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RED 4K 3D laser projector = $10K - Page 20

post #571 of 768
I read the article, thanks. I thought in the commercial theater distribution model, the theater share was 30% and Odemax's share 20%. A commercial theater simply can not exist on a 20% share, that wouldn't come close to covering fix overhead. Even 30% is questionable.

One gets the opinion that the Redray projector is around a year away. Just a gut.
Edited by mark haflich - 12/7/12 at 6:39am
post #572 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I read the article, thanks. I thought in the commercial theater distribution model, the theater share was 30% and Odemax's share 20%$. A commercial theater simply can not exist oin a 20% share, that wouldn't come close to covering fix overhead. Even 30% is questionable.
On e gets the opinion that the Redray projector is around a year away. Just a gut.

Yes, you are correct. The 30% to Odemax is for HT delivery.

How high % does Theatre owners get today from the big Hollywood studio films?
There is also a different breakdown split for the US compared to international markets for the Hollywood studios.
Quote:
Jon Farhat ~Odemax

In the case of Theatrical Delivery, Odemax offers a no bull breakdown.

50% to Channel Owner, 30% to Theater Owner, 20% to Odemax.

Odemax is compatible with existing point-of-sale Box Office ticketing software and services. Theatrical Sales reports are delivered directly to the Channel Owner/Distributor, hourly, daily, and week ending.
Post #237.
post #573 of 768
I thought the article was wrong when it cited 20% to the theater. There is a lot to take in and remember from the Red forum. The Odemax is designed to be very broad in the serrvices it can provide and at this point the least important one for it to focus on is 4K distribution to home theaters. But it will be there at lreast with respect to many independents who are desperate for showings and income. The big studeos I suspect will also sign up with Odemax but I doubt there would be much breakthrpugh in single viewing room distribution other than at present price levels.
post #574 of 768
Exciting times for 4K. The player looks very promising. Too bad HDMI spec has lagged behind. I wonder if the latest DisplayPort spec would have been adequate for higher data-rates. Of course one would need a display to accept DisplayPort...
post #575 of 768
post #576 of 768

Does have anyone have any guess at what  the downloaded movie onto the Redplayer would cost?

post #577 of 768
RED allows the content owner to set the price for each film/video/subscription.
post #578 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by amt View Post

Exciting times for 4K. The player looks very promising. Too bad HDMI spec has lagged behind. I wonder if the latest DisplayPort spec would have been adequate for higher data-rates. Of course one would need a display to accept DisplayPort...

The new generation HDMI spec. (i.e., 1.5?) has been under development for one year now and is expected to be released soon. It will include 4K at higher refresh rates. I did a blog about this for projectorreviews.com back on August 1st (AVS Forum management does not want me to include actual links to PR)..
post #579 of 768
Has the Mirror type been released for the Red laser projector? Is it DLP, LCOS, SXRD?
post #580 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Has the Mirror type been released for the Red laser projector? Is it DLP, LCOS, SXRD?


It's LCOS, RED bought out a LCOS manufacturer. Its a quick(for LCOS) panel, 360hz I think, however with low contrast.
post #581 of 768
Hmmm,how many LCOS manufacture could there be ?
post #582 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Has the Mirror type been released for the Red laser projector? Is it DLP, LCOS, SXRD?


It's LCOS, RED bought out a LCOS manufacturer. Its a quick(for LCOS) panel, 360hz I think, however with low contrast.
Source?
post #583 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Source?

There is no source as it has not been confirmed, but speculated that RED purchased HDI3d. After RED announced there projector HDI3d Disappeared. HDI3d was producing the exact same product. The only difference is red is now getting the 4k panels. The ones they have showed to the public where only the 2k panels from HDI3d.
post #584 of 768
That company claimed it's panels could switch at 1080 times per second (360x per RGB color, displayed sequentially, like DLP). My main concern with them, too, was the native contrast, which they listed as being in the same range as Red's laser. Perhaps there's an inherent trade-off of speed vs contrast with LCoS. That would explain why JVC can get high contrast with their implementation of LCoS, but not fast switching (i.e. 3D lousy with ghosting).
post #585 of 768
What low CR are we talking? I Understand everything is just speculation at this point.
post #586 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

That company claimed it's panels could switch at 1080 times per second (360x per RGB color, displayed sequentially, like DLP). My main concern with them, too, was the native contrast, which they listed as being in the same range as Red's laser. Perhaps there's an inherent trade-off of speed vs contrast with LCoS. That would explain why JVC can get high contrast with their implementation of LCoS, but not fast switching (i.e. 3D lousy with ghosting).

Oh just great, so we get no motion blur, great 3D, and blacks that look like fog....we already get that from DLP, albeit not 4K yet, and for many the LCOS advantage was the black levels over the DLP...so now, at least in this early iteration of 4K, we lose one of the attractive parameters of LCOS relative to DLP frown.gif

post #587 of 768
At out under 2000:1 is what I've read, but as you say, it's all speculation at this point.
post #588 of 768
Don't jump to any conclusions about image quality until the serious reviews come in. I'm sure Red is working on the problems. They want these projectors used in professional environments. I have a wait and see attitude.
post #589 of 768
HDI-3D-TV specs-and-comparison.pdf 369k .pdf file


I did some searching and here is the specs for the HDI 3d 1500:1 Contrast ratio. Red said when they move to the 4k it will be better.
post #590 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Don't jump to any conclusions about image quality until the serious reviews come in. I'm sure Red is working on the problems. They want these projectors used in professional environments. I have a wait and see attitude.

DCI spec for On/Off is very low under 2,000:1 so use in professional enviorments is a lot different then home theater
post #591 of 768
I am pretty sure that the contrast will be similar to the contrast one sees in a good commercial movie theater. That industry does not define contrast as an on/off number and i suspect Red will not be using on/off numbers to get into an advertising war with toy whoops lets call them home theater budget machines $(2.5K to say $8K) claiming on offs between 50,000 and 300,000.

Everything in projector and theater design is one big comrpromise and one can not have it all no matter how much the projector costs. Big light canons have low on offs Peanut whistle light output projectors can have extremely high on offs but no one wants to pay a lot for a low light output machine (say 1000 real lumen machines) and lens quality and other things suffer.


It must be so frustrating for most forum members. A tease of a $10K machine that will easily come out 2 years late at $15K and it won't be perfection. It won't have something that someone wants and there will be a bunch of I passes leaving to one the internal damanation of not finding a perfect projector or one that meets close to all the marks at a price they can afford.

Why not DLP. TI would charge a hugh premium and Red could not meet even a $15K mark.

.
post #592 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I am pretty sure that the contrast will be similar to the contrast one sees in a good commercial movie theater. That industry does not define contrast as an on/off number and i suspect Red will not be using on/off numbers to get into an advertising war with toy whoops lets call them home theater budget machines $(2.5K to say $8K) claiming on offs between 50,000 and 300,000.
Everything in projector and theater design is one big comrpromise and one can not have it all no matter how much the projector costs. Big light canons have low on offs Peanut whistle light output projectors can have extremely high on offs but no one wants to pay a lot for a low light output machine (say 1000 real lumen machines) and lens quality and other things suffer.
It must be so frustrating for most forum members. A tease of a $10K machine that will easily come out 2 years late at $15K and it won't be perfection. It won't have something that someone wants and there will be a bunch of I passes leaving to one the internal damanation of not finding a perfect projector or one that meets close to all the marks at a price they can afford.
Why not DLP. TI would charge a hugh premium and Red could not meet even a $15K mark.
.

Mark -

There is another potential issue to be on the watch for with the Red projector if it turns out they are using a single LCoS chip for 2D, and perhaps two LCoS chips for 3D, as has be implied by some reports. If this is their setup then they must be sequentially providing red-green-blue light from the laser and this can lead to similar color separation issues as with single chip DLP projectors that use a color wheel. The best single chip DLP projectors use 6X color wheels and the projector's DLP (i.e, DMD) chip displays one complete color image, (i.e. with each a red, a green and a blue sub-image) 6 times each 1/60 sec. Thus the DLP chip must operate at 3 x 6 x 60 = 1080Hz and if Red is indeed actually using a single LCoS chip then I suspect they would have a lot of difficulty reaching such a high refresh rate given the more limited response time capabilities inherent with LCoS as compared to DLP. The bottom line is to be on the lookout for rainbow effects with the Red projectors.
post #593 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

It must be so frustrating for most forum members. A tease of a $10K machine that will easily come out 2 years late at $15K and it won't be perfection. It won't have something that someone wants and there will be a bunch of I passes leaving to one the internal damanation of not finding a perfect projector or one that meets close to all the marks at a price they can afford.

Mark, you forgot one important thing about avs forum members. Even if Red or any other manufacturer comes out with a steller 4k projector, avs members will still not be satisfied. They will find something to bitch about. Just look what is now available for less than $4k and what was available 5 to 6 years back. But the complaints are still there. wink.gif
post #594 of 768
These are all reasons I need to see the Red projector first hand. I'm willing to jump on a plane to California, test materials in hand, but it's very unlikely I'll buy it sight unseen.
post #595 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I am pretty sure that the contrast will be similar to the contrast one sees in a good commercial movie theater. That industry does not define contrast as an on/off number and i suspect Red will not be using on/off numbers to get into an advertising war with toy whoops lets call them home theater budget machines $(2.5K to say $8K) claiming on offs between 50,000 and 300,000.
Everything in projector and theater design is one big comrpromise and one can not have it all no matter how much the projector costs. Big light canons have low on offs Peanut whistle light output projectors can have extremely high on offs but no one wants to pay a lot for a low light output machine (say 1000 real lumen machines) and lens quality and other things suffer.
It must be so frustrating for most forum members. A tease of a $10K machine that will easily come out 2 years late at $15K and it won't be perfection. It won't have something that someone wants and there will be a bunch of I passes leaving to one the internal damanation of not finding a perfect projector or one that meets close to all the marks at a price they can afford.
Why not DLP. TI would charge a hugh premium and Red could not meet even a $15K mark.
.

I still think that high o/f contrast is an important aspect for a home theater, if not a commercial one.   I.e., that's about the only thing about my Sony1000ES that I would like to see improved, i.e., a native o/f CR that is up to the JVC's.    The ~ 1200 fully calibrated lumens that it produces is really enough for most HT setups (though it would be nice to have a lamp source that doesn't dim so rapidly).     JVC would just about be there if they went to a 330 watt lamp like Sony, and also delivered a true 4K product.  

 

So I think 'having it all' for </= $15K should be in reach, at least for screen sizes </= ~12 ft or so.   Probably the greatest drag on this coming about is that the market for such is so small.

post #596 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by adude View Post


Mark, you forgot one important thing about avs forum members. Even if Red or any other manufacturer comes out with a steller 4k projector, avs members will still not be satisfied. They will find something to bitch about. Just look what is now available for less than $4k and what was available 5 to 6 years back. But the complaints are still there. wink.gif

 

If you don't want the best, for the least, and want it yesterday...then you're on the wrong forum  biggrin.gif

post #597 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

If you don't want the best, for the least, and want it yesterday...then you're on the wrong forum  biggrin.gif

Haha that's good! smile.gif
post #598 of 768
All the above posts in response to mine are well taken. I bought the server sight unseen and with no news re specific content that will be available for purchase. i might buy the projector sight unseen but not before reviews by trusted reviewers. I doubt we will see the consumer version of the projector before this time next year.
Edited by mark haflich - 12/8/12 at 8:44am
post #599 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I am pretty sure that the contrast will be similar to the contrast one sees in a good commercial movie theater. That industry does not define contrast as an on/off number and i suspect.
Sure it does. SMPTE RP 431-2 "D-Cinema Quality — Reference Projector and Environment" specifies a minimum of 2,000:1 for sequential contrast and 150:1 for Intra-frame (Checkerboard) contrast. Personally, I would consider double those figures as minimums for satisfying home theater performance.
post #600 of 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Sure it does. SMPTE RP 431-2 "D-Cinema Quality — Reference Projector and Environment" specifies a minimum of 2,000:1 for sequential contrast and 150:1 for Intra-frame (Checkerboard) contrast. Personally, I would consider double those figures as minimums for satisfying home theater performance.

Exactly my point, and most every DCI projector, Barco, Christie, NEC is at that minimum, which for most home theater applications is not acceptable and requires modifications with an fixed aperture in the lens path or in the lens itself to increase on/off CR..For a home theater 4,000:1 would be absolute minimum in my opinion. Barco with their introduction of laser illumination is expecting 10,000:1.

Their is a minimum standard even at $15K for a home theater projector 4K or not.
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