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Sealed AV15H build

post #1 of 17
2/18/12 at 9:05am
Thread Starter 
I have the opportunity to obtain an AV15H driver and am contemplating a sealed build. I attempted to plug the values into WinIsd, but got an error msg when I tried to save it. Can someone help me out with modelling this?

I plan on doing 3-3.5 cubes and use an EP4000. In all my research, I've gotten some conflicting info on the amount of power to be used in that sized box.

Just some quick background: I'm currently running a SVS PB10 alongside a Velodyne DPS-12 in about a 2000 cubes sealed room. It gets loud to my ears, but I would like more SPL and deeper extension. I just helped my brother with his Shiva-X in 3.5 cu sealed build and that definitely has deeper extension than I get with my pair. Will I be able to outdo both sub-stages with the AV?

Finally, I have some very potent mains that play down to 25Hz or so (Noussaine measurements, not mfg specs) so can cross at 60 with no problem if need be.

Thanks for any help you can provide.


AV15H - D2 - coils in parallel
Fs: 22Hz
Qms: 4.86
Vas: 197L
Cms: .22mm/N
Mms: 235g
Rms: 6.7kg/s
Xmax: 23mm
Sd: 794sqcm
Qes: .29
Re: .68
Le: .07mH
Z: 1ohm
Bl: 8.8Tm
Pe: 1000W
Qts: .27
1W SPL: 90.7dB
2.83V: 101.3dB
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post #2 of 17
2/18/12 at 9:24am
Right click and "run as administrator". Also set compatibility to windows 98.
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post #3 of 17
2/18/12 at 9:36am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the tip. That helped with me being able to close out the program, but I'm getting a Winisd error message about consistency checks.
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post #4 of 17
2/18/12 at 9:57am
Thread Starter 
Ok, I found wdr file for the driver and used that instead. I'm a complete newbie when it comes to Winisd, but just playing around with it in 3.5 cu with 1000 watts, it hits Xmax at 23 Hz. Not sure how room gain, et al would factor in, but that doesn't get me the extension I want, would it? Can anyone with experience with this driver in a sealed alignment weigh in? Or someone who actually knows what they're doing with Winisd?
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post #5 of 17
2/19/12 at 4:40pm
the av15 models ~3db more output from 30hz down than the shiva, but it has a steeper slope so will require more eq.

as for in room effects, seach for "pressure vessel gain".

i don't know about the svs and velo subs that you mention.
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post #6 of 17
2/19/12 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Ok, I found wdr file for the driver and used that instead. I'm a complete newbie when it comes to Winisd, but just playing around with it in 3.5 cu with 1000 watts, it hits Xmax at 23 Hz. Not sure how room gain, et al would factor in, but that doesn't get me the extension I want, would it? Can anyone with experience with this driver in a sealed alignment weigh in? Or someone who actually knows what they're doing with Winisd?

Are you referring to the "cone excursion" graph? I don't believe this is the graph you need to overly concern yourself about with a sealed build (I had the same thoughts when I built my AV15H system). I believe the amplifier apparent load power graph is the one that would tell you if you're going to run into any issues as it will tell you how much "power" the driver is seeing at X hz with a given amplifier load.

But I could be wrong...
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post #7 of 17
2/19/12 at 5:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the av15 models ~3db more output from 30hz down than the shiva, but it has a steeper slope so will require more eq.

as for in room effects, seach for "pressure vessel gain".

i don't know about the svs and velo subs that you mention.

Thanks for the help. I made a "duh" discovery this weekend and turned off the Dynamic EQ on my receiver. Suddenly I realize that my dual sub setup is plenty for right now and I'll just save up for something bigger and better. The UXL perhaps? If they ever come back in stock.
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post #8 of 17
2/19/12 at 5:07pm
Dumb question, but how did turning Dyn EQ off give you more bass? Usually I have found the opposite, that having Dyn EQ on results in "boomier" bass, especially at lower volumes. Which is why I turn it off, as it drives me nuts. But many like it because they prefer that boominess.
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post #9 of 17
2/19/12 at 5:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Are you referring to the "cone excursion" graph? I don't believe this is the graph you need to overly concern yourself about with a sealed build (I had the same thoughts when I built my AV15H system). I believe the amplifier apparent load power graph is the one that would tell you if you're going to run into any issues as it will tell you how much "power" the driver is seeing at X hz with a given amplifier load.

But I could be wrong...

What does that graph tell you? What would indicate a problem? This is still relative because my brother might swap out the Shiva for the AV if it will yield better performance.
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post #10 of 17
2/19/12 at 5:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Dumb question, but how did turning Dyn EQ off give you more bass? Usually I have found the opposite, that having Dyn EQ on results in "boomier" bass, especially at lower volumes. Which is why I turn it off, as it drives me nuts. But many like it because they prefer that boominess.

I think the problem was that whatever boost it was applying was causing some type of distortion. I was watching the Immortals, which has gobs of LFE. It did not sound great on certain scenes...until I turned dynEQ off.
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post #11 of 17
3/23/12 at 8:08pm
Thread Starter 
Reviving an old thread. I'm decided to move forward with my plans for a build with this driver, after all.

As some circumstances have changed and fundzarlow right now, I will be using the 500w BASH amp. I've played around in Winisd and thought I had settled on 3.5 cubes, which would keep the driver safe with the 17 Hz rolloff of the BASH. That may change depending on what Audyssey does in my room. Right now it applies up to 6 dbs down low with my PB10-NSD + ported Velo setup

My question has to do with the minidsp and L/T. I was reading this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...witz+transform where Bosso gave the rule of thumb of modelling to 75% of Xmax and boosting 6dbs with L/T.

Couple of questions. How do you specify how much boost the L/T will provide? Is it just trial and error with the f and q values?

How small a box should I go with with that power to account for what I will do with the L/T?

I figure that Audyssey will apply less boost if I have already dialed it in beforehand with the minidsp. Is that thinking flawed? Should I be running audyssey first to see the resulting FR and then apply EQ accordingly?

If someone can help with the box recommendations at least, that would be great because I will soon have to provide the measurements to have it built.

Thanks in advance.
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post #12 of 17
3/24/12 at 12:34pm
Thread Starter 
Anyone?
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post #13 of 17
3/24/12 at 3:41pm
Couple of questions. How do you specify how much boost the L/T will provide? Is it just trial and error with the f and q values?

-Not really following this part of your question. Are you talking about trying to get a idea from something like Winisd about what the LT will do to the response? There is a LT speed sheet floating around somewhere on the web where you can input the driver params and also put in an LT circuit and see what happens theoretically.

How small a box should I go with that power to account for what I will do with the L/T?

-Most of the designs and sims I have seen for this driver keep in the range you are referring to. There are other threads around here showing sims with these drivers and what type of power they can take.

I figure that Audyssey will apply less boost if I have already dialed it in beforehand with the minidsp. Is that thinking flawed? Should I be running audyssey first to see the resulting FR and then apply EQ accordingly?

-I personally did not let Audyssey touch my subs after configuring them with the Bassis. I had measured where Aud did bump the low end of my subs and did not want another increase after the Bassis was installed.

If someone can help with the box recommendations at least, that would be great because I will soon have to provide the measurements to have it built.

-For my AV15H's they are in 3.25 with a 6db boost on them. Each one running from a signal channel of a Marathon MA-5050. I believe when Bosso tried the AV's his cabinet was even smaller but by how much I do not know.

Best advice I can give is search for as many of Bosso's threads as you can and read through them to gather some more information. I was lucky enough to have him guide me though setting us the Bassis once I had a close mic reading of my sub(s).

One last piece, the below screen shot shows my before and after with a Bassis with a 6db increase.

James
LL
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post #14 of 17
3/24/12 at 3:51pm
In case you want to see, below is the thread I had when trying to get the LT on my AV's.

James

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ghlight=bassis
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post #15 of 17
3/24/12 at 4:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

Couple of questions. How do you specify how much boost the L/T will provide? Is it just trial and error with the f and q values?

-Not really following this part of your question. Are you talking about trying to get a idea from something like Winisd about what the LT will do to the response? There is a LT speed sheet floating around somewhere on the web where you can input the driver params and also put in an LT circuit and see what happens theoretically.

How small a box should I go with that power to account for what I will do with the L/T?

-Most of the designs and sims I have seen for this driver keep in the range you are referring to. There are other threads around here showing sims with these drivers and what type of power they can take.

I figure that Audyssey will apply less boost if I have already dialed it in beforehand with the minidsp. Is that thinking flawed? Should I be running audyssey first to see the resulting FR and then apply EQ accordingly?

-I personally did not let Audyssey touch my subs after configuring them with the Bassis. I had measured where Aud did bump the low end of my subs and did not want another increase after the Bassis was installed.

If someone can help with the box recommendations at least, that would be great because I will soon have to provide the measurements to have it built.

-For my AV15H's they are in 3.25 with a 6db boost on them. Each one running from a signal channel of a Marathon MA-5050. I believe when Bosso tried the AV's his cabinet was even smaller but by how much I do not know.

Best advice I can give is search for as many of Bosso's threads as you can and read through them to gather some more information. I was lucky enough to have him guide me though setting us the Bassis once I had a close mic reading of my sub(s).

One last piece, the below screen shot shows my before and after with a Bassis with a 6db increase.

James

Thanks for the input. I saw a spreadsheet online, but it looked to be specifying the resistors, etc needed to create your own circuit. I'm assuming that's not the way most people accomplish this anymore? The minidsp has L/T filter iirc. What I was wondering was if there was some way to specify X dbs of boost via L/T or do you have to experiment with the q and f values to figure out what gets you to X dbs.

Ok, I'm getting the impression that I'll just have to wait to get everything hooked up, take measurements and go from there. Winisd doesn't offer as many input variables for the LT as the spreadsheet does, and I don't know yet what options Minidsp does.

I think I might be making it more complicated than it needs to be. Right now I think it boils down to this--how do you not allow Audyssey to adjust the sub? In my room, Aud does really good things with the speaker response and I don't want to lose that. Do I just run it with subs off and then let the minidsp deal with them exclusively?
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post #16 of 17
3/24/12 at 5:37pm
In that LT program you change the F and Q values and that will change the db increase. I have two screen shots below where you can see I changed the Q and the db value changed as an example.

That spread sheet does show the resistor and cap information but that does not matter for what you are trying. Also I do believe that over on the Misidsp page there is a LT program to learn how to build one with that piece of gear.
You are going to need measurements since you may need to change something in the LT programming (per say). I have a screen shot below that shows that I had my close mic, first attempt with the Bassis and then the final one.

As for Audyssey not seeing my subs, I turn off the amp and when it runs it does not see any subs since it gets no response from one.

James
LL
LL
LL
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post #17 of 17
3/24/12 at 6:25pm
Thread Starter 
Ok, now I see it, thanks. Wrt the sub and Audyssey how do you make sure the distance setting is correct, trial and error? From what I understand the distance affects the perceived audio delay.
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