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HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 90

post #2671 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post


I only have CalMAN v5 Control Edition, which does not allow me to make 3DLUTs...

Do you have to have 3D LUT hardware to create a 3D LUT with software?


No, you can create 3D LUTs with software if you want. You just need a renderer for your video playbacks that supports such 3D LUTs, for example madVR. So you will only profit from that, if you play your videos from a computer. For using 3D LUTs with a blu-ray player you would also need a hardware like eecolorBox.

 

Here's a very good tutorial for creating such LUTs: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1471169/madvr-argyllcms

 

Edit:

Oh, just to give you an impression of the results, here are some pictures; 

3D LUT active in madVR, created with dispcalGUI and my i1 Pro 2

 

 

 


Edited by bmw525i - 11/16/13 at 8:01am
post #2672 of 3446
So pretty.
post #2673 of 3446
Mine is just as good now!

I have a few issues/bugs with HCFR:
-Sometimes when pressing a button to run whichever test pattern, the pattern appears in the background window, while HCFR stays on top of it, so no real measurement can take place, so I press ESC. Trying again works 90% of the time after pressing ESC, but 10% of the time it does it again second time around. Third time around always worked so far.
-HCFR shortcut creates HCFR.log file in the shortcut directory. Would it not be best to save in the installed directory?
-Animated flashing bars (black or white) do not use 0-255 range even if 0-255 range is selected. Meaning, if you see both bars flashing, you can still have black & white crush.

Some advice:
-Have a way to repeatedly measure the same pattern like in CalMAN.
-Have a way to use a small pattern window instead of forcing to use fullscreen, which is best.
-Create a way to measure only a single saturation % and a single ColorChecker pattern
-In case animated flashing bars tests are not a bug, then introducing flashing bars or a better way to test 0-255 black and white crush would be very helpful

If the above can be fixed and recommendation introduced, HCFR will simply be superior than any other calibration software out there!
post #2674 of 3446



Larry
post #2675 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

Mine is just as good now!

I have a few issues/bugs with HCFR:
-Sometimes when pressing a button to run whichever test pattern, the pattern appears in the background window, while HCFR stays on top of it, so no real measurement can take place, so I press ESC. Trying again works 90% of the time after pressing ESC, but 10% of the time it does it again second time around. Third time around always worked so far.
I will look at that, I don't normally calibrate with HCFR and the patterns on the same screen. Have you tried enabling screen blanking in the view images set-up?
Quote:
-HCFR shortcut creates HCFR.log file in the shortcut directory. Would it not be best to save in the installed directory?
yes, that would be better.
Quote:
-Animated flashing bars (black or white) do not use 0-255 range even if 0-255 range is selected. Meaning, if you see both bars flashing, you can still have black & white crush.
On the list.
Quote:
Some advice:
-Have a way to repeatedly measure the same pattern like in CalMAN.
This can already be done for grey scale (select the pattern to display by column in the measurements box) and primaries/secondaries. For primaries and secondaries the proper color to display is chosen automatically when you have "display primary color during user measures" checked in preferences.
Quote:
-Have a way to use a small pattern window instead of forcing to use fullscreen, which is best.
Larry shows you above you can already set a custom pattern size (and background level)
Quote:
-Create a way to measure only a single saturation % and a single ColorChecker pattern
On the list.
post #2676 of 3446
Should HCFR be defaulting to 2.25 for BT.1886? I always keep reading these different views between 2.3 to 2.4. That and they say movies is 2.4. Though I find it's too deep… it's lovely but a bit on the rich side.
Edited by xvfx - 11/17/13 at 10:08am
post #2677 of 3446
Thread Starter 
There is no default BT.1886, it depends on the display black and white levels. So after you run a gray scale the program calculates what your specific BT.1886 function should look like and that is displayed as the reference curve in the log/log gamma view and the target Y values (Gamma Y row) in the gray scale measurements page.
post #2678 of 3446
Why is there a difference in the way 100% saturation and the actual color, when chosing Primary or Secondary Color test, dE is calculated?
post #2679 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by xvfx View Post

Another good thing is the correct gamma has finally fixed the dancing effects in some of the darker scenes for Sky HD due to their bitrate compression. Can only sometimes see some banding in dull fog/dark scenes but Blu-Ray playback there is no anomalies.

be22.jpg

Something isn't right here… with the Excel chart, my 10% greyscale is a little high. Checking Man of Steel about 50 minutes or so when he's flying in space, I'm seeing a ever so slightly faint cloudy yellow grey splotch anomaly thats not showing in any other space scene from other films. Top/middle left of the screen. It's only this specific scene in all the space scenes throughout the film.

Apparently 10% should be 0.500 vs my 0.649 after entering 88.930cd/m2, 2.25 gamma.
post #2680 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Zoyd 

The Y shift is because HCFR implements a Y correction by design. So if you profile the D3 using HCFR (like I do) it's fine, but because your matrix does not include a Y correction it generates that small error. I think John said he would fix that so that one can do the correction with or without Y.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAd View Post

If we start with the 3 colour method, this takes the readings and references in xyz or XYZ space and calculates the matrix that will transform the readings to the references. If you use xyz then the columns of the matrix add to 1 which means that if you apply it to xyz values then the results are always valid xyz triplets.


The 4 colour approach ends up doing something more subtle and ends up with a matrix that when applied to xyz values converts the white from reading to reference keeping the xyz balance intact but that only works for that one point, looking at the column sums they no longer add to 1.

This is what confused me slightly and made me think that re-normalisation was desireable/correct.


When moving to XYZ values rather than xyz the 3 colour approach will adjust the 3 primaries from whatever the readings are to whatever the references are for all 3 values so it just works.


With the 4 colour matrix the Y values with shift in a clever but not very obvious way that's not related to the actual Y readings as all the inputs to the calculations are normalized values.


I'm currently thinking that the best approach will be to scale the resulting 4 colour matrix so that the measured Y value for white is corrected to the reference white Y value and not to do any normalisation of the results. This is a minor issue and with only effect the Y values in a linear fashion and so for now just use the calculated matrices.


John

Hi, sorry for bringing this up again but I could not find a reference to how to interpret John's Excel sheet properly. In particular which is the better to use - 3 color or 4 color matrix?
Was that matrix handling code fixed and what implications did it have on the issus mentioned above?

I used the 4 color matrix on my attempts to use my own Chromapure pro report, in the same way that kjgarrisson did. Not sure I got it right though...
post #2681 of 3446
Rectified the space scene anomaly for Man of Steel from the spreadsheet calculations but now the graph looks wonky. However, I'm pretty satisfied with the picture.

ohaf.jpg
vqso.jpg
ygj7.jpg
Edited by xvfx - 11/19/13 at 10:10pm
post #2682 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Why do you use the spreadsheet? Gamma Y row is your target.
post #2683 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Andrei,

I know that it has been said that there is very little variation among the D3 meters but I haven't seen any data to support that claim. Be that it as it might, here is the matrix for my D3 as measured on my 65VT60 on September 14.

1.045607 __ 0.013241 __ -0.002031
-0.013497 __ 1.063927 __ 0.005118
0.011830 __ -0.013581 __ 1.034892


Larry
Larry,you've been so kind to give your correction matrix. I've finally use them, and, surprise no green tinge on faces everything looks like I feel it should be.
So, when you have a little time, please do a wb reading in hcfr with correction matrix and one with general edr plasma just to see if what I guess it's happening with panasonic plasma's is true. With edr I think it's reading red to high so I have to adjust it too much and so, I get a green picture.
Thanks very much!
Edited by Andrei_VVB - 11/19/13 at 1:29am
post #2684 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Why do you use the spreadsheet? Gamma Y row is your target.

That was a question from this post. Seems the spreadsheet and HCFR calculations differ. I would be interested in hearing your answer to that too as I am about to fine tune my gamma on a pair of displays.
post #2685 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

That was a question from this post. Seems the spreadsheet and HCFR calculations differ. I would be interested in hearing your answer to that too as I am about to fine tune my gamma on a pair of displays.

Well I don't know what spreadsheet he is talking about but if it's the one I provided awhile back it agrees exactly with HCFR values. In any case the HCFR target values are correct so use them.
post #2686 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post


Hi, sorry for bringing this up again but I could not find a reference to how to interpret John's Excel sheet properly. In particular which is the better to use - 3 color or 4 color matrix?
Was that matrix handling code fixed and what implications did it have on the issus mentioned above?

I used the 4 color matrix on my attempts to use my own Chromapure pro report, in the same way that kjgarrisson did. Not sure I got it right though...

The correction matrix HCFR calculates uses either 3 (no white) or 4 (with white) depending on your preference selection. Both work very well but I use the 4 color so that Y white luminance is matched between my i1pro2 and d3. If you are building one from the Chromapure report I would try both and see what the differences are for grayscale, primaries/secondaries. If they agree within perceptual error limits than you don't have to worry about it, if they don't then you'd need to investigate why.
post #2687 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Well I don't know what spreadsheet he is talking about but if it's the one I provided awhile back it agrees exactly with HCFR values. In any case the HCFR target values are correct so use them.

The one you enter your peak white and gamma values that calculates them. Gamut, Saturation, Brightness, dE Chart.xls. Plus I did follow the HCFR values.

Then I ended up with this.
Quote:
Checking Man of Steel about 50 minutes or so when he's flying in space, I'm seeing a ever so slightly faint cloudy yellow grey splotch anomaly thats not showing in any other space scene from other films.

Top/middle left of the screen. It's only this specific scene in all the space scenes throughout the film.

With the rectified values from the spreadsheet, it's a smooth low glow gradient from the sun on that part of the screen.

So following the values for 10% in HCFR, I shouldn't be getting splotches from the suns gradient in that scene.
Edited by xvfx - 11/19/13 at 9:22am
post #2688 of 3446
Gamut, Saturation, Brightness, dE Chart.zip 386k .zip file

This is the spread sheet xvfx is talking about.

If you enter the 100 Y like for a 2.2 run ,it differs than what the Gamma Y reading hcfr says.
post #2689 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Well xvfx has HCFR set to BT.1886 and that spreadsheet doesn't calculate BT.1886 Y targets so you can't compare it to HCFR. It appears to me he thinks BT.1886 has a "reference gamma value", which it doesn't. If you want a pure power law gamma at 2.25 (or whatever) you have to select "Display gamma", not BT.1886
post #2690 of 3446
BT.1886 shouldn't be showing an anomaly in that scene?… it should be a smooth gradient. Isn't that what the Movie industry is using? unless Man of Steel has been made with a flat line of gamma 2.2? I don't know but for it to not show a low gradient in that space scene isn't right.
Edited by xvfx - 11/19/13 at 12:17pm
post #2691 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xvfx View Post

BT.1886 shouldn't be showing an anomaly in that scene?… it should be a smooth gradient. Isn't that what the Movie industry is using? unless Man of Steel has been made with a flat line of gamma 2.2? I don't know but for it to not show a low gradient in that space scene isn't right.

If there is an anomaly in that scene when played on your system using a particular set of display control settings it is due to your display and it's settings, not the formula used to calculate Y targets. BT.1886 is just a recommended value to set your display at, if it produces some problem on your display you will have to use something else. There is no way of knowing what the gamma response was on the display that was used to master that movie.
post #2692 of 3446
That doesn't make sense. According to HCFR it's made 10% gamma brighter than it should be hence this anomaly. It's like light jpg noise dancing next to the dark because the sun gradient isn't blending in with the space section of the film. Once the 10% was set darker, it's all smoothed out.

Yet all the other numerous films I've checked in dark areas hasn't encountered this with the previous BT.1886 settings. Only Man of Steel with that one scene.

So if it was the display and settings it would be transferring across many other films…
post #2693 of 3446
Thread Starter 
From the above graphs all I can tell that you have done is followed the recommended BT.1886 curve for every level except the 10% level. At 10% you have lowered the response from the recommended value of 0.576 cd/m^2 to 0.422 cd/m^2. If you like that better for that particular movie or it avoids a problem you are seeing with that particular movie that's fine, but it has nothing to do with calibration.
post #2694 of 3446
I agree with zoyd... It's probably the display and its settings, or the anomaly is in the movie itself. Man of Steel is pretty bit-starved (only ~20Mb/s bitrate) considering that it's fairly grainy... this can cause banding (or not so smooth gradients) from compression. Raising the gamma at low video levels is probably just masking it. Considering that you only see this in Man of Steel leads me to believe that it's the movie itself. I don't think that it's HCFR's fault and it's not making your gamma brighter than it 'should be'. If you use a spreadsheet that actually includes BT.1886, you'll see that the numbers should be the same as HCFR's gamma Y targets. If you're not happy with how your set performs using BT.1886, use display gamma and set your desired target.
Edited by rahzel - 11/19/13 at 1:14pm
post #2695 of 3446
Seems you were right. Upon checking it on the PC I can see it there as well. Seems my previous calibration was fine.

v59r.png3ooa.th.png
post #2696 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

Larry,you've been so kind to give your correction matrix. I've finally use them, and, surprise no green tinge on faces everything looks like I feel it should be.
So, when you have a little time, please do a wb reading in hcfr with correction matrix and one with general edr plasma just to see if what I guess it's happening with panasonic plasma's is true. With edr I think it's reading red to high so I have to adjust it too much and so, I get a green picture.
Thanks very much!

Here are the results:

With my profile after calibration:


With generic profile substituted in place of my profile :



If the calibration were done with the generic profile, as you found red would be reduced too much.


Larry
post #2697 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post


If the calibration were done with the generic profile, as you found red would be reduced too much.


Larry

Is that the Plasma edr correction (.ccss)? I think that is what he is interested in.
post #2698 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Is that the Plasma edr correction (.ccss)? I think that is what he is interested in.

I showed the generic plasma .thc correction. I've not used the .ccss correction. In fact, I haven't paid attention to that aspect of the software and I'm not sure that I know how to install a ccss. biggrin.gif

Larry
post #2699 of 3446
When I try to create a correction file for my i1Display Pro using my CCFL LCD TV, it shows me the default matrix without any corrections present. Does that mean that my colorimeter does not really need a correction file for LCD displays?
post #2700 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

I showed the generic plasma .thc correction. I've not used the .ccss correction. In fact, I haven't paid attention to that aspect of the software and I'm not sure that I know how to install a ccss. biggrin.gif

Larry

Skip the meter correction page and choose Plasma (EDR ...) under display type. This will apply it automatically to all readings. It will be interesting to see how well it does on your display with the more saturated red primary.
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