Projectors & Input Lag / Gaming / Epson 5010

Nope, it would not help, and might even cause a little more lag, as the projector would then be scaling the resolution back up to 1080p. As good a projector as the 5010 is, there is no way around its significant input lag, and that can rule it out for avid FPS gamers.

I have an 8700UB which is what the 5010 replaces and I have been pretty disappointed by its gaming performance which is what it is used for 95% of the time. The input lag is an issue but I am also dissatisfied with motion on it. Before the 8700 I had an Infocus IN76 DLP and it was a much better pj for gaming. I have had the 8700 for a few months and I am searching for a replacement. I am interested in the Panasonic AE4000 or AE7000. Looking at the lag time measurement numbers I'm feeling an even stronger pull to the AE7000 than I did before. Personally I will never buy an Epson projector again after the number of units I had to RMA before getting an acceptable unit. Even having gotten an acceptable unit the Epson just doesn't fulfill the needs of a dedicated gaming display imo. Granted the 5010 could be totally different but the things I have read point to it being quite similar.

If I could find a sub-$3k DLP 1080p pj that had black levels and similar features to the AE4000 and lens shift then I wouldn't really even have to put much thought into it. Lens shift is the major reason why I'm looking at LCD.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, report back

The Sony hw30 has even lower lag than the Panny 7000, but some of these issues are a "tech choice" problem, hence LCD and LCOS are not as good as DLP at motion (regardless of individual lag times of each unit as lag time and motion resolution are two separate issues).

Unfortunately, DLP's are just better for gaming than LCD when it comes to motion as well as sharpness. Although you may find some newer LCD's slightly better than the 8700ub, but I'm not sure. As you may know already, the lag time and motion issues are separate, so just because a projector has low lag is not an indicator of how smooth the motion will be. Lag time affects how fast the game reacts to your controllers response, and motion is motion resolution and pixel response time.

It sounds like you are a candidate for a two-projector solution, possibly think about keeping the 8700ub for movies, and buying an Optoma hd33 for 2D and 3D gaming.

Unfortunately there really isn't a perfect projector that does both 2D and 3D and gaming perfectly. The Benq w7000 might fit the bill, but then you might not find the 2D and 3D black levels pleasing enough, and its lag time although not nearly as high as the Epsons is still about 50ms (Panny is about 40ms, Sony hw30 is about 35ms or maybe a bit lower).

Right. I'm aware that the two issues are separate which is why I mentioned both as separate issues. I'm also aware that DLP is usually better for motion. I loved the IN76. As a dedicated gaming projector the only things that made me want to ever replace it was upgrading to 1080p and the fact that after a couple of years the lamp started flickering and replacing the lamp did not resolve it.

For me input lag is actually not as much of an issue as motion response. The motion when playing fast action games on the Epson gives me a headache. I also don't like that the graphics turn to mush as soon as you start moving which is what you spend most of your time in these games doing. As long as input lag is not outrageous then I'm alright even when playing online. On the Epson with CFI turned on low, to help improve the motion issue, I measured the input lag at 70ms. For most of the games I play it doesn't seem to be a problem. I have rarely felt a need to disable CFI to improve it. Without CFI the lag is probably closer to 40ms - 50ms which is actually pretty close to what the IN76 produced. It is certainly playable. I did have a friend over playing CoD2 once and he does not regularly game on pj's. He realized there was an input lag fairly quickly into a multiplayer game and he pretty much said it was unplayable for him. I think that is a reflection on what someone is used to more than their skill in the game because I would kick that guys ass in CoD2 any day of the week. Maybe he just wanted an excuse!

Another thing that is not an issue for me is 3D. Again, 95% of the time the unit is used for gaming. I'm not interested in gaming in 3D. I'm also not terribly interested in the 5% of movie time being in 3D. I have actually never seen a movie or a game in 3D. I have never gone to the theater for a 3D movie, I've never seen it at a friends house, I've never checked it out in a store. It just doesn't interest me at all. But the new Epson and Panny have the new LCD panels that are supposed to be faster. I would think they would be better with motion than the old panels. I don't really know for sure but I can get one, try it out, and send it back if I'm not happy. All I know is that the 8700 has been rough for me and I'm pretty much done with it.

So I think the major criteria for me are black levels, sharpness, 1080p, good motion response, reasonable input response, and placement flexibility. It's that last point that makes it hard for me to find the right DLP. Issues that I don't care about are 3D, lumens, anamorphic lens, CFI. My room is not large though it is set up as a dedicated theater room with flat dark walls and a black ceiling. I'm projecting onto an 80" fixed Carada screen from 10ft. and the projector is mounted to the ceiling by a Peerless PRG mount without a pole. At that distance I have to fight the brightness of these LCD light cannons with an ND filter for the first couple of hundred lamp hours. I also need a pj to be able to project that size at that distance and I don't have tall ceilings to accommodate a large offset. That is why lens shift helps so much. The IN76 had a very low offset and I wall mounted at the time. It worked out very well. Most DLP pj's don't come close to matching that offset.

I'm glad to see this thread. I would think there would be a lot more discussion of gaming on these pj's. Most of the time you see people mention they have played a few hours of games on them in the pj's dedicated threads and they say they didn't have many issues. It is very rare to see people talking about buying these as dedicated gaming displays and what their critique is. Reviews pretty much don't mention the issue at all. I read praising reviews and praising comments about the 8700UB and all signs pointed to it being the best projector for the money and a huge upgrade over my IN76. For gaming it doesn't fit the bill for me. I used to use my gaming room a lot but I barely ever use it now and my backlog is growing. Hopefully with a few gamers searching for the right pj I can make sure to replace the 8700 with a pj that is going to get me knocking out the backlog again.

Anyone else thought about Mits HC9000?
Its a bit more expensive but it uses Sony panels. Anyone know the lag input on that? It has a really nice Lens shift as well which I need, thats why I cannot choose a Sony.

Why can't you choose the Sony? They're all awesome for input lag and all have lens shift...

Since I couldn't care less about 3D I think I'm ready to give the W6000 a shot. I will have to make slight changes in my room to accommodate its less forgiving lens shift but I think I can make it work. My biggest worry with the W6000 is that it is going to be too bright in my room. I know the black levels are not as good as the Epsons, and I will miss them, but I was very happy with the black levels of the IN76 and I assume the W6000 would be a nice upgrade over the IN76 with its 5x color wheel and Dark Chip 3 compared to the IN76's 4x and DC2. The things I have read puts the input lag at about 30ms which is a big improvement over the Epson and I think that is even better than the IN76. Apparently motion lag is negligible as seems to be the case with most DLP pj's. I will make sure to be ready to try this pj so that I can make my decision before I put too many hours on the lamp to send it back. Should I decide to go with the W6000 I should be able to cover the cost or more when I sell my Epson with less than 500 hours and a spare lamp.

I need to have my pj a bit higher above the screen. Sony have 65% vertikal LS. Mitsu 100%.

Well my W6000 came in and I have been able to spend some time with it. In the meantime I sent the 8700UB to the Epson repair center. If I am going to sell it I want it to be free of dust blobs.

So, when I set the W6000 up I realized I need every bit of distance available to me to make the w6000 fill the screen due to its less forgiving zoom. That means moving my mount so I just put it on a high shelf for now while I decide what I want to do. When I turned it on I immediately switched it to eco mode. I knew the lumens were going to be high so I didn't even want to bother with full lamp mode. I went ahead and used a combination of calibration discs (AVIA DVD, WOW Disney BD, and AVSHD Calibration disc which is my favorite) to calibrate brightness, contrast, saturation, and color. I also enabled the iris. At this point bright objects looked like they had a glow, black levels looked awful, and really bright scenes were blinding. It was obvious to me that way too much light was on my screen. I got out my ND2 filter and then started my calibration over. This made a huge difference. It really brought the black levels in line and made the image much more comfortable to look at. It may still be a little on the bright side and I do have an ND4 filter but I am certain the ND4 would be far too much. It should only take a couple dozens of hours to bring it to a perfect level with the ND2 filter on. I bet after 500 hours the ND2 filter will not be needed anymore.

At this point I was feeling better but I was noticing other issues. The first is a smell that comes from the pj. I had read a smell comes from it at first but I did not know it would be so strong. It smells like you are cooking with a propane grill. I hope that passes soon. The unit is also much louder than the Epson in three ways. The fan is louder. The Epson is very quiet and I don't expect many pj's to compete, especially a DLP, but this projector is pretty loud for even a DLP imo. The iris is also much louder than the Epson. The Epson does not have a silent iris but the noises they make are different. The Epson makes a subtle noise that sounds similar to a quick spike of hdd activity in a desktop computer. It is easy to become comfortable with. The BenQ makes a mechanical sound and during a quiet scene it can really break your attention. Finally the unit emits a whine at regular intervals. I don't know what it is. I don't think it is broken, as this is also something I have read about, and it isn't terribly loud but it has a pretty high pitch and that is a bit of an issue.

The final thing that was really bothering me was the color. It felt flat and it looked off. Some scenes were popping really well and then all of a sudden the image was flat. At this point I was leaning towards keeping the Epson. I couldn't find where to tweak the colors other than saturation. Finally I was looking online and realized I had to select a user color mode before the color customization became available. Calibrating the colors made all the difference in the world. After I did that the situation went from being an obvious return of the BenQ to a real decision I have to make. Now this thing really pops and I think the color may even be a little better than the 8700UB. The colors definitely have that DLP look that I really like.

It is so important that the W6000 be calibrated. It looks terrible out of the box. I didn't think there was any way it could be changed enough to make it compete with the Epson when I first looked at the picture. But every time I made a good change to the settings it closed the gap by a lot. Now when I consider the sharpness of the W6000 along with the overall picture compared to the Epson I am really impressed. If only the W6000 could match the Epson when it comes to black level. Don't get me wrong. The W6000 has really good blacks but the Epson is amazing in that regard. I am a sucker for amazing black levels as most here are. It leaves me really torn.

The final element I will mention is the motion blur and input lag. When it comes to motion one important thing will make or break this for anyone seriously considering which of these units to get. If you see rainbows the motion in video games will likely be impossible for you to bear. If I spin in a circle in Fallout 3 I can begin to see a tiny hint of rainbow effect. It is actually the first time in all the years I have been using DLP that I have noticed it. It just isn't strong enough to bother me. If it was I could see someone hating FPS gaming on this. If that is not an issue for you then the W6000 is a clear winner here. This is a big deal for me. Motion on the Epson has kept me from enjoying my games for a long time. I am very comfortable gaming on the BenQ. The other thing is input lag. The BenQ is easily the winner in this regard. The input lag is almost undetectable. I have not measured it but it is obvious.

So the question comes down to what I, as someone who uses my pj almost exclusively for gaming, feel is the right compromise between these two projectors. They both have strong pros and strong cons. I really love the black levels on the Epson, it's very quiet, produces a great picture, has a longer lamp life (not to mention the spare), better zoom, and it doesn't stink. The BenQ has better motion, less input lag, a great image after calibration, a more natural picture, and superior sharpness.

Right now I'm leaning very strongly towards the BenQ. Even with the issues I have mentioned it feels great to game on. I just don't feel that way with the Epson. For me that is what matters. The best black level ever seen by anyone won't make up for a unit I don't like gaming on. If I can't game on it it won't get used. This makes going with great black levels over excellent black levels acceptable. Obviously I don't have the 3D units but I think they are similar enough that my opinion would be the same for the 5010 vs the W7000.

Good luck with your search for the right projector!

Hyper Eye, you still liking the w6000 for low input lag gaming and movies? On the fence... Thanks

The Optoma hd33 also makes a nice projector for gaming, and you can get 3d mode as well. The Benq has slightly better blacks because of the IRIS though, but it's not a huge difference really.

Thanks Coderguy. I have gone through 3 refurb hd33's and I liked the picture and gaming feature without any calibration. Just using Cinema mode. The first one got sent back for a blob on screen and the last two had bright/dark corners which bothered me. Bh photo was great and we both decided the refurbs just might not be in my future.

I've considered mostly dlp and not much with other tech such as LCD cause of lack of dlp sharpness. I've considered w6000' w7000' hc 4000' and acer h9500. I thought the w6000 would have much better blacks than the hd33?

3d is cool but mainly want good 2d with some fps gaming.

Don't mean to resurrect this but really curious about what you decided to keep? I am pretty much in the same boat as far as choices go. I have been leaning towards the HD33. 3D is not really important to me but would be a nice added bonus should i choose to buy the glasses. I am just trying to figure out what will be best for my application

I use the Epson 8350 ($1100) for gaming and it seems pretty good. I don't notice much difference in speed from my 8500Ub but it's supposed to have about half the lag that the 8500Ub has.

The reason I got the 8350 .........(My bulb is going on my 8500ub.) because I'm going to be getting the 6010 and that's supposed to be worthless for gaming.

Some have said it isn't real bad, don't game on mine and the tests seem to show it kinda slow. With FI etc. turned off it might not be to bad. Once you get it set up, try some gaming on it and tell us what ya think.