or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Display Calibration › HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 93

post #2761 of 3446

okay,You can display the stimulus pattern in question, 70% window, use free measurement to observe the measured xyY value while changing your gamma setting for 70% in the TV/projector, and align the measured Y to the target gamma Y as shown in the measurement table.

ec5F

post #2762 of 3446
I'm pretty new to HCFR, but this still seems like a bug to me.

I ran saturation measurements and they seem to be plotted correctly on the CIE diagram, but when I click on a specific value in the measures tab the target is showing a huge value for deltax or deltay (in the yellow popup, and also in the location of the arrow). 0% and 100% saturations might be correct, but there's something wrong for 25%, 50% and 75%.

Here's the CIE diagram, with the 75% red point highlighted:



Now, for the same 75% red point, look at the target in the next image and it shows delta x: 78.9% (which is surely much too large):



I also attached the complete .chc file (zipped). NaturalECOMemory1.zip 4k .zip file
post #2763 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Hi - that target indicator is only used for grayscale and fully saturated primaries.
post #2764 of 3446
Thanks. Is there any reason why the target couldn't be made to work in other cases? Or maybe I'm missing the whole point of it. Other than being confused by the target, the software has been very easy to use and does everything I need.

One more thing. I have an i1Display Pro, and notice there is only one generic .ccss file for projectors. Can I assume that's going to be accurate enough for any LCD projector? (I'm using it with an Epson 5030). I have no way to make my own correction matrix, so I'm hoping that's the case. Being new to this, it's a little unsatisfying to realize that you have no simple way of knowing how accurate your meter is.
post #2765 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Thanks. Is there any reason why the target couldn't be made to work in other cases?
As it stands now the target indicator is auto-selecting the current primary/secondary color that you are calibrating (with constant measuring). I.e just start measuring constantly and select the color pattern that you want to calibrate - zapp the target indicator switches to the corresponding color. Very neat and makes it easy to switch between colors when calibrating CMS. Just change pattern andf the target indicator follows.
It does this by looking at the primary/secondary color that is neareast to your mesurement by dE comparison. That is why it can not work for saturation sweeps as the dE is too close to separate the different targets.

As neat as this is I have proposed a change to the current scheme that the target should be possible to focus on a specific target column by clicking on it. Mostly for grayscale settings so that the corresponding target column gets updated with "live" data and not just the indicator on the left. That should save us a few full grayscale sweeps to get graphs updated when we calibrate I think. For color the current scheme works pretty well although better consistency between grayscale and CMS calibration procedures would be nicer and less confusing for users.

As for the target indicator showing false deltax when selecting a saturation sweep target column, I too would consider it a bug. It would be better IMHO if the target indicator was disabled altogether when an data column that it does not support is selected.

As always, it is up to the coders in the project to prioritize what is important and what is not. The work done so far is great, and I can surely live with these little quirks. A good way to deal with them though is to document in the wiki. I might be able to help out there if needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

One more thing. I have an i1Display Pro, and notice there is only one generic .ccss file for projectors. Can I assume that's going to be accurate enough for any LCD projector?
Yes, the lamp type of all the common LCD projectors is pretty much the same, meaning the spectral output matches closely. The ccss correction works in conjunction with the firmware in your D3 meter and reads it's specific filter coefficients and thereby calculates a correction matrix. It is not as ultra-accurate as having a reference spectro and create your own correction matrix, but the difference is very minor. A number of posts earlier have dealt with this and the dE between spectro and ccss+D3 is mostly insignificant. wink.gif
That said, I also would like to have a spectro just to get that last accuray. It is just to darn expensive though... smile.gif
Edited by Barsk - 11/28/13 at 12:06am
post #2766 of 3446
Quote:
As always, it is up to the coders in the project to prioritize what is important and what is not. The work done so far is great, and I can surely live with these little quirks.
The improvements to HCFR since I first found it in March are amazing. Hats off to the developers, I can't believe this software is free.
post #2767 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

...
Yes, the lamp type of all the common LCD projectors is pretty much the same, meaning the spectral output matches closely

Thanks. The results I'm getting certainly seem OK (colours look good).
post #2768 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k View Post

The improvements to HCFR since I first found it in March are amazing. Hats off to the developers, I can't believe this software is free.

Thanks!

I have a small update available to version 3.1.0.4

Changelog


I've added a "white reference weighting" option to the dE formulas. When either "Gray world" or "Dark" is selected, all the dE calculations are scaled using a white reference of 15% or 5% relative luminance respectively. This is somewhat similar to what the relative Y switch does for gray scale. The dE value with these weightings give you an idea of what the actual color error would be if your vision was adapted to those luminance levels. 15% is a good estimate of what your typical adaptation level will be during a majority of video content viewed in a dim environment.
post #2769 of 3446
Thanks buddy and a Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours...smile.gif
post #2770 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Happy Thanksgiving.
post #2771 of 3446
Larry I've changed my st60 with vt60. I want to ask you what were the patterns that gave the best results in your calibration ? Also, do you have a slightly pink tint in the centre of the screen? Both st60 and vt60 were the same. Thank you!
post #2772 of 3446
Oh thank you so much! I knew that there was something sketchy going on when I was playing with saturation and brightness and getting different results when not re-reading gray scale each time!
post #2773 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

Larry I've changed my st60 with vt60. I want to ask you what were the patterns that gave the best results in your calibration ? Also, do you have a slightly pink tint in the centre of the screen? Both st60 and vt60 were the same. Thank you!

Andrei,

I now have two VT60 units -- the 65 inch in the living room and a relatively new 60 inch in the bedroom. Both seem to look best when calibrated using the 6.5% normal windows from Ryan Masciola's disk.

WRT the screen uniformity: My 65 inch has a very slight pinkish area along the bottom 3 to 5 inches of the screen when a full screen gray pattern is displayed but this is not noticeable under normal viewing. The 60 inch has near perfect uniformity.

Larry
post #2774 of 3446
Hi everyone,
one simple question.. how it works 'pattern intensity' in 'View images' generator mode?
post #2775 of 3446
Thread Starter 
If you want to run primaries/secondaries at a lower input level, say 75%, enter 75 in that box. Note that saturation sweeps require a primary run at 100%.
post #2776 of 3446
Zoyd,

I get really confused with dE values for primaries and secondaries and with dE values for saturation sweeps:

First I measure gray scale.
Then I press "Measure primary colors".
I can view dE values by selecting "Primaries and Secondaries" in "Measures" tab.
Red dE = 1.6 in this case.
Then I press "Measure red saturation scale"
I can view dE values by selecting "Red saturation scale" in "Measures" tab.
Shouldn't 100% red saturation dE value be IDENTICAL to the red color dE value under "Primaries and Secondaries"???

Because it often isn't! I understand that each measure may produce slightly different results because of margin of error from my colorimeter, but sometimes that number is just way off! Have I falsely assumed that measuring colorspace is the same thing as measuring 100% saturation for each color?

BTW, the CIE diagram only shows the XY value for targets, but it does not show the luminance. So, technically, moving closer to target could actually increase dE value if moving closer to target has an effect on luminance, right? That is the case with me... I can improve my XY coordinates greatly, but it will result in a higher dE value.

EDIT: OK, even when I reduce my contrast drastically to greatly improve my overall RGB and grayscale luminance my dE value is higher when the red dot for 75% saturation is in the dead center than if I were to decrease saturation so that that the red dot is further away from the target.
To closer to target = higher dE value. Are those targets exactly where they should be?
Edited by MonarchX - 12/1/13 at 12:28pm
post #2777 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post


Are those targets exactly where they should be?

yes, all targets are calculated correctly. Note that any target with less than 100% saturation depends on gamma so be sure that if you have the gamma reference set to "use measured" that you have run a proper grayscale and that if you don't have this box checked that the value in the reference box correctly reflects your actual average gamma. Often times minimum dE will not occur when x,y is exactly aligned with the target depending on delta luminance. If luminance is high, a slight desaturation can offset that and result in a lower dE, it'a all about trade-offs (unless you have a 3dLUT smile.gif )
Edited by zoyd - 12/2/13 at 1:48pm
post #2778 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

yes, all targets are calculated correctly. Note that any target with less than 100% saturation depends on gamma so be sure that if you have the gamma reference set to "use measured" that you have run a proper grayscale and that if you don't have this box checked that the value in the reference box correctly reflects your actual average gamma. Often times minimum dE will not occur when x,y is exactly aligned with the target depending on delta luminance. If luminance is high, a sleight desaturation can offset that and result in a lower dE, it'a all about trade-offs (unless you have a 3dLUT smile.gif )

Hmmm... Well, I lowered my contrast to a point where gray scale & RGB luminance all line up almost perfectly. Then I ran a gray scale measure, which produced a near-flat 2.2 gamma. However, once again, moving red saturation closer to target increased dE...

There is really no way to control specific color luminance other than adjusting contrast and brightness to get gray scale AND RGB luminance aligned, right?

How can you adjust CMY luminance then?

I often see calibration reports include luminance information by showing a specific color luminance and gray scale luminance for that color. They should be the same. In my case, that almost never happens.
post #2779 of 3446
Thread Starter 
post #2780 of 3446
OK, back to reading then...

What type of correction files does HCFR use? The .ccss ones or the .edr ones? What is the difference between the two?
post #2781 of 3446
Thread Starter 
They are just two different file formats. HCFR uses the ArgyllCMS specific colorimeter calibration spectral samples (ccss) files. The set of files that are included in the installation have been translated from Emissive Display Reference (EDR) files.
post #2782 of 3446
just installed the latest build (3.0.5.2), and noticed something strange. When I take free measures, the whole screen goes black, and my cursor disappears. I can function somewhat by alt tabbing and restoring other windows, but something very strange is going on. Also, I'm not sure if this is related, but the same bug seems to have reset my keyboard repeat rate.

I'm running xp sp3, and this happened with both the DTP-94 and i1 pro


edit: also, is there a way to neatly export the spectral data graph? Currently I'm using print screen.
post #2783 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Current build 3.1.0.4 is linked in my sig. You did not mention how you have your generator set-up. If you are displaying patterns on the same screen that HCFR is running on, the default is to display a full screen black. If on another screen (or you are using the DVD generator) then uncheck "Blank screen during measure" in the view images->blanking tab.


Currently, the spectral data plot can only be saved via screen cap.
post #2784 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

I now have two VT60 units -- the 65 inch in the living room and a relatively new 60 inch in the bedroom. Both seem to look best when calibrated using the 6.5% normal windows from Ryan Masciola's disk.
Hi Larry,
I tried yesterday to calibrate my 50VT60 with those patterns with target 120cd/mq and BT.1886: I got a grey scale almost flat (best I ever had), but some movies scenes were terrible.. DFC and little sunburns (probably caused by ABL).
Which was your target?
Edited by Speeder82 - 12/3/13 at 8:45am
post #2785 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Current build 3.1.0.4 is linked in my sig. You did not mention how you have your generator set-up. If you are displaying patterns on the same screen that HCFR is running on, the default is to display a full screen black. If on another screen (or you are using the DVD generator) then uncheck "Blank screen during measure" in the view images->blanking tab.


Currently, the spectral data plot can only be saved via screen cap.

Thanks for the reply Zoyd.

Generator set up is "view images". Unchecking blank screen during measure doesn't do anything. However, if I choose GDI (no background), as opposed to the default GDI, the black screen only takes up a small window. But the cursor is still lost, and the only way to bring it back is to hit alt tab. If I choose test overlay, it's almost impossible to restore function.

I don't understand why anything should happen when I do free measures. In previous builds, this allowed me to see the output of the instrument real time, but it didn't change anything display wise. I'm talking about the green "play" button here, just so we're on the same page. I should have been clearer earlier, just realized it's not called "free measure" but rather "run or stop continuous measures".
post #2786 of 3446
Thread Starter 
What do you want to measure real-time? Continuous measures is not designed to run patterns on the same screen that the program runs on, right now the pattern will maintain focus.
post #2787 of 3446
I use custom designed test patterns and display them using other software. Sometimes, this software is being generated from a separate machine, onto a separate display. With previous builds, I was able to click the green button, and I could read off the measurements real time, with the test patterns either on the same display and machine as HCFR, or on a different one. This capability is essential to my workflow.
post #2788 of 3446
Thread Starter 
Select the DVD generator, this will turn off the internal generator (untethered mode) so it does not interfere with your measurements.
post #2789 of 3446
that makes sense, appreciate your help smile.gif
post #2790 of 3446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speeder82 View Post

Hi Larry,
I tried yesterday to calibrate my 50VT60 with those patterns with target 120cd/mq and BT.1886: I got a grey scale almost flat (best I ever had), but some movies scenes were terrible.. DFC and little sunburns (probably caused by ABL).
Which was your target?

I find bt1886 much too dark for the VT60. Using your 120 cd/m^2 and a typical black level of 0.005 cd/m^2, you get the following transfer functions:




For this TV, I prefer a gamma closer to the 2.22 power law curve shown -- or maybe a bit higher, say 2.25 or so.

The face color problem probably is not associated with the gamma curve or ABL. Try reducing the Color control. A setting of 47 seems optimum for the VT series.

Larry
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Display Calibration
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Display Calibration › HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software