Calibrate each source. What does this mean? - Page 2

If you hooked a reference pattern generator up you'd get identical settings for digital inputs, so coping is fine.

The only way you can calibrate each "source" is if the source can produce it's own patterns (using a disc in a player). There is no way to calibrate a cable box or a game console.

On my LG 42LK450, say you calibrate expert1 on the HDMI1 input. If you copy those settings to expert2, the meter will read considerably different values, requiring you to tweak expert2 quite a bit to get it to match expert1. This means when doing day and night modes on my TV on just one input (HDMI1), each expert mode needs its own settings even if in theory you wanted two night modes or two day modes that were identical to one another. So, copying settings on digital inputs may not work in all cases or even copying settings from one picture mode to another on the same digital input. Expert1/2 should be identical but it turns out they are not by quite a significant margin.

Always better to check than just assume digital inputs means same settings for all connected devices that use video levels (or alternatively PC levels).

Picture modes are not the same thing as inputs. Expert2 was likely started life as a night mode, so it's baseline characteristics maybe different.

Inputs should be identical, picture modes almost never are.

All i can say is that there is a slight difference between the two inputs the guy calibrated. He used a AVS disk in the PS3 in both cases.

Probably the difference between intermeter readings.

I could calibrate the same inputs twice and between the display drift and meter consistency I'd come up with numbers that are different by one or two.

Can both settings - HDMI 1, HDMI 2 - be used for all my HDMI inputs? When calibrating one HDMI input, copying settings will be accurate in most cases?

What to do about calibrating or even making proper settings for cable boxes and even OTA broadcast TVs has always been the "big elephant" in the room.

My experience is you can not copy settings made from an HDMI input or an analog input and sort of "hope for the best". It amazes me that there are those who obsess over how calibration must be so exact but then will state that transferring settings to another input is "good enough". On one LCD TV I have which only has a High and Low color temp settings with individual R,G,B white balance, it is all you CAN do. But for more upscale and newer TVs with 10 point IRE for each input it has not panned out well for me.

I have my own method for making better settings for OTA and cable or satellite boxes. And it has worked quite well. Much better than transferring settings made on a totally different input. If I had used transferred settings, B&W movies on TCM and AMC would look horrible with red or green tints. And flesh tones on OTA looked horrible with transferred settings.

So this is an interesting area and no matter what, I'm sure there are those who will defend with vocal resound (and techno-talk) to try and obscure the "Big Elephant".

EDIT: This issue includes the practice of transferring a calibrated HDMI setting to another HDMI setting as on my LG 42LD550. Gray scale had visible and measurable errors when this was done. Also, there is another thread here on AVS that speaks of the differences in decoding from one Blu-ray player to the next. I have 4 Blu-ray players and 3 need there own calibration. Again, visible and measurable errors. I've seen everything from gray scale errors to gamma shifts. So "one setting" may not fit all. The issue to me is that a Blu-ray players used to provide calibration patterns is a consumer electronic device, not a calibration standard. . . and they all deviate to some degree. Likewise, a consumer level TV is just that also.

I repaired and utilized true calibration devices in the aerospace industry (phase angle volt meters for nav systems, etc) and calibrating a consumer TV that is not a laboratory device or scientific instrument is a bit of a stretch. You can try and it will be the best it can. . . maybe. . . depending on the TV. . . who is doing it. . . and the equipment used. Yet there are those who will still obsess. The truth is, there are more variables in program material ans other sources than anything. So you may still end up doing tweaks for a particular viewing. OR just watch it warts and all

You can try it and may luck out. But you still need to check it with some good source material and see the end results. If, like I mentioned in my experience, flesh tones do not look right many times, or colors of familiar natural objects look off, then you know you transferred settings aren't working as expected.

Try finding B&W movies on OTA or cable . . . or turn the Color control done to zero and see if there is any visible tint to grayscale. But even then, with B&W material I have seen that the video source is off at the broadcast site. So you have to view a variety of material. Or just use the transferred settings if you notice no gamma or gray scale shifts.

You have 4 BD players hooked up to one TV? Or do you mean you tested 4 on your TV?

Actually, 4 Blu-ray players and one Toshiba HD-AX2 HD DVD player.

Yes, of course, tested all of them using a calibrations (on the SAME HDMI input) made with first my Sony BDP-S550 and then a Panasonic DMP-BD80. I also have an LG BD530 and BD550. I use the BD550 on my LG TV now and the Sony on my Mitsubishi 46" LCD.

The two LGs , of course, look fine with a cal done using one of them. When I plugged the LG into the HDMI done with the Sony. . .. errors. Same with Panasonic. . . although not as bad, and also off with the Toshiba. I did this quite awhile ago so don't remember which was worst.

On some TVs it appears so. As does each input require it's own settings.

I guess if you have the equipment needed to test the calibration (pattern source/meter/software), it doesn't hurt to check each source used on each input just to be 100% sure. Things should work fine with digital inputs, but that assumes HDMI devices connected output reference signals. My PS3 is a reference BD player in YCbCr 4:4:4 mode with Super White On, so I can reliably use it to calibrate my cable STB as well. I have no way of generating patterns on the STB, so this is the best I can do.

You can't assume your PS3 settings will be accurate or reliable for your cable STB. . . That would be nice, but it would be assuming based on everything I've seen. You can do so, but it's still flying by the seat of your pants. No certainty at all in assuming.

what's the alternative though? I can't generate patterns on the cable STB. All I know is that it uses the RGB colorspace and video levels.

It's a real conundrum. . . isn't it?

As I said, neither the TV or your PS3 are calibration standards. So in the end it is "close enough".

If it makes you fell any better, it doesn't matter because the variance in video sources on OTA, cable or satellite STBs is horrendous. Read some of the threads that have local broadcast engineers in them here on AVS.

This is why I don't take this calibration stuff on consumer level video equipment too seriously. It's consumer level video. . .. Too many variables really. But one can always resort to denial and wishful thinking. . . and faith in the gurus.

So much for "imaging science".

Edit: This is not to say it's not worth obtaining good TV settings whether by calibration equipment or doing a Media Assisted Setting. But you are probably not seeing "reference quality video". . . but close enough.
And, of course, if you have some high end multi thousand dollar projector or home theater equipment, then that is another story. For off the shelf consumer level video equipment in the $400 to even $2,000 range. . .. not so much. Obsessing about accurate video quality on a $400 TV or $200 BD player may be akin to lipstick on a pig. . .. well, maybe an overstatement.

It's not all or nothing though. If I calibrate my PS3 using a BD calibration disc (like AVS), I can at least be sure my TV is optimized for BD playback off the PS3. It should also be useful for upscaled DVDs and possibly Netflix (all from the PS3 of course). TV programming (including movies) from a cable box is not reference material, but DVDs and BDs are. If I cared enough, I could do the same for my Xbox 360 as well. (The PS3, Cable STB, and Xbox 360 are my only sources and I use HDMI for all of them.)

One question remains though, is TV programming on DVDs and BDs reference material or is that only for movies on DVD and BD?

Just one data point but gray scale settings calibrated via PS3 YCbCr on an HDMI1 input transfer perfectly to my fios cable box on HDMI2 (also set to YCbCr). I measure the color temperature of various B/W material on TCM and it's spot on.

Oh, there are more questions than answers.

And it really isn't all or nothing. . .. but a lot of gray areas.

Movies and TV programs certainly start out as adhering to reference standards, but that isn't point. There is no end of signal processing that goes on in the broadcast world from networks to local stations. And that includes Netflix, HuLu, etc. And, yes, your Blu-ray play back from a calibrated PS3 HDMI will be as close as you can get. Anything else will be close enough. The rest is all about bandwidth cost and compromises in the signal chain.

As far as "reference material" . . . what about the high quality HD weekly programs like CSI Miami, Bones, Dancing With The Stars, PBS HD Nature , etc? Some of it is very good, some is over saturated and highly compressed drivel. Case in point, NCIS used to be very good quality. For the past year or so, they have resorted to very muted color saturation and soft focus (aging actors, mood?). On the other hand, shows like the "new" Hawaii Five-O and CIS Miami are so over saturated it makes my eyes hurt. And then you have sports like football and soccer where they obviously use Sony cams with tweaked video levels to impress I guess.

Very good. . . I've done the same. And that didn't work for my LG using another HDMI input. But you still are relying on TCM equipment hopefully being kept up to snuff. I've seen B&W material from green to red tints depending on the source or cable box being used.

best to get a player that does

Panasonic BDT210 is good one (BD player)

I don't copy settings over to different inputs/sources. The only exception was on a few TVs that only had a single RGB white balance common to all inputs.

Late model LG TVs and some others, seem to be unable to use a single calibrated setting for a all HDMI inputs and/or video sources. Even though the experts say digital signal sources should all be the same. . . it doesn't work out that way. At least, that is what I have often found. Mostly because Blu-ray players, cable and satellite boxes may have decoders that are not as good as another or match.

Precisely why you should always use YCbCr output from your source devices when you can, and use the TV to do the decode to RGB. That way you are guaranteed to get identical response from each digital input. Of course it won't fix problems with source material, but that is irrelevant to the discussion.

Even using YCbCr I have seen slight differences. . . and there should not be. Also, depends on the BD players capability.

probably depending on whether you use 4:2:2 mode or 4:4:4 mode

both my Xbox 360 and PS3 use 4:4:4 only, verified with LG's host diagnostics.

No. . . that is not it at all. It makes no difference. There are still errors. BD players sometimes differ a great deal.

And, by the way, the LG TVs will show 4:4:4 in Host Diagnostics a lot of times even when the source is not. I haven' t figured that out yet. I changed the signal source deliberately (4:2:2, 4:4:4, etc) with different sources from Blu-ray and including my HTPC.

As is the case with a lot of this. . . it makes no sense and behaves in a way it should not.

This is not a case of incorrect configuration. Which still gets back to the lack of standardized mode capability between devices like BD players. Some have lots of options, some do not.