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post #121 of 148
9/28/12 at 9:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

How can you tell if the studs are flexing vs the channel?

If I remember the layout of your space, the unfinished furnace room sits perpendicular to the wall in question. If you can get in there with a flashlight and peer down the backside of the wall while someone beefy shakes the wall like we were doing you might be able to see the studs either moving or standing still unless insulation blocks the view. Actually if the insulation is moving the studs are probably moving.

Worst case is you could cut a fist sized hole in your nice new walls where it is flexing the most, reach in there and grab hold of a stud while someone oscillates the wall. Then you have your answer and can patch the wall.
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post #122 of 148
9/28/12 at 9:58pm
Thread Starter 
I was actually wondering how Dennis could tell based on me pushing on the wall. Easy enough to walk around the back and check, but I'm curious what drywall flexing on channel looks like vs drywall flexing on flexible lumber.
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post #123 of 148
9/29/12 at 5:23am
I think it was how much (amplitude of the wave) we were moving the drywall and how much flex a clips and channel system offers.
My one other reference point.

Click for video:

th_DSCF4271.jpg
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post #124 of 148
9/29/12 at 5:29am
If the wall is not load bearing, that removes the structural concern. Under normal circumstances, a wall with that degree of flex would not be desirable in a playback space. In this case, the interior walls will have a 2x4 framing attached to the interior of the wall, soffits, columns and wood panelling. Those elements will reduce the flex in the wall. The portion of the wall between the mechanical room and the theater will be double stud ... just need to maintain at least a 1/4" to 1/2" gap between the framing of those two walls.
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post #125 of 148
9/29/12 at 8:31am
We use the 5 gallon buckets too. The pneumatic gun has a reverse switch where it sucks up the glue from the bucket and then you can apply it. It isn't the type to use the tubes it is made for a bucket. It is like a pneumatic version of the speed loader. It lets you keep up with the dry wall crew. We will often apply the glue and the dry wall guys keep a normal pace. It wasn't an inexpensive gun. I don't remember but I think it was 3 or 4 hundred dollars and came with different size tips. But, It really saves a lot of time. A worthwhile investment if you use green glue frequently.
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post #126 of 148
9/29/12 at 8:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Under normal circumstances, a wall with that degree of flex would not be desirable in a playback space. In this case, the interior walls will have a 2x4 framing attached to the interior of the wall, soffits, columns and wood panelling. Those elements will reduce the flex in the wall. The portion of the wall between the mechanical room and the theater will be double stud ... just need to maintain at least a 1/4" to 1/2" gap between the framing of those two walls.

To be clear, what degree of flex are you referring to? Big throwing his weight into the wall? Me putting mine into it? Or the punching in the video 2 posts up?

The intent was to see if the drywall could move as a test to make sure it wasn't bound to a stud. Does the amount of force being applied realistically correlate to a soundproofing problem with the room? At best a sub will flap my pant legs. If Big hit me that hard he would knock me out. Is how the wall reacts with 100lbs of force placed on it a fair assessment of how it will react when a sound wave hits it?
Edited by rabident - 5/8/13 at 7:16pm
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post #127 of 148
10/12/12 at 8:48pm
Thread Starter 
My walls move like Big's video when I punch them. My concern was they were too stiff, and Big put his weight into it to demonstrate they weren't. I never got an answer for any of the questions, just that Dennis thinks there is a problem and he can fix it if he finishes the room.

I don't understand why so much work is put into making the walls flexible... spring loaded clips, 25 vs 20 gauge channel, green glue, etc. Ted even says he prefers 24oc studs and/or metal due to the extra flex and that's in the studs themselves. Everything I've read says the flex is good. If flex is a problem solved by stiffening the walls with columns, soffit, woodwork, etc then why put so much effort into making walls & ceiling flexible in the first place? I feel like I paid extra to create a problem that I now need to pay even more to solve.

I also wanted to thank Big for coming out. Dennis didn't have anyone available and I had been talking to Big for a while, so he was able to come through on short notice. Drywall guys move fast and I was really glad to have someone there with me. Instead of dealing with a pesky home owner trying to micro manage them, they felt they were dealing with a professional consultant who presumably was as much an expert in his field as they were in theirs. In short, it made things go a whole lot smoother.
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post #128 of 148
10/14/12 at 4:16am
Flex is a good thing. Flex is a bad thing. It depends on the amount of flex, where the flex occurs and the purpose of the flex (application dependent).

For example, flex in structural walls can be a bad thing...unless the flex was engineered in to protect the structure from impact (think earthquake, high wind loads).

In sound isolation applications, flex will convert acoustic (kinetic) energy into heat...but not all of the acoustic energy. A certain amount of flex is required in constrained layer damping (think green glue between two sheets of dryall). In a clips + channel application, the objective is to allow some degree of flex in the channel, drywall, green glue components. There is a second purpose to this type of construction ... to reduce the amount of flex (or vibration) transferred into the underlying structure (framing). Once you have flex in the framing, you have a few things happening that you'd prefer not occur. One is that flex/vibration is now carried through to the structure allowing sound transmission to occur throughout the structure. A second is if the whole wall is flexing you are then turning the opposite side of the wall into a speaker...somewhat contrary to the original purpose (it's not a perfect world, some of that flex/vibration is going to make it through in any case ... it's the amount that gets through which is key). A secondary issue with 'too much flex' in the wall is simply when the wall deforms under stress, it snaps back into its static state. When it returns, it doesn't necessarily return at the same rate at which the deformation occured. Depending upon the material, this could be a faster or slower rate. Thus the wall is returning a portion of the energy back into the room out of phase and at a differerent frequency. Is this a problem? Answer: "depends". "Depends" meaning just how much energy is returned.

Saying flex is good, is a truthful statement. Saying flex is bad is also a truthful statement. Grabbing onto a statement in a book (or the internet) like "flex is good" and running with it is not the best idea. Not all flex, or all amounts of flex is good. It depends on the amount of flex, where the flex occurs and the purpose of the flex (which is pretty much where I started.)
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post #129 of 148
12/9/12 at 9:51am
Thread Starter 
Some people have asked why no updates. Three things are holding stuff up:
1) The PDF versions of my Signature plans are lacking details that I need to move forward. Dennis is working on final plans.
2) House is still being built, so any work has to be done through the builder with a CO. I can't do any work myself or involve a 3rd party until the house is mine.


Some off topic pics...

New stone. We didn't like how the original stone looked. Builder took it all down for us, helped us select new stone, and they are putting it up now.


His & her shower









Her tub


Happy? Yes. Perfect? No.
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post #130 of 148
12/9/12 at 11:18am
Well, despite the theater not being built to your satisfaction, the rest of the house is looking really nice!!
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post #131 of 148
12/9/12 at 11:44am
+1

Although, I always thought his and hers showers should be........ smaller wink.gif

Or at least have two drains so that it's clear where all the hair that stops them up comes from biggrin.gif
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post #132 of 148
12/9/12 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

+1
Although, I always thought his and hers showers should be........ smaller wink.gif

Or, given the size maybe it is a his and hers and hers and hers shower....biggrin.gif
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post #133 of 148
12/9/12 at 12:02pm
Now we're getting somewhere!
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post #134 of 148
12/15/12 at 6:12pm
Thread Starter 
Here's a shot of the rear porch work. The arched opening is an entryway with an interior door leading under the porch. It's my 200sqft lawnmower room. I was talking to a neighbor and he put his HVAC under the porch, which I thought was a good idea. Too late for me, but maybe useful for someone reading through prior to new construction.

One of the things I regret is not taking a holistic look at the theater as it sits within the house. Most design work by people that hang out on AVS is focused on the room itself and how to deal with issues from a room perspective. i.e. how do you soundproof the room. Big picture view is where can I relocate things so I don't even have to deal with them. It's trivial to move things around on paper and even early stages of construction (with custom builds). I could have moved my HVAC and other mechanical into a concrete bunker, freeing the rest of the basement for livable space and very effectively dealt with the noise at the same time.

Same for things like footfall traffic. Can you put the theater someplace to avoid footfall noise? Rms8 has an nice build going that uses spancrete to put the entire theater in a bunker under the garage. If not, what can be done to treat footfall noise at the source? There's no reason for people to be ripping drywall and gluing it between each joist just after their house is built. That's a workaround for an oversight. It just needs to be addressed upfront.

I also saw Green Glue company makes engineered drywall called SILENTFX. I didn't realize there was an alternative to QuietRock. It's basically 2 layers of drywall with the green glue already sandwiched between. Goes on like a single layer of drywall. I don't know the price, but I think anyone that's been through clips + GG + DD with their builder would appreciate the added simplicity. At that point it becomes clips & channel which most drywall crews are familiar with. No issues with 2 screw lengths and the dangers of using the wrong one (which I think is a real issue with drywall crews paid by the job and therefore going 200mph trying to get done and move on). For DIY, I am sure field assembly drywall (FAD) is cheaper and probably performs better. But if you're going to pay someone, you should factor in how well FAD performs on clips while bound to a stud.

lawnmowerroom.jpg
Edited by rabident - 12/15/12 at 6:56pm
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post #135 of 148
12/15/12 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

I also saw Green Glue company makes engineered drywall called SILENTFX. I didn't realize there was an alternative to QuietRock. It's basically 2 layers of drywall with the green glue already sandwiched between. Goes on like a single layer of drywall. I don't know the price, but I think anyone that's been through clips + GG + DD with their builder would appreciate the added simplicity. At that point it becomes clips & channel which most drywall crews are familiar with. No issues with 2 screw lengths and the dangers of using the wrong one (which I think is a real issue with drywall crews paid by the job and therefore going 200mph trying to get done and move on). For DIY, I am sure field assembly drywall (FAD) is cheaper and probably performs better. But if you're going to pay someone, you should factor in how well FAD performs on clips while bound to a stud.

The house is really coming along nicely. My wife (and I) give you a big "thumbs up" for the exterior stone work.

While this product category may have started with QuietRock, there are a handful of other companies that make alternatives. National Gypsum makes Gold Bond Soundbreak XP and Suppress Products makes Sound Engineered Drywall (SED) to name two. Although both have a viscoelastic constrained dampening layer, even the price of these "off" brands is phenomenally high vs. standard drywall and Green Glue.

As you point out, your contractor would really have to charge a very high finish rate for the two layers of 5/8" and manual application of Green Glue for the two assemblies to be equivalent financially. But since soundproofing is all about mass, two layers of 5/8" with a Green Glue layer in between will always win vs. a single layer of these integrated soundproof products - with the possible exception of QuietRock 545.

I don't recall exactly, but even if you use two layers of the engineered products to get the extra mass, it is my understanding that the measurable difference between two layers of the engineered drywall and two layers of 5/8" with Green Glue is only a couple of STC points at best. Considering the HUGE upcharge of one vs. the other, it's not money well-spent. A local distributor was clearing out 5/8" Suppress drywall in 4x8 sheets at $46 per sheet vs. the typical $75. A 4x8 sheet of standard 5/8" can be had for only about $8. Even factoring in buckets of Green Glue and a professional contractor's time, it is still difficult to justify the huge differential despite the easier installation of a single layer of the engineered product.
Edited by TMcG - 12/16/12 at 3:53am
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post #136 of 148
12/15/12 at 11:44pm
Thread Starter 
How long is a 2" screw? I know I asked that before, but I don't remember the answer. Is 5/8 drywall really 5/8" wide?

Whisper clip specs list 1 5/8" from the peak of the channel ridge to the stud they sit on. At face value with 5/8" drywall resting on top, that would make 2 1/4" distance to the stud. I was using 1 1/4" for the first layer and 2" for the 2nd. Assuming the wrong screw was used, (2" on first layer) wouldn't the 2 1/4" gap mean the screw couldn't make it to the stud? Or is it possible based on tolerances, flex, and the way they slam the screws in that a 2" screw could catch a stud?
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post #137 of 148
12/16/12 at 4:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

How long is a 2" screw? I know I asked that before, but I don't remember the answer. Is 5/8 drywall really 5/8" wide?
Whisper clip specs list 1 5/8" from the peak of the channel ridge to the stud they sit on. At face value with 5/8" drywall resting on top, that would make 2 1/4" distance to the stud. I was using 1 1/4" for the first layer and 2" for the 2nd. Assuming the wrong screw was used, (2" on first layer) wouldn't the 2 1/4" gap mean the screw couldn't make it to the stud? Or is it possible based on tolerances, flex, and the way they slam the screws in that a 2" screw could catch a stud?

Yes, unlike dimensional lumber, screw length and drywall thicknesses are pretty much spot-on. I would think the only way they could catch a stud is if the wrong screw was used (the longer 2") on the first layer and really, really slammed it home. But even then the screw would barely penetrate the stud. Don't get me wrong, it's still a "short circuit" in the assembly, but the chances are low for any kind of solid connection. I would think your bigger concern at that point would be the lack of holding power of the drywall to the channel since the paper would be completely pierced if the screw was really slammed home. The driving power used to drive home those screws shouldn't be even remotely close to flexing the wall. Plus all those guys use the professional screw guns with the clutch that doesn't allow for any screws to be "slammed home".

Do you think you have a number of "short circuit" connections?
Edited by TMcG - 12/16/12 at 4:38am
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post #138 of 148
12/16/12 at 4:27am
Two individual layers of drywall plus green glue is a superior approach when concerned about sloppy installation. The two layer+GG approach is reasonably tolerant of installation errors provided the entire first layer is installed prior to the second layer. When installing the manufactured two layer products you cannot stagger, or overlap, the seams between sheets. The failure to properly seal these seams can lead to a significant reduction in assembly performance.
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post #139 of 148
12/16/12 at 5:43pm
Thread Starter 
Carefully caulking the seams after the drywall crew leaves still sounds a lot easier (and less error prone) than all the rules for DD + GG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Do you think you have a number of "short circuit" connections?

I thought that might be the reason for the reported flex in the framing vs channel, but it doesn't appear possible with the combination of clips & screws I used. Personally I think it's just the clips & channel bottoming out of their designed extension range and the rest of the force being transferred to the framing.
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post #140 of 148
12/16/12 at 6:12pm
Can you still get to the back of that wall? For some reason I'm thinking the adjacent room isn't in drywall.
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post #141 of 148
12/16/12 at 11:56pm
Thread Starter 
There is a section that shares a wall with the 2nd mechanical room. The theater framing is visible from there. I'll try to get a video of it. With enough force you can see the stud twitch from the impact.
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post #142 of 148
12/17/12 at 6:56am
That is now a double wall and doesn't share framing with the theater, the mechanical room is 2 layers 5/8 and green glue.
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post #143 of 148
1/8/13 at 10:34pm
Thread Starter 
What is the best way to patch DD + GG on channel?

The clip layout had an extra row of clips to support the HVAC soffit on the plans. When we went to install, we realized there was no truss at that exact location to put the clip into. Normally it wouldn't matter and I would just install on the next truss, but since this was to support the soffit and the soffit size was a fixed / integral part of the design we needed something exact. So we had to add blocking between the trusses and in the process of putting the blocking in, one nail pierced the HVAC gas suction line that ran through the ceiling. The builder's guy did it, so they're going to fix it, but it means cutting into my nicely double layered drywall.

They said they would minimize the size of the hole, but needed something big enough to get a guy in there with space to work.. The builder suggested adding extra clips & channel to support the section of drywall that needed to be removed. Is that the best way to do it, and how should the edges of the patched drywall be sealed - GG, caulk, or nothing but tape & mud over it?
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post #144 of 148
3/16/13 at 12:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post

Theater equipment room, with electrical on the bottom right. Everything within the theater is surface mount. Not sure if the other side of the wall should have been as well.

electricboxes.jpg

So I'm living in a 1 bedroom apartment with all my stuff stacked to the ceiling for the past 2 years. I eat standing up most of the time because we don't have the space for a table. Nice view though. I got my plotter printer plans from Dennis well after drywall but haven't really been able to lay them out to review. So I took them to work today since we have tables there. Found my answer to the question above. Figured I would update for educational purposes. This was something I agonized over... am I doing it right? It turned into more of a survey.

At the time, no one thought the electrical boxes in the equipment room needed to be surface mounted. Final plans from dennis: should have been surface mounted. I'm not sure what, if anything, I should do about it now. I could care less about sound getting out of the room. It's the noise level within the room that I want as low as possible. My original concern for the equipment room was the 3 large HVAC condensers on the other side of the right wall in the pic. If that noise makes it into the equipment room, I don't want it leaking into the theater. As you can see from the pic, the lower section of that wall is swiss cheese in terms of penetrations.

In other news, my wife decided she wanted a 900lb fridge at the last minute. Kitchen is over the theater. The 12" OC theater trusses that gave me grief with the HVAC ducts ended up saving the day for her. So that worked out well.

Looking forward to moving in and getting started on the theater.
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post #145 of 148
3/16/13 at 5:53am
Hmmm. Good to know. I suppose the "best" way to isolate that room would be double drywall and GG on that side as well. I think that's how a lot of the tests are done. Would it be much trouble to have the cables and boxes surface mounted now, or is the room drywalled already?

I know you guys are beyond an joys to move in. Hope you guys get in there soon!
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post #146 of 148
4/22/13 at 5:51pm
Thread Starter 
We're starting on the pool. Any suggestions for soundproofing the pumps?

There is a 240v / 50amp skimmer heater and a 240v / 40amp jet pump. At the store they built a cover on wheels out of Hardie Shake. It looked ridiculous, but I was surprised how much it reduced the noise. They had the pumps sitting on a concrete floor. I couldn't help but wonder how much better it could get applying some of the soundproofing techniques here. With the HT around 20ft away (through 2 walls), this is probably my largest noise source to contend with. Motivation for soundproofing is to reduce the noise in the pool room while swimming, and to lower the noise level that escapes the room headed towards the HT.

I was thinking possibly build a platform for the pumps to sit on and float that with the U shaped rubber isolators. Or Serinity matt? Then build "room within a room" for the pump house.

Two problems I can see are the pipes are going to be really big penetration and due to pressures involved they can't be "flexibly" connected like you would with HVAC. The other problem is the standard go-to for cheap mass (drywall) may not be the best material due to the water. So I'm wondering if it's worth doing, and if so, how to do it well.
Edited by rabident - 4/22/13 at 6:10pm
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post #147 of 148
4/22/13 at 6:17pm
Don't overlook the fact that what ever you build will need ventilation. Not because of the heater but also heat generated by the pump.

http://www.epd.gov.hk/epd/english/environmentinhk/noise/guide_ref/files/Pump_sys_E-06.pdf
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post #148 of 148
4/22/13 at 6:49pm
You can always use hardiebacker instead of drywall. It will be more expensive, but it won't matter if it gets wet. Also, you could turn the pump so that the pipes are at 90 degrees to wherever they are going. Come out away from the pump far enough to build an enclosure, then turn the pipes and build another enclosure around that. Sort of a duct muffler for your piping. I would think that rubber isolators or feet would be a good idea.
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