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HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 105

post #3121 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

I'm not making outlandish statements - I am asking if I understand things properly. Did you not see that I said "I actually hope I am wrong and there is a way or I simply have not done it properly!" ? I love HCFR and I defend and promote over any other software package in posts where newbies ask which software to get. No need to get fussy tongue.gif.

Yes it's possible. If you start with a flat Gamma curve, and want to calibrate to BT.1886, you have to use 10pt. WB. For example, to get the low/dark end of the curve to drop down under the flat line, you have to raise all three colors up one until that point dips down below the line and meets the BT.1886 reference point. You have to keep doing this until all 10 points in the curve are sitting where they should be for a BT.1886 curve. You have to remember that raising the colors for a point will drop the line in the Gamme curve. Lowering the colors for a point will raise the line in the Gamma curve. It takes some time getting it all adjusted, but it's easily achieved with HCFR.
post #3122 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

Yes it's possible. If you start with a flat Gamma curve, and want to calibrate to BT.1886, you have to use 10pt. WB. For example, to get the low/dark end of the curve to drop down under the flat line, you have to raise all three colors up one until that point dips down below the line and meets the BT.1886 reference point. You have to keep doing this until all 10 points in the curve are sitting where they should be for a BT.1886 curve. You have to remember that raising the colors for a point will drop the line in the Gamme curve. Lowering the colors for a point will raise the line in the Gamma curve. It takes some time getting it all adjusted, but it's easily achieved with HCFR.


OK, now that makes sense to me. CalMAN just uses a different approach and shows how far up or down you need to move your RGB to achieve proper gamma. It kind of shows you gamma and WB on the same exact graph.
post #3123 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

With HCFR - YES, but with CalMAN you would get 2 entirely different readings when using power-law gamma preference and BT.1886 gamma preference. Did you not look at the screenshot I provided? Both of them show the same exact calibration, but do you not see how WB graph is different in them???????????????????????????

If that's the case, which I don't know because I don't use CalMAN, then there's a major issue with that software. It's normal that running meter readings are not going to be exact from reading to reading (if you don't change any settings on the TV). If you didn't change any settings on the TV and you're getting readings that different, then somethings not right.
post #3124 of 3436
Loving hcfr and this thread!

Okay, reading the above exchange about adjusting gamma via the grayscale adjustments on a samsung tv, I am wondering whether i can do that on mine.

Here is the gamma. The single gamma control is set as far as it can go, but I'm still averaging low.



And although color temp is looking very good, I should have to sacrifice that, right? More just move stuff in tandem? Which stuff?

post #3125 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

OK, now that makes sense to me. CalMAN just uses a different approach and shows how far up or down you need to move your RGB to achieve proper gamma. It kind of shows you gamma and WB on the same exact graph.

So that's how CalMAN works then. They are simply doing a little more hand-holding and walking you through it. HCFR is more for the person that has at least a basic understanding of what you're adjusting and setting. No hand-holding with HCFR. I learned on HCFR for that reason alone. I didin't want something to walk me through the calibration and it be done without me not understanding exactly what I was doing. It's not that one is better than the other. It's just a matter of how much you want to understand what you're actually doing. If you'd prefer to just have something tell you what to do and get good results, then CalMAN I'm sure is a good choice. If you really want to understand exactly what you're doing, then you're better off with HCFR especially since it's free.
post #3126 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

If that's the case, which I don't know because I don't use CalMAN, then there's a major issue with that software. It's normal that running meter readings are not going to be exact from reading to reading (if you don't change any settings on the TV). If you didn't change any settings on the TV and you're getting readings that different, then somethings not right.

Read my reply before this one - its all good. It just shows gamma and WB on the same exact graph - same stuff, different way of displaying it. With HCFR you have to go back and forth between Gamma and WB graphs to set up the gamma curve, while CalMAN allows you to use the same exact graph to see when you reach that desires gamma point. Its like a hybrid graph. Anyway, both apps produce the same result using different means. Neither is bugged in this regard.
post #3127 of 3436
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post


Note that WB is not the same in each screenshot. If I were to use HCFR, it wouldn't matter whether I select BT.1886 gamma or power-law gamma in preferences - WB graph would be exactly the same for both selections. That means that unless a TV has specific 10pt gamma controls (not just 10pt WB controls), then that person can't create a BT.1886 gamma curve using HCFR, but can do so with CalMAN, correct?

As I said, WB is independent of gamma so those plots are an indication of probe repeatability. You can calibrate to BT.1886 using HCFR with either 10pt gamma or 10pt WB depending on what's available on your display.
post #3128 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

So that's how CalMAN works then. They are simply doing a little more hand-holding and walking you through it. HCFR is more for the person that has at least a basic understanding of what you're adjusting and setting. No hand-holding with HCFR. I learned on HCFR for that reason alone. I didin't want something to walk me through the calibration and it be done without me not understanding exactly what I was doing. It's not that one is better than the other. It's just a matter of how much you want to understand what you're actually doing. If you'd prefer to just have something tell you what to do and get good results, then CalMAN I'm sure is a good choice. If you really want to understand exactly what you're doing, then you're better off with HCFR especially since it's free.

I learned HCFR first too, but I bought CalMAN thinking it would let me AutoCal any TV via connecting to its hardware - oh how little did I kno... Now I just use CalMAN for ease of use and pretty GUI. Its very slow though - HCFR is much more responsive!
post #3129 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

As I said, WB is independent of gamma so those plots are an indication of probe repeatability. You can calibrate to BT.1886 using HCFR with either 10pt gamma or 10pt WB depending on what's available on your display.

Nope not that at all. If you read my replies and those of Jestered - you'll figure it out as we have. It has nothing to do with repeat-ability though. CalMAN is just not using a true WB graph - it combines WB and gamma into a hybrid grayscale graph that changes depending on the gamma setting used to show how far up or down one needs to move RGB to achieve the desired gamma.
post #3130 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

How can an identical pattern from 2 different discs show different readings? It makes no sense to me. If such was the case and a person had to decide which pattern disc works best simply by judging the image it calibrates and the readings it provides then its not a standard at all. How do you know which one is right? You can't trust your eyes, so you trust your colorimeter, but how do you which reading is correct? Maybe its the ones that you don't like that show you the proper reading...

I don't see complaints in GCD and Mascior's thread if they were wrong. Maybe my TV doesn't work well with the AVS709 disk. Who knows. I'm no expert but I've explained my findings.

If the past calibrations were right as you suggest, I shouldn't have pitted grungy shades of gradients through films.
post #3131 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

Loving hcfr and this thread!

Okay, reading the above exchange about adjusting gamma via the grayscale adjustments on a samsung tv, I am wondering whether i can do that on mine.

Here is the gamma. The single gamma control is set as far as it can go, but I'm still averaging low.

At that point, don't worry about the RGB readings. Look at your Gamma curve. At 90% you're way too light/bright (low in the curve). To fix this go to your 10pt. WB and go to point 9. Now lower all three colors the same amount one at a time and take your readings again. You'll notice that point will start coming up to the reference line. Keep doing that until you get it where you want it. Do that moving down the point scale until they all are where you want them. Keep in mind that you may get one perfect, but it may move slightly when you go to adjust the one next to it. You'll have to keep fine tuning as you go down the scale. Eventually you'll have the Gamma that you're wanting. Once that's done, go back to your RGB readings and run the meter. You might have to make some fine adjustments there, but it shouldn't be much. Since you're moving all three colors the same amount when adjusting Gamma, it shouldn't have much of an impact on the RGB readings. At least not enough that some simple fine tuning won't fix.
Edited by Jestered - 1/28/14 at 4:42pm
post #3132 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by xvfx View Post

I don't see complaints in GCD and Mascior's thread if they were wrong. Maybe my TV doesn't work well with the AVS709 disk. Who knows. I'm no expert but I've explained my findings.

If the past calibrations were right as you suggest, I shouldn't have pitted grungy shades of gradients through films.

All I am saying is that a pattern is a pattern and its readings shouldn't change. How can a TV not work well with a specific disk? All I can think about is that PS3 playback codec is messing something up, but aren't you getting different readings between GCD and Mascior's disk? They should all work exactly the same... If that isn't the case then there is a problem somewhere - I named only one I could think of (playback codec). I have no idea what else it could be. I'm not trying to imply its a user error, but... it could be! I make them all the time and then figure it out...
post #3133 of 3436
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

Nope not that at all. If you read my replies and those of Jestered - you'll figure it out as we have. It has nothing to do with repeat-ability though. CalMAN is just not using a true WB graph - it combines WB and gamma into a hybrid grayscale graph that changes depending on the gamma setting used to show how far up or down one needs to move RGB to achieve the desired gamma.

I see, the RGB ratios are identical but all shifted above/below a target total luminance level. I prefer separating the two but that's what I'm used to. I'm not sure how plotting it that way yields any more information than what's in the gamma graph, luminance chart, and Y targets.


Regarding pattern agreement. If anyone can get repeatable xyY variations under identical test conditions that are outside probe precision levels they should publish the results so authors can check to see if there are any problems.
post #3134 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

All I am saying is that a pattern is a pattern and its readings shouldn't change. How can a TV not work well with a specific disk? All I can think about is that PS3 playback codec is messing something up,

I brought the dedicated Panasonic player through to see the other night. It more or less gave the same results. ( .*) a difference.

Quote:
but aren't you getting different readings between GCD and Mascior's disk? They should all work exactly the same... If that isn't the case then there is a problem somewhere - I named only one I could think of (playback codec). I have no idea what else it could be. I'm not trying to imply its a user error, but... it could be! I make them all the time and then figure it out...

No, Mascior's disc gave the same results as GCD. Except Cyan. One click of green to rectify 100%. Gradients should look smooth in films if it was correct. Thats how it looks with those two discs. Unlike before.
post #3135 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarnerL View Post

I understand the Samsung controls in how to adjust luminance and to desaturate, or saturate a particular color. But as to which slider to move and which direction in order to exactly hit the target x,y or the center of the target graphic, having the RGB graph and aiming for the particular RGB percentages as given in that spreadsheet and as described in the Special Hint section of that post, would enable someone with Samsung CMS controls to more intuitively know which slider to move first and instantly see graphically and numerically how far off and what direction to move the sliders and whether to saturate or desaturate to hit the target x,y. I assume the RGB graphs used to be included when aiming for a primary/secondary as that post I linked to described this in HCFR as a quicker and faster way to hit the target.

I'll cut and paste that section here:

Special Hint!
I have found a very easy way to hit the correct color locations. This takes away the headache of trying to hit x, y locations (as shown above) and how you adjust saturation and hue to get there. See the red, green, and blue bars in the HCFR picture above? (three pictures back) In the picture, the bars show 98%, 100%, 100% to the left of the ftL and cd/m2 readings. These are the bars I'm talking about. Here are the target %'s for the red, green, and blue bar for each 75% color saturation location. (They are also listed in my Excel spreadsheet on the "Calibration Aid" tab as shown a couple of pictures back).








Code:
\t Red Bar Green Bar Blue Bar
Red Primary\t 378%\t24%\t24%
Green Primary\t 15%\t133%\t15%
Blue Primary\t 64%\t64%\t555%
Yellow Secondary 106% 106% 17%
Cyan Secondary\t 24%\t120%\t120%
Magenta Secondary 247%\t41%\t247%


For example, lets say you want to calibrate red. To hit the correct saturation, all you have to do is increase or decrease the red saturation slider in the Epson RGBCMY menu until the red bar reads 378%, and the Green and Blue bar read 24%. If the green and blue bars are not equal, use hue to correct this. Hue is always used to balance colors. When calibrating blue for example, you want green and red to be equal. This creates the correct hue. When adjusting a secondary color, like yellow for example, you want an equal balance of green and red. (red and green will have a high %, while blue will be low.)

Keep in mind that you still need to set brightness (Y) for red, and all the colors The target value will be shown in the "Calibration Aid" spreadheet, or you can calculate it based on the 100% gray window. Remember, calibrate red, green, and blue before you calibrate the secondary colors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

ok, I see what you are after. I will take a look to see if a switch can be added to revert back to previous behavior (and if it still works as it should) but it won't be until after the holidays.
Just wondering Zoyd, were you still going to look at adding a switch to revert back to previous behavior or have you decided not?
post #3136 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

At that point, don't worry about the RGB readings. Look at your Gamma curve. At 90% you're way too light/bright (low in the curve). To fix this go to your 10pt. WB and go to point 9. Now lower all three colors the same amount one at a time and take your readings again. You'll notice that point will start coming up to the reference line. Keep doing that until you get it where you want it. Do that moving down the point scale until they all are where you want them. Keep in mind that you may get one perfect, but it may move slightly when you go to adjust the one next to it. You'll have to keep fine tuning as you go down the scale. Eventually you'll have the Gamma that you're wanting. Once that's done, go back to your RGB readings and run the meter. You might have to make some fine adjustments there, but it shouldn't be much. Since you're moving all three colors the same amount when adjusting Gamma, it shouldn't have much of an impact on the RGB readings. At least not enough that some simple fine tuning won't fix.

Excellent thanks! It will be interesting to see how well this works. On these Sharp televisions game mode has the least amount of motion interpolation but it has two point scale adjustment instead of 10 points. So I might get into trouble.
post #3137 of 3436
Next I want to tackle the TV's 3d CMS settings, to correct the color space:



But then I went to look at the numbers in HCFR and saw that is just has absolute values, not relative values..... so I'm not sure which way to adjust each CMS control.

Is there a way to get get relative numbers, instead of absolute numbers?

(This is version 2.1, btw, since the more recent versions don't recognize my Eye1 probe....)



Otherwise my plan is to do the math myself based on the specification of what Rec 709 says.
post #3138 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarnerL View Post


Just wondering Zoyd, were you still going to look at adding a switch to revert back to previous behavior or have you decided not?
I would also love that to be added. Seems like an easy way to calibrate color on my Samsung...
post #3139 of 3436
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

Next I want to tackle the TV's 3d CMS settings, to correct the color space:

Is there a way to get get relative numbers, instead of absolute numbers?

(This is version 2.1, btw, since the more recent versions don't recognize my Eye1 probe....)

version 3 works fine with the i1pro, install the correct driver from the drivers sub-folder. Relative indicators are deltaxy (minimize while viewing bullseye), deltaL and deltaE. Whether your display CMS has RGB or HSL controls it is very easy to learn which direction to move the indicators.
post #3140 of 3436
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarnerL View Post


Just wondering Zoyd, were you still going to look at adding a switch to revert back to previous behavior or have you decided not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

I would also love that to be added. Seems like an easy way to calibrate color on my Samsung...

I've not had any time to work on the software and don't know when I will.
post #3141 of 3436
I have an i1d3 coming soon, and plan to use it to calibrate my LCoS projector with this new HCFR (I've only used the pre-fork version with i1d2 previously). I'm assuming the standard LCD settings in HCFR would be best for this.

I want to make sure I understand the saturation calibration correctly. I don't have a CMS, so the only adjustments I make are with the single saturation control. Previously I've used the AVS 709 disc, and I would run the saturation patterns to set the 'saturation' control to get the best compromise between all points (4 points each primary not including 0%).

In this HCFR, is this correct:

  • Use the GCD 75% luminance patterns (at 25, 50, 75, and 100% saturation).
  • Select something in HCFR that tells it I am measuring the 75% luminance patterns, not 100%.
  • Proceed as normal, measuring all colors, and then adjusting my one 'saturation' control based on the graph HCFR generates to get the best compromise between 25, 50, and 75% saturation points on the graph.
post #3142 of 3436
Can anyone comment on using the equal energy patterns(gamma, windows, gamut) on Spears and Munsil Vol2 for calibration of plasmas?
It does seem like a good idea when you read about it but does it produce good results in practise?

They are designed so the total amount of light being produced by the display is unchanged from pattern to pattern. As the level in the center changes, the concentric bands around the edge change to compensate, keeping the overall light output and power draw constant even on notoriously tricky displays like plasma panels.

These patterns use our own dithering that improves the accuracy of the windows as read by a meter. If they measure slightly differently than the windows on other discs, that is by design. Most pattern generators and calibration discs round their window values to the nearest 8-bit value, but these give better than 11 bit accuracy.

Because each pattern has an equal number of pixels at each level, it gives correct results on displays with difficulties maintaining bright windows without dimming, like plasma panels or projectors with an automatic iris.

Edited by rickardl - 1/29/14 at 2:05am
post #3143 of 3436
I bought Spears and Munsil Vol2 primarily for equal energy patterns, but I achieved better results using APL small patterns of AVS HD 709 Calibration Disc in the end.
post #3144 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytec View Post

I bought Spears and Munsil Vol2 primarily for equal energy patterns, but I achieved better results using APL small patterns of AVS HD 709 Calibration Disc in the end.
Better in terms of perceived picture quality?
post #3145 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

I would also love that to be added. Seems like an easy way to calibrate color on my Samsung...
For my Samsung CMS the method I used was to open a new HCFR window, from which I then took CMS measurements. After that I enabled data editing and went into the CMS sheet and edited the readings so that they reflected the rec709 xy coordinates for primaries and secondaries. Then, based on the actual Y reading for white, I manually edited the Y reading until the target Y was achieved (luminance bar graph on bottom left) for primaries and secondaries. With that done I had an HCFR window open with correct xy coordinates and Y target for may particular display. I disabled data editing and set that window as "reference". In the table at the bottom left of the window, you will then have the target RGB readings for the correct xyY targets.

In the other window I went into live reading mode and put up the primary and secondary colors, using the RGB adjustments in my CMS to get to the RGB targets from the window that I edited. It is a little bit of manual work, but it worked very well.

Hope that helps.
post #3146 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k View Post

For my Samsung CMS the method I used was to open a new HCFR window, from which I then took CMS measurements. After that I enabled data editing and went into the CMS sheet and edited the readings so that they reflected the rec709 xy coordinates for primaries and secondaries. Then, based on the actual Y reading for white, I manually edited the Y reading until the target Y was achieved (luminance bar graph on bottom left) for primaries and secondaries. With that done I had an HCFR window open with correct xy coordinates and Y target for may particular display. I disabled data editing and set that window as "reference". In the table at the bottom left of the window, you will then have the target RGB readings for the correct xyY targets.

In the other window I went into live reading mode and put up the primary and secondary colors, using the RGB adjustments in my CMS to get to the RGB targets from the window that I edited. It is a little bit of manual work, but it worked very well.

Hope that helps.
Thanks, I will give it a try next time! By the way, did you use the rec709 75% setting in HCFR?
post #3147 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

Thanks, I will give it a try next time! By the way, did you use the rec709 75% setting in HCFR?
I used 75% and 100%, and then settled on a combination/average of the best settings for each method which resulted in lowest average dE across all readings/methods.
post #3148 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k View Post

For my Samsung CMS the method I used was to open a new HCFR window, from which I then took CMS measurements. After that I enabled data editing and went into the CMS sheet and edited the readings so that they reflected the rec709 xy coordinates for primaries and secondaries. Then, based on the actual Y reading for white, I manually edited the Y reading until the target Y was achieved (luminance bar graph on bottom left) for primaries and secondaries. With that done I had an HCFR window open with correct xy coordinates and Y target for may particular display. I disabled data editing and set that window as "reference". In the table at the bottom left of the window, you will then have the target RGB readings for the correct xyY targets.

In the other window I went into live reading mode and put up the primary and secondary colors, using the RGB adjustments in my CMS to get to the RGB targets from the window that I edited. It is a little bit of manual work, but it worked very well.

Hope that helps.
Sorry, I am really confused with what exactly you did. Is it possible for you to post screen captures of what you are doing??
post #3149 of 3436
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

version 3 works fine with the i1pro, install the correct driver from the drivers sub-folder. Relative indicators are deltaxy (minimize while viewing bullseye), deltaL and deltaE. Whether your display CMS has RGB or HSL controls it is very easy to learn which direction to move the indicators.

Cool. Clearly user error on my part! biggrin.gif

I'll try again. Obviously I have the right driver(s) since I was able to use version 2....

....so it's likely a case of having not put it in the right folder or something.

EDIT: Just looked at my probe's box. It says Eye 1 Display LT. Maybe that's why!

---

And I'll infer from your response that I'm likely to find version 3 easier to use, in terms of figuring out which adjustments to make in the CMS controls. I could do it with version 2, if I sit there with a print out of what official rec 709 spec and compare values and experiment with which control impacts which value and in what direction, of course, but if I can avoid that trial and error a bit, that's great.
post #3150 of 3436
Zoyd, could you please explain to me how to stop the Continuous Measures feature? I know what it does and how to use it, but once it starts measuring - there doesn't seem to be a way to stop it as my system becomes unreponsive. Even when I use GDI without background - I can't untick the button or stop the process. Is there a hotkey that stops it? ESC doesn't work...
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