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HDCP and CD/DD/DTS and Datasat/Theta

post #1 of 28
2/15/12 at 4:48pm
Thread Starter 
About 10 days ago I played a CD from my OPPO BDP-95 via HDMI into my Datasat AP20. I use the digital outs from the Datasat into an external DAC.

I was quite surprised to see the DAC reported it was receiving a 48kHz signal even though the Datasat was configured to output 96kHz (and does indeed output 96kHz with all non-HDMI sources).

It was my understanding that non-high-rez sources such as CDs and DVDs with DD/DTS had no encryption tags and were not affected by HDCP, so I started seeking clarification.

I emailed Datasat and they replied they were just following the what the source told them. So I emailed OPPO and they replied:

When using HDMI, HDCP is always engaged due to the HDMI specifications. HDCP is not engaged based on the content being copy protected or not.

I then emailed HDMI and just received the following:

HDMI interface uses HDCP for content protection and all the restrictions come from HDCP adopter licensing agreement (this document can be downloaded directly from DCP LLC website).

Speaking about audio, generic audio shall be down sampling to 48KHz or lower/16bit prior to sending out to any digital interface.

For special audio such as SCD and DVD Audio, it is not allowed to output any audio content to any digital interface no matter how low the down sampling rate is.

So it looks like those who want to use the digital outputs of a Datasat or a Theta are going to have downrezzed data even for CDs unless a workaround is employed.

Meridian is the only company I know that can send full rez audio using non-HDMI connectors because they use their own MHR proprietary encryption system, which is approved by HDMI.

I find HDCP to be very annoying.
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post #2 of 28
2/15/12 at 7:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

About 10 days ago I played a CD from my OPPO BDP-95 via HDMI

So it looks like those who want to use the digital outputs of a Datasat or a Theta are going to have downrezzed data even for CDs unless a workaround is employed.

.

Why? CD is 44/16 and is already below 48/16. What happens if you use a player via coax digital out into the Datasat? Oppo will output 24/192 via coax for the USB input. I must confess though when I heard how much life the Theta Generation VIII brought to 44/16 music, for the first time, I stopped caring about high-rez.
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post #3 of 28
2/15/12 at 7:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

About 10 days ago I played a CD from my OPPO BDP-95 via HDMI into my Datasat AP20. I use the digital outs from the Datasat into an external DAC.

I was quite surprised to see the DAC reported it was receiving a 48kHz signal even though the Datasat was configured to output 96kHz (and does indeed output 96kHz with all non-HDMI sources).

It was my understanding that non-high-rez sources such as CDs and DVDs with DD/DTS had no encryption tags and were not affected by HDCP, so I started seeking clarification.

I emailed Datasat and they replied they were just following the what the source told them. So I emailed OPPO and they replied:

When using HDMI, HDCP is always engaged due to the HDMI specifications. HDCP is not engaged based on the content being copy protected or not.

I then emailed HDMI and just received the following:

HDMI interface uses HDCP for content protection and all the restrictions come from HDCP adopter licensing agreement (this document can be downloaded directly from DCP LLC website).

Speaking about audio, generic audio shall be down sampling to 48KHz or lower/16bit prior to sending out to any digital interface.

For special audio such as SCD and DVD Audio, it is not allowed to output any audio content to any digital interface no matter how low the down sampling rate is.

So it looks like those who want to use the digital outputs of a Datasat or a Theta are going to have downrezzed data even for CDs unless a workaround is employed.

Meridian is the only company I know that can send full rez audio using non-HDMI connectors because they use their own MHR proprietary encryption system, which is approved by HDMI.

I find HDCP to be very annoying.

If - as appears to be the case - all HDMI sources are downsampled. what you need is a coax connection to be deployed for non HDCP restricted high rez sources, such as 96/24 and 192/24 flacs. A minor inconvenience.
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post #4 of 28
2/16/12 at 5:14am
I was thinking this morning about Whitney Houston. None of her stuff is on a high-rez format. Neither is the young Adele even with such a powerful and deeply moving voice. So WTF is the industry protecting? All of the stuff that is profitable is already "in the clear," because it's 44/16.
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post #5 of 28
2/16/12 at 8:21am
Camcorders don't assert HDCP over HDMI. So there is no mandate to turn on HDCP just because you use HDMI. So it seems that for convenience Oppo asserts HDCP all the time. This is their choosing, not record industry's mandate. I suspect that practice is quite widespread as consumers get audio either way so no one is complaining.
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post #6 of 28
2/16/12 at 4:33pm
...So it looks like those who want to use the digital outputs of a Datasat or a Theta are going to have downrezzed data even for CDs...

How can 48 kHz output be considered "downrezzed" when the CD source data rate is 44.1 kHz? What the Datasat should be doing is outputing 44.1 kHz so that your DAC gets the original unadulterated source.
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post #7 of 28
2/16/12 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Camcorders don't assert HDCP over HDMI. So there is no mandate to turn on HDCP just because you use HDMI. So it seems that for convenience Oppo asserts HDCP all the time. This is their choosing, not record industry's mandate. I suspect that practice is quite widespread as consumers get audio either way so no one is complaining.

I have a similar problem with Poineer BluRay players, the 05,09,and 23 models.

They shut off composite and Svideo when using HDMI. As I understand it composite and Svideo are allowed on HDCP.

Why does it matter? Well I have Svideo fed monitors In my racks for quick cueing and also one of my audio analyzer programs has a composite input to display a video image along with it's metering.
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post #8 of 28
2/16/12 at 5:20pm
Amir,

At the moment I'm little too lazy to go look up the HDCP licensing agmt. From your memory, is the following correct "Speaking about audio, generic audio shall be down sampling to 48KHz or lower/16bit prior to sending out to any digital interface. "?

Thanks
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post #9 of 28
2/16/12 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Amir,

At the moment I'm little too lazy to go look up the HDCP licensing agmt. From your memory, is the following correct "Speaking about audio, generic audio shall be down sampling to 48KHz or lower/16bit prior to sending out to any digital interface. "?

Thanks

That is true. Here is the exact language: http://www.digital-cp.com/files/stat...l%20markup.pdf

"CD-Audio Quality or less means a sound quality of 2-channels or less, no greater than 48KHz sample frequency, and no more than 16 bits per sample. "

And later:

To Legacy Digital Audio Outputs. Legacy Digital Audio Outputs shall be
limited to 1.5 times normal speed, unless the pitch is corrected to the pitch at
normal speed. In addition, such outputs shall comply with the following
requirements:

(a) Limitation on Sound Quality. Sound quality of Legacy Digital Audio
Outputs when playing Linear PCM and Packed PCM streams shall be
equivalent to CD-Audio Quality or less. "

Note that this does NOT mean the unit must upsample to 48 Khz. Put another way, if the processor received 44.1 Khz, and is outputting 48 Khz, that is not stipulated by HDCP.

If we can confirm that the Oppo was putting out 44.1 Khz (i.e. no upsampling was enabled) and the processor is still putting out 48 Khz, then that tells me that it is always upsampling to 96 Khz for processing and then downsampling to 48 Khz for output.

GGA, is there a display indicator on the unit that says what the incoming rate is from Oppo? If not, can you double check Oppo to make sure it is not upsampling and ideally, check it with another processor that tells us this info?
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post #10 of 28
2/16/12 at 6:12pm
Thread Starter 
Amir,

My processor, the Datasat AP20, always processes at 96kHz/24bit from what I understand. You can choose the output rate and I have chosen 96kHz.

I had always thought what difference should it make if the processor wants to upsample a 44.1/48/16 source and then output it digitally, but apparently if you use HDMI you cannot upsample and output digitally.

I happen to run across this quote on the Octava site:

HDMI inherently implements HDCP, therefore your display must also be HDCP compatible or the video sources will not be viewable.


Note also the quote I received in the email from HDMI:

Speaking about audio, generic audio shall be down sampling to 48KHz or lower/16bit prior to sending out to any digital interface.

It is a bizarre position for HDMI to take on CD quality audio unless it is just easier to encrypt everything.
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post #11 of 28
2/16/12 at 6:24pm
Thanks GGA. The Octava site is just wrong. Here is the authoritative reference from HDMI organization itself: http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/kb.aspx?c=8#110

"Q. Is HDCP an option to implement over an HDMI connection?
While HDCP is optional in the HDMI specification, nearly every device that is designed to transmit or receive protected content such as movies has incorporated HDCP (e.g. TVs, STBs, A/V recievers). "

And here:

"If the Adopter implements HDCP content protection as set forth in the HDMI Specification, then the royalty rate is further reduced by one cent (US$0.01) per unit sold, for a lowest rate of four cents (US$0.04) per unit."

It is not surprising that they got it wrong. Very few people actually take the time to read this stuff.

This situation is kind of challenging. It seems that the Oppo is asserting HDCP. If it is doing that, then the processor has no choice but also to follow the downsampling rule on output. The multiple sample rate conversions will surely defeat any advantage of outboard DAC.

Does the Datasat let you select 88.1 Khz?
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post #12 of 28
2/17/12 at 8:15am
GGA, are you using the room correction of your AP20?
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post #13 of 28
2/17/12 at 9:21am
Thread Starter 
Amir,

It seems likely that HDMI has brainwashed their customers into making everything HDCP. Probably easier on the programmers too. The amount of people that would complain about this is indeed trivial.

I would be curious if there are any BDPs that do not add HDCP to a CD/DVD over HDMI, but I would probably still keep my Oppo.

As has been pointed out the solution is use coax. It does require another cable and remembering to switch the processor back and forth between coax and HDMI.

I once asked the Datasat engineer if they could internally process at 88.2kHz in order to use integer upsampling. While he thought integer upsampling was a good idea he said the 96kHz was so fully integrated into the Datasat software that changing it would not be easy.

Bulldogger,

I have had the AP20 for over a year. I use the Dirac Live and overall I am pleased with it. I have refrained from posting as I have been waiting for the Bass Management, which I thougt would be released some time ago.
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post #14 of 28
2/17/12 at 9:40am
we are seeing it active on ipads, new apple laptops, it is my guess that for "simplicity sake" ALL new HDMI devices will have HDCP turned on within the next year.

this is just a guess from what we are seeing in the field.
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post #15 of 28
2/17/12 at 10:26am
I hear you guys. One of these days someone will file a class action suit against whoever pushed this lousy standard down our throat and we get something for our grief .

BTW, you are better off using Coax anyway. It will likely have much lower jitter.
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post #16 of 28
2/17/12 at 4:43pm
...I once asked the Datasat engineer if they could internally process at 88.2kHz in order to use integer upsampling. While he thought integer upsampling was a good idea he said the 96kHz was so fully integrated into the Datasat software that changing it would not be easy....

Apparently they are using SRC on the input. If you want to listen to your CD collection, you'd probably be better off just bypassing the unit and feeding your DAC directly.
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post #17 of 28
2/18/12 at 6:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

Apparently they are using SRC on the input. If you want to listen to your CD collection, you'd probably be better off just bypassing the unit and feeding your DAC directly.

That makes no sense. If the Dirac allows you to do bass management (for a 2.2 setup) and room corrections, why would you forgeo all this after spending good money on the processor? You simply need to go coax (or AES/EBU) into the Dirac.
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post #18 of 28
2/18/12 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post


Bulldogger,

I have had the AP20 for over a year. I use the Dirac Live and overall I am pleased with it. I have refrained from posting as I have been waiting for the Bass Management, which I thougt would be released some time ago.

I wasn't asking to get you to comment on the room correct. If you were not using the room correction, then I would advise you to go coax directly into the outboard dac. Going coax into the AP20 will still result in sample rate conversions. You should note that is the same thing that is happening with the Theta Casablanca HD and 44/16, yet owners still find great benefit to using an external dac. I believe Steve Bruzonsky told me there is no difference between the coax and HDMI when routed through the Casablanca.
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post #19 of 28
2/18/12 at 5:21pm
...That makes no sense. If the Dirac allows you to do...

Well, he said that he was apparently getting "downrezzed" data from CD. All I'm suggesting is that if listening to downrezzed data is a concern, bypass the downrezzer! Otherwise, I would agree, if you have all of the signal processing available in the DataSat, you might as well flaunt it, downrezzing or not. The SRC they're using is probably transparent enough to not be a concern, anyway. My Sony digital preamp utilizes synchronous SRC in its signal path, and it never bothered me.
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post #20 of 28
2/18/12 at 11:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I wasn't asking to get you to comment on the room correct. If you were not using the room correction, then I would advise you to go coax directly into the outboard dac. Going coax into the AP20 will still result in sample rate conversions. You should note that is the same thing that is happening with the Theta Casablanca HD and 44/16, yet owners still find great benefit to using an external dac. I believe Steve Bruzonsky told me there is no difference between the coax and HDMI when routed through the Casablanca.

I didn't hear any difference between coax and HDMI using the Marantz UD9004(sold last year) and the Theta Compli Blu (Theta's upgrade of the Oppo
BDP-83).

But using the Bryston BDP-1 music server with USB external hard drives,
there is no HDMI output - I use coax (with BNCs) to the Gen VIII Series 3 DAC, and balanced digital to the CB3 HD for when its used in conjunction with the Gen VIII DAC. And as I've said before the sound is spectactular and easily bests the Compli Blu in redbook. I've downloaded some hi rez stuff from HDTracks, and especially 192-24, WOWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!@@@@@@

So I am bypassing the downrez as for 96-24 and 192-24 I usually simply listen in stereo, as the Gen VIII Series 3 DAC, Theta Citadel 1.5 monoblocks,
and Aerial 9 front left and right are downright formidable and scary real sounding!!@@
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post #21 of 28
3/2/12 at 3:10pm
GGA, have you considered using the USB input to play a 24/96 recording, then using the coax digital out of the 95 into your processor with it applying Dirac live, and lastly outputting the 24/96 into your external dac?
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post #22 of 28
3/5/12 at 10:55am
Thread Starter 
This is on my list of things to do.

Thanks for the suggestion.
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post #23 of 28
3/5/12 at 5:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I hear you guys. One of these days someone will file a class action suit against whoever pushed this lousy standard down our throat and we get something for our grief .

BTW, you are better off using Coax anyway. It will likely have much lower jitter.

You will end up with a $10 coupon for a new HDMI SSP if you buy one!@@
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post #24 of 28
3/5/12 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

You will end up with a $10 coupon for a new HDMI SSP if you buy one!@@

With you as my attorney or without?

@@@
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post #25 of 28
3/5/12 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

With you as my attorney or without?

@@@

I don't handle class actions!!!@@@

My clients actually get something rather than next to nothing!!@@@
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post #26 of 28
3/6/12 at 8:40pm
This thread got me thinkin', and not about class action litigation.

I luv my Bryston BDP-1, using the digital AES/EBU to the CB3 HD, and also using digital BNC coaxial direct to the Gen VIII Series 3 DAC for high rez audio!!!@@ Love it!

But SACD discs ripping is too much a total pain in the butt, from what I've read.

And listening to stereo or multi-channel SACD via HDMI into the CB3 HD, connected via AES/EBU digital to use the Gen VIII for front left and right channels, frankly just doesn't sound that great compared to even redbook with dulled highs and flatter bass.

But I realized that a while back I set up my system so that all HDMI sources do direct into my Lumagen Radiance XE video processor, HDMI 1.3!!! I set up the Radiance menu so that HDMI audio goes out an HDMI output, connected to my CB3 HD. Tonight, I also hooked up coaxial digital from the Radiance to the Gen VIII, playing stereo SACD - and, is my ear/brain deceiving me, it sounds fantastic, like I am getting the "full" 88kHz PCM signal out of the Oppo 95. Can this be? Doesn't the Oppo auto engage downrezzing to 48 kHz any higher rez HDMI audio signal over HDMI?

To test my ear/brain more objectively, I took the coaxial digital cable, one side connected to the Lumagen, now the other side connected to the CB3 HD. Now, even though I use the Gen VIII DAC for front left and right, the SACD sound - sucks again, obviously due to downsampling the 88 kHz audio to 44/16. But the CB3 HD front panel status tells me its receiving 88 kHz hi rez audio from the Lumagen.

So I connect that digital coaxial cable, one side already connected to the Lumagen, now back to the Gen VIII and -- presto, the sound is magic. I am listening to Billy Joel "I Love You Just the Way You Are", which totally describes the musicality of what I am listening to.
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post #27 of 28
3/9/12 at 9:57pm
When my CB3 HD came back April 2011 (paired with my Theta Gen VIII then Series 3 DAC
(up to 96-24), I still had the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC. I hooked up digital coaxial from the CB3 HD digital output and the PS Audio DAC showed 44 kHz (or was it perhaps 48kHz) (my memory ain't what it used to be) on all the blu rays I tried.

Keep in mind my system: Theta CB3 SSP, Extreme DACs, but using digital out card (the old one, new one isn't available yet) AES/EBU digital cable into Theta Gen VIII now Series 3 DAC (up to 192-24). 5.3 system, with front left and right Theta Citadel 1.5 monoblocks, center and surround left and right Theta Enterprise monoblocks, four Aerial Acoustics 9s, one Aerial CC5 center, and three Aerial SW-12 subwoofers. Theta Compli Blu (upgraded Oppo BDP-83) used for this demo as blu ray and music disc transport (although for much music I use a Bryston BDP-1 medial player, having redbook and hi rez audio on USB drives via USB to the Bryston, Bryston coaxial digital out to Gen VIII DAC, Bryston AES/EBU digital out to Gen VIII DAC.)

Last week, I posted the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

I luv my Bryston BDP-1, using the digital AES/EBU to the CB3 HD, and also using digital BNC coaxial direct to the Gen VIII Series 3 DAC for high rez audio!!!@@ Love it! But SACD discs ripping is too much a total pain in the butt, from what I've read. And listening to stereo or multi-channel SACD via HDMI into the CB3 HD, connected via AES/EBU digital to use the Gen VIII for front left and right channels, frankly just doesn't sound that great compared to even redbook with dulled highs and flatter bass. But I realized that a while back I set up my system so that all HDMI sources do direct into my Lumagen Radiance XE video processor, HDMI 1.3!!! I set up the Radiance menu so that HDMI audio goes out an HDMI output, connected to my CB3 HD. Tonight, I also hooked up coaxial digital from the Radiance to the Gen VIII, playing stereo SACD - and, is my ear/brain deceiving me, it sounds fantastic, like I am getting the "full" 88kHz PCM signal out of the Oppo 95. Can this be? Doesn't the Oppo auto engage downrezzing to 48 kHz any higher rez HDMI audio signal over HDMI? To test my ear/brain more objectively, I took the coaxial digital cable, one side connected to the Lumagen, now the other side connected to the CB3 HD. Now, even though I use the Gen VIII DAC for front left and right, the SACD sound - sucks again, obviously due to downsampling the 88 kHz audio to 44/16. But the CB3 HD front panel status tells me its receiving 88 kHz hi rez audio from the Lumagen. So I connect that digital coaxial cable, one side already connected to the Lumagen, now back to the Gen VIII and -- presto, the sound is magic. I am listening to Billy Joel "I Love You Just the Way You Are", which totally describes the musicality of what I am listening to.



Now I am again hooking up the digital coaxial from the Lumagen Radiance XE to the CB3 HD, so I can check the front panel of the CB3 HD and with its status display find out the
resolution of the audio part of the blu ray signal that its receiving.

First up, some Neil Young blu ray, which has stereo 96-24 and 192-24 tracks. Over HDMI, status display registers 192.0. Switch to digital coaxial, status is 96.0, but there is no audio at all,though the blue lock light is on the display showing that the CB3 HD is receiving signal over the digital coaxial cable.

Next, the Baraka blu ray, multi-channel track hi rez, over HDMI again 192.0, and over digital coaxial again 96.0 with blue lock light on but no sound.

Next, the Avatar blu ray, multi-channel hi rez, over HDMI again 192.0, and over digital coaxial again 96.0 with blue lock light on but no sound. When I switched to Dolby Digital 5.0 track, over coaxial, I get 48.0 two channel sound with the display showing Dolby Digital +PL2MV meaning that the CB3 HD is functioning as I have set it to do, expanding two channel Dolby Digital to multi-channel Dolby Digital.

Next, Stevie Wonder Live At Last blu ray, multi-channel hi rez, over HDMI again 192.0, and over digital coaxial again 96.0 with blue lock light on but no sound. Now switch to the stereo track, over HDMI shows 48.0, and over digital coaxial also 48.0 and with sound .

Next, The Police Certificable blu ray, multi-channel hi rez, over HDMI again 192.0, and over digital coaxial again 96.0 with blue lock light on but no sound. Now switch to the hi rez stereo track, over HDMI shows 192.0, and over digital coaxial 96.0 but no sound .

Next, Eric Clapton Slowhand DSD (SACD) disc. Stereo track, over HDMI, 88.2. Over digital coaxial, also 88.2 and there is sound! Same findings playing the multi-channel DSD track.

Next, The Alan Parsons Project I Robot, a HDAD, with only one stereo MLP 192-24 track!!!@@@ HDMI shows 192.0. Digital coaxial shows 96.0, with sound.

Next, from the Doors Perception set, The Doors album. Stereo MLP 96k (stereo) track shows 96.0 for HDMI and also for digital coaxial with audio. MLP 96k track (multi-channel) shows
96.0 for HDMI and also for digital coaxial with audio.

So what have we learned from the above exercise?

Obviously every source I played that had blu ray audio tracks, any audio rez above 48k resulted in no sound over digital coaxial cable - gee, that sounds like the Lumagen Radiance XE is certainly in HDMI license compliance, meaning that blu ray discs are encrypted with HDCP copy protection, and the Lumagen outputs with copy protection silence when a blu ray source is input to the Lumagen via HDMI but then output from the Lumagen over digital coaxial.

On the other hand, for DSD (SACD), DVD-Audio, HDAD hi rez audio, which do not have blu ray HDCP encryption,generally the hi rez audio signal, although input to the Lumagen by HDMI, continues to maintain its hi rez audio whether output from the Lumagen to the CB3 HD by HDMI or digital coaxial.

What does this all mean? Easy. That soon when Theta has the new digital out card, I would think they will continue to be compliant with the HDMI license, and the outcoming digital signal over HDMI will pass on any blu ray HDCP copy protection, thus downrezzing to 48-16 any blu ray audio of higher resolution (which stlll sounds fantastic using the Gen VIII and it said that the source material for blu rays is no better than 48-24 anyway.

However, let us pray that Theta is not stuck with a third party vendor (such as Momentum Data Systems, manufacturer of the HDMI board) which programs the software the easy way, by simply having HDCP copy protection for every source, whether blu ray, DSD (SACD), DVD-Audio, HDAD that is played over HDMI into the CB3.
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post #28 of 28
3/9/12 at 10:20pm
I just emailed the above info, along with the following preface, to David Reich, President, and John Baloff, Tech Support, Theta Digital:

Dave and John, my findings (see below) are that the current CB3 HD, when it receives via HDMI a higher audio resolution that 48 kHz (I assume 48-16), that the audio resolution coming out fo the digital out card is downrezzed to 48 kHz (again, I assume 48-16).

But my findings show that if the source is SACD, DVD-Audio or HDAD, all higher audio rez than 48-16, that the HDMI board, and hopefully the new digital out card, may permit that audio to go full rez out the new digital out card to the Gen VIII Series 3 DAC. This will occur only if Theta does not do the lazy software programming that many companies
and hardware/software vendors do. Blu ray masters are inherently 48 kHz, so even though blu ray discs may output audio at up to 192 kHz, blu rays probably won't be nearly as negatively affected soundwise as SACD, DVD-Audio, DHAD discs.

And of course, I now have the Bryston BDP-1 media player, connected via digital AES/EBU to the CB3 HD, and also connected via digital coaxial BNC to BNC from Bryston to Gen VIII Series 3 DAC. The Bryston will play PCM everything up to 192-24 and sounds marvelous.

I appreciate that with Dirac Live, the upcoming CB3 HD upgrade most probably will have new DSP with 96-24 processing (vs the current 48 kHz processing). So please, please ensure that the CB3 HD upgrade coming later this year will process all audio received by HDMI or other digital connection at its native resolution but with higher than 96-24 we appreciate downrezzed to 96-24. This will give folks incentive to pop big bucks to buy more Theta Gen VIII Dacs from Theta Digital.

See my just completed testing below:

(I then continue with the post directly above this one.)
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