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Poll: Best PQ among GPU vendors - Page 2

post #31 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by xfett View Post

In my basement I have an all purpose 42" Panny Plasma that is used for an XBOX, PS3, etc.. well I built a second HTPC so my kids could watch movies from my server and get on the web. Well with the Nvidia card black text on a white backgroud was blury and not as sharp. Everything else was fine.

Gotcha. So another vote for no difference for movies/tv.
post #32 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Gotcha. So another vote for no difference for movies/tv.

YUP no diff at all
post #33 of 112
I can't tell the difference.
post #34 of 112
I can't tell the difference between chips. Now what really does make a difference (to me anyway) is the brand of HDMI cable used to connect it all up. Oh yeah, and speaker wire too.
post #35 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I can't tell the difference.

Was your vote for AMD/ATI a mistake then?
post #36 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

Was your vote for AMD/ATI a mistake then?

Good call. I hadn't even clicked to see who voted for what.
post #37 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by idividebyzero View Post

htpc's are not dvd players, there is no major processing going on like upscaling, its mostly a raw image.

Huh?

Most people use DXVA which is hardware scaling done in the GPU.


Quote:
Every major piece of post processing that I've seen make a difference has been handled entirely by software, the players themselves, the video card seems to do absolutely nothing.

Yeah, ok. The shaders are usually tasked with post-processing (except in the case of pure CPU bound post-processing)... so yes... hardware requires software to work. :P
post #38 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

Funny. You created this thread, and in the first post you ask about quality when playing 1080p content.

Yeah, unfortunately, that was Assassin's requirement. This poll was his suggestion, as well.

His argument is that 1080p video is the only thing that matters, and he doesn't see a difference between vendors at 1080p... conveniently skipping other types of video that are very common in HTPCs. I do see the differences, so here we are.



Quote:
You still seem to ignore the main point. You're obviously very much biased, but swallow the AMD propaganda for a minute and read the important lines.

I swallow the propaganda because I've tested all 3 major vendors (and actually Via Chrome along the way too.) I've A/B'ed with people who could care less, and they always gravitate to the AMD picture... even with all post-processing turned off. My wife is one of those that doesn't care if something is HD or not... and even she says the AMD post-processed video is better. When my wife asks why is the screen fuzzy, and flat compared to AMD's post-processed picture... I gotta go with the WAF on this one.


Quote:
Its all just configuration! All vendors have very similar processing, you just have to configure it the way you like it

Agreed... but AMD get you going right away, and with their EVP feature keep you from over-taxing the GPU if you go overboard with the settings. I think having people turn off all post-processing, which is a common suggestion here on this forum, isn't horrible advice... but it can be misleading advice that this is "ideal".
post #39 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Yeah, unfortunately, that was Assassin's requirement. This poll was his suggestion, as well.

His argument is that 1080p video is the only thing that matters, and he doesn't see a difference between vendors at 1080p... conveniently skipping other types of video that are very common in HTPCs. I do see the differences, so here we are.

There you go again not telling the truth. Aren't you the one that accused me of being dishonest?

Please point to me where I have said this in even once in the 7,903 posts I have made on AVS.

I am convinced that despite all of these well respected forum members unequivocally stating that there is no difference you just refuse to admit that most people just don't see the difference and that we are the ones doing it all wrong.

Just don't ever call me dishonest again.
post #40 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Just to clarify the poll and thus this thread was actually my idea. It stemmed from a disagreement in another thread where puwaha basically called me dishonest by accusing me of lying (i.e. by me sharing my opinions and experience with others on this issue) to people that Intel was no different than ATI or NVidia for HTPC picture quality...

Lying? What the hell? I asked you to be honest in your HQV evaluations if you did them. I know you have a vested interest here to be proven "right" in your suggestions and in your commercial HTPC offerings. I asked you to do HQV evaluations because you will not believe that professional reviewers consistently find the AMD GPUs with the better overall picture quality.

The wording of the poll was your suggestion, which was loaded in your favor to begin with. You know for a fact that 1080p isn't the only video format that matters. AMD excels at providing better PQ throughout the gamut of video types.
post #41 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

I can't tell the difference between chips. Now what really does make a difference (to me anyway) is the brand of HDMI cable used to connect it all up. Oh yeah, and speaker wire too.

Yep... there's no value to frame-interpolation, right? We should all just live with judder?

There's no difference between 720p and 1080p, right? The eyes can't resolve that level of detail.

There's no difference between DTS and AC3, right? The speakers can't respond fast enough.

I've heard all those arguments before.... roll your eyes indeed.
post #42 of 112
"Loaded" in "my favor"? Does anyone else seem to think this? Please chime in if you do. You continue to seem to think that I actually care who "wins". Like Intel is my son or something. A "vested interest"? Give me a break. I could care less. As I have stated I have recommended Intel over ATI long before Llano and long before I was helping to sell custom HTPCs.

You again made an accusation against me and I have asked you to point to even 1 post where I have said this. You also did in effect call me dishonest which I truly do NOT appreciate or condone --- even in a public forum. That I somehow am out to lie and deceive people but spreading this myth that Intel and NVidia are ***gasp*** not that much different and probably about equal to your beloved ATI.

I will let the forum decide.

In referencing my previous comments that I had compared the 3 vendors...
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Honestly Assassin... the HQV disc is $25. Since you always have different model GPUs to compare with your assorted builds, you should do an honest assessment... notice I said honest.

Then you expanded on your comments...
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

I want you to honestly evaluate the features of your favorite video cards with HQV personally. I want you to be honest about it because you have a vested interest in promoting your HTPCs which are largely built on Intel IGP. While Intel might be "good enough"... it's certainly not the best.

A moderately powerful AMD discrete GPU will get you the best of everything that modern GPUS can offer, and get you the best measured PQ.

In my opinion, offering "good enough" suggestions for video cards is doing a disservice to the HTPC community. Unless someone is on a very strict budget, IGP should be avoided.

When you accused me of not knowing that there was more to HTPC than 1080p my response was simple because it was another ridiculous accusation...
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Of course.

As far as Puwaha I am done having a conversation with you. Its obvious you are a blind ATI fanboy and despite a pretty convincing poll and AVS heavyweights/regulars like fitbrit, idividebyzero, Nevcairiel, olyteddy, Shark007, steelman1991, SUBCOB, TheTinkerer, Tony_Montana, Tulli, vladd, xfett, xzener, Darin, Sammy2, Zon2020 and others chiming we are still arguing.

Seems pointless at this point. I think those that have wanted to voice their opinion have spoken up. Those that read this thread now and in the future can make their own opinion. I hope that unlike the OP they will actually listen to these voices that have spoken.

Signing off this thread and Puwaha.
post #43 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

There you go again not telling the truth. Aren't you the one that accused me of being dishonest?

Please show me one of your posts where you ask me for "proof" and don't throw in the 1080p qualifier in there.

Quote:
Just don't ever call me dishonest again.

My god, you are over-reacting. Not once did I say you were dishonest.

I asked you to perform HQV tests and be honest about your findings if you discovered they don't jive with your opinions. I just want you to own up to it if you are wrong. You kept asking for objective proof, but wouldn't accept professional reviews as objective proof. So the only proof you would accept is if you do the HQV tests yourself.
post #44 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Signing off this thread and Puwaha.

Ah good. I've worn you down.
post #45 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Please point to me where I have said this in even once in the 7,903 posts I have made on AVS.

And since you asked for it...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post21607335

Quote:
Completely disagree. No idea how any of that is relevant for HTPC?

Show me some screenshots --- any screenshots --- that ATI is objectively better than the others.

And as demonstrated here and in numerous other ATI threads on AVS the ATI drivers are among the worst drivers for bugginess and reliability for HTPC and HDTV. I don't care what ATI/NVidia/Intel fanboys purport to be the best if I can't use the damn hardware because of horrible drivers.

There simply is no noticeable difference in PQ for Intel vs ATI vs NVidia for 1080p HD Video.

Notice the 1080p qualifier?

And then again in the same thread...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post21611810
Quote:
For 1080p? Show me.

Pretty blatant what you are aiming to prove on that one.


And then again in the same thread...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21645988
Quote:
Again, do a google search for ATI vs NVidia (vs Intel) comparison for 1080p with real world users and you will see that in the real world many people just can't tell a difference.

Notice the 1080p qualifier there again? What am I supposed to think?


And then again in the same thread...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21650371
Quote:
ATI, NVidia and Intel iGPU all roughly have the same PQ in regards to 1080p playback. Period. Point blank. Simple.

I'm noticing a trend here.

Same post... you qualify it again...

Quote:
Why don't YOU do a comparison of all the different offerings. As I have said I have already done this and done a blind A/B comparison with my home theater for typical 1080p. No difference for 1080p.


And then finally... the whole genesis of this awesome thread...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21650669
Quote:
Here is an idea. Post a thread and poll in the main forum area. Make it simple and unbiased.

Which is better for standard 1080p for HTPC (in alphabetical order)?


So... ?
post #46 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

There's no difference between DTS and AC3, right? The speakers can't respond fast enough.

I've heard all those arguments before.... roll your eyes indeed.

Is that really a claim?
post #47 of 112
Yes. In 7,000+ posts I have used the term 1080p at least a few times when discussing HTPC. Great search skills you have there. In fact, I have used 1080p 121 times --- actually I thought it would be more.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/searc...rchid=21109539

Great insight once again. Please direct your ridiculous accusations elsewhere.
post #48 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Is that really a claim?

I don't think so, LOL.... I was being a little facetious there.
post #49 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Yes. In 7,000+ posts I have used the term 1080p at least a few times when discussing HTPC. Great search skills you have there. In fact, I have used 1080p 121 times --- actually I thought it would be more.

Assassin, you ask for proof, and when I show you proof, you do a fine dance around it. Way to go.


Quote:
Great insight once again. Please direct your ridiculous accusations elsewhere.

So... did you use the 1080p qualifier or not? Maybe I misinterpreted your statements? Feel free to correct me.
post #50 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Assassin, you ask for proof, and when I show you proof, you do a fine dance around it. Way to go.

So... did you use the 1080p qualifier or not? Maybe I misinterpreted your statements? Feel free to correct me.

Just stop man. Drop it. You are making an ass out of yourself now.

I am done and will not respond. So make whatever accusation you want. You will anyway.
post #51 of 112
Thread Starter 
Yes, run. You will never admit to being wrong.
post #52 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

There's no difference between 720p and 1080p, right? The eyes can't resolve that level of detail.

You keep saying this but you are missing a very important qualifier: The eyes can't resolve that level of detail beyond a certain distance to screen size ratio. That ratio will vary depending on the person's eyesight.
post #53 of 112
I honestly don't see the point of this thread...its like we are on tomshardware
post #54 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by xfett View Post

In my basement I have an all purpose 42" Panny Plasma that is used for an XBOX, PS3, etc.. well I built a second HTPC so my kids could watch movies from my server and get on the web. Well with the Nvidia card black text on a white backgroud was blury and not as sharp. Everything else was fine.

I doubt that's the gpu. Which player were you using?

Oh and if the poll was asking me which I would buy right now, it would be the i3's. Love that they can play 1080ps just fine and I think they are good on 23.976.
post #55 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

You keep saying this but you are missing a very important qualifier: The eyes can't resolve that level of detail beyond a certain distance to screen size ratio. That ratio will vary depending on the person's eyesight.

Bingo!

So, when someone makes a blanket statement that there is no difference in GPU output, that is obviously their opinion... they are certainly welcome to it. But if someone can tell the difference, we shouldn't tell them their opinion is wrong with a self-important attitude.
post #56 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I honestly don't see the point of this thread...its like we are on tomshardware

I agree. It's an unfortunate spill-over from another thread, that we really should have left contained there.
post #57 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Bingo!

So, when someone makes a blanket statement that there is no difference in GPU output, that is obviously their opinion... they are certainly welcome to it.

You are making a jump with the comparison. Just because there is a qualifier on the 720p/1080p argument does not mean that the GPU output of video cards differ in quality. I stated from the very start that the difference in picture quality was due to a person's setup... decoders, display, settings etc (although Nev said it better). And it can make a huge difference. That does not mean that the GPU itself is producing better quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

But if someone can tell the difference, we shouldn't tell them their opinion is wrong with a self-important attitude.

There is a flip side to that coin.
post #58 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

You are making a jump with the comparison. Just because there is a qualifier on the 720p/1080p argument does not mean that the GPU output of video cards differ in quality.

Vladd, I asked you for just one review that showed an Nvidia or Intel card with better HQV scores than an equivalent AMD card.


Did you see this article?

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...nc,2839-5.html

Look at the screenshot examples. There is plenty of difference in the outputs of the different GPU vendors, no matter what the features turned on or off are.


I did it myself in my office... A/B those screenshots with people to see which they prefer. Not a single person I queried prefered the Intel or Nvidia ones. I will readily admit because AMD's screenshots have their Dynamic Contrast feature turned on (among others)... that this is a major contributor to their choice... but the eye is very sensitive to contrast.


Quote:


That does not mean that the GPU itself is producing better quality.

Wait, are we talking about the GPU as a frame-buffer, or the sum of it's parts including software?


Quote:


There is a flip side to that coin.

Touche! But, I bring citations along with my opinions.
post #59 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Vladd, I asked you for just one review that showed an Nvidia or Intel card with better HQV scores than an equivalent AMD card.

And I will give it to you if you can quote me one time where I said that Intel/NVidia were better than AMD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Did you see this article?

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...nc,2839-5.html

No but it is in stark contrast to your argument that AMD is better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Look at the screenshot examples. There is plenty of difference in the outputs of the different GPU vendors, no matter what the features turned on or off are.

Of course there are differences (bolded for emphasis):

Quote:


As far as color space manipulation is concerned, AMD actively changes the color profile of video during playback. Transcoded video is actually unaffected because you don't actually play back the video, which means you aren't sending the data stream to the renderer. Nvidia and Intel default to the color profile of the application. I intentionally leave the manipulation by AMD enabled so you can see the difference.

In what way is that an objective comparison other than to compare out of the box settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

I did it myself in my office... A/B those screenshots with people to see which they prefer. Not a single person I queried prefered the Intel or Nvidia ones. I will readily admit because AMD's screenshots have their Dynamic Contrast feature turned on (among others)... that this is a major contributor to their choice... but the eye is very sensitive to contrast.

Ok, so different settings... I seem to remember mentioning something about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Wait, are we talking about the GPU as a frame-buffer, or the sum of it's parts including software?

Either one. Using the sum of their parts, all three major players can easily match each other with the proper settings.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Puwaha View Post

Touche! But, I bring citations along with my opinions.

So have I. I've even pointed out that the reviewers which you cite specifically state that their results are subjective yet you call it objective proof. If you want objective results, the closest you will get is if you perform a double blind study with a professionally calibrated system (GPU and display). And don't use subjects that think the high contrast displays that they see in Best Buy and WalMart are what the image should look like.

Until then, we will just have to agree to disagree.
post #60 of 112
Oh dear Lord...

You need a Ph.D to keep up with the level of abstract details here...
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