently I calibrated again with it.. Wow, the filters have shifted a lot! Making my screen noticably cooler, not D65 anymore..
Bought i1DPro, and it's back to similar condition when calibrated using Spyder4 Pro 1 year ago.. Hopefully the i1DPro will not drift that much..
Oh, and I tried calibrating my Plasma using Spyder4.. Gave up.. The continuous reading jumps around too much..

P.S. The Spyder4 is not mine, it's my friend's, so I don't know how he keeps it.. The climate is quite humid here..
Edited by vlix - 6/14/13 at 8:17am
post #2062 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

yes.

The targeting mode only knows about colors in your current color space selection (75% in this case) so you'll never see targeting mode switch to luminance/bullseye for saturations not in your selected color space.

Oh.. But some of other color shows the Luminance %, like green below:





Hmmm... Do I messed something up.. confused.gif
I'm attaching the .chc file.. Maybe you can check it out.. Hopefully I don't messed something up.. frown.gif
65VT50Pro1i1DPro75After.zip 2k .zip file
post #2063 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlix View Post

Oh.. But some of other color shows the Luminance %, like green below:

Hmmm... Do I messed something up.. confused.gif
I'm attaching the .chc file.. Maybe you can check it out.. Hopefully I don't messed something up.. frown.gif
65VT50Pro1i1DPro75After.zip 2k .zip file

haha, no, that's a bug. The tolerance on what the program thinks is 75% saturation for green is too large so it catches 100% and 50%.
post #2064 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

haha, no, that's a bug. The tolerance on what the program thinks is 75% saturation for green is too large so it catches 100% and 50%.

OOooo... I see... hehe..
Don't really wanna recalibrate again.. tongue.gif

But I still have a D8000 to calibrate.. Based on first initial testing.. I've got my work cut out for me..
post #2065 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlix View Post

Yes, I think it's actually cheaper and more efficient for them to only have 1 production line..

It's just that I'm coming from a garment industry, specifically an automatic fabric production line, where a single batch can produce several grades..
Yes, a totally different beast, and totally unjustified view, but I'm quite jaded with production yield kinda thing tongue.gif

Anyway, yeah, hopefully they can capture the market from datacolor Spyder..
My monitor is calibrated with a Spyder4 Pro 1 year ago, recently I calibrated again with it.. Wow, the filters have shifted a lot! Making my screen noticably cooler, not D65 anymore..
Bought i1DPro, and it's back to similar condition when calibrated using Spyder4 Pro 1 year ago.. Hopefully the i1DPro will not drift that much..
Oh, and I tried calibrating my Plasma using Spyder4.. Gave up.. The continuous reading jumps around too much..

P.S. The Spyder4 is not mine, it's my friend's, so I don't know how he keeps it.. The climate is quite humid here..

Although I appreciate your experience in that field, and the way things are done there, but you're comparing apples and oranges. For example, the leather in a vehicle can have scars and things like that because they aren't manufactured, but harvested, for lack of a better word. It's fairly simple to see imperfections in leather and easily "graded". It's not the same for electronics. The parts in these things are supposed to be exactly the same from part to part. They're made by computers and machines, so they should be identical. Now, things can happen to those machines that are building these parts, so a small amount are tested for each batch. Who knows what that number is for each device since there's no standard for QA, but lets say they actually test 10 out of 1000 that are in a batch. That testing is only to see if it works. I can guarantee you that XRite is not testing every single meter coming off the assembly line and selecting an A grade and B grade. They don't even test every single one to see if they work, so it's simply not possible to suggest that the Colormunki Display is a B grade device compared to the I1D3. I'm assuming that's why they crippled the firmware with a slower meter read, because they need a reason for charging more for one over the other.

To be clear, I'm not concerned with what meter anyone buys. For me, I don't need CalMAN or Chromapure, and I don't have a plasma TV, so there was absolutely nothing about the higher priced meter that I would gain anything from. I actually tried to find any reason why the I1D3 would be a better choice for me and I simply couldn't find it. Unfortunately for my wife, I'm more than willing to spend money on something that I'll gain from. The I1D3 simply didn't provide anything for my needs that I didn't get with the Colormunki Display.
Edited by Jestered - 6/14/13 at 8:34pm
post #2066 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

I can guarantee you that XRite is not testing every single meter coming off the assembly line and selecting an A grade and B grade. They don't even test every single one to see if they work, so it's simply not possible to suggest that the Colormunki Display is a B grade device compared to the I1D3.
That's not what I've heard, and I heard it from the horses mouth. Every single i1d3 is tested and calibrated - they each have their individual spectral sensitivity curves measured, and programmed into the firmware, and the spectral reference used is calibrated to a CS2000.
post #2067 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwgill View Post

That's not what I've heard, and I heard it from the horses mouth. Every single i1d3 is tested and calibrated - they each have their individual spectral sensitivity curves measured, and programmed into the firmware, and the spectral reference used is calibrated to a CS2000.

Is there anything that shows there is a difference in the readings between the two? Is there anything that says the CM isn't treated the same way? And who's the horse?
Edited by Jestered - 6/14/13 at 11:18pm
post #2068 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jestered View Post


Is there anything that shows there is a difference in the readings between the two? Is there anything that says the CM isn't treated the same way? And who's the horse?
The spectral sensitivity curves I've seen, both from the two instruments I have, and from a couple that people have sent me, are all slightly different. (The same applies to the Spyder 4 FWIW). I don't really have any idea whether the instruments are specially selected into two batches, but given the cosmetic differences and the way they are assembled, I imagine that they are tested as a finished unit, at which time it's too late to sort them. It's possible the filter material could be sorted into batches, but is it really worth the trouble ? I've had a few conversations with Tom Lianza (of Sequel fame) about the i1d3, as it's basically his baby.
post #2069 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

It's not the same for electronics. The parts in these things are supposed to be exactly the same from part to part. They're made by computers and machines, so they should be identical. Now, things can happen to those machines that are building these parts, so a small amount are tested for each batch. Who knows what that number is for each device since there's no standard for QA, but lets say they actually test 10 out of 1000 that are in a batch. That testing is only to see if it works. I can guarantee you that XRite is not testing every single meter coming off the assembly line and selecting an A grade and B grade. They don't even test every single one to see if they work, so it's simply not possible to suggest that the Colormunki Display is a B grade device compared to the I1D3. I'm assuming that's why they crippled the firmware with a slower meter read, because they need a reason for charging more for one over the other.

My experience of electronic manufacturing (Automotive) is very different to your description. Every component entering our production is QA verified by the supplier, and 100% of assemblies have various testing and inspections throughout the assembly process. In-Circuit Testing, and System level Functional checks on the final assembly is the norm. I am sure it would be the same with any electronic assembly process.

XRite Tech Support confirmed that EVERY unit is calibrated using reference quality meters, as previous poster mentioned.

I am surprised that you think build and ship attitude could be part of any manufacturers business plan these days. They wouldn't last a year.
post #2070 of 3446
Hey HCFR devs,

the latest madVR v0.86.4 build (just released) now supports remote controlled test patterns. Would you consider adding support to HCFR for this?

If you look into the "developers" folder shipping with madVR, you'll find a header and cpp file for this, plus a very simple demo application which demonstrates how to do this. It's really very simple. The header/cpp uses dynamic linking, so there's no problem if madVR is not installed, and it should (hopefully) work for any C++ compiler. I've only tested with MSVC++, though.

If you have any questions, or any feature wishes, or if you want anything changed, just let me know...
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