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different design ideas for some high sensitivity monitors.

post #1 of 35
2/21/12 at 1:45am
Thread Starter 
hey guys, so i have been looking around at all the different ideas for some hich sensitivity monitors....

Here are what I have come up with.

Standard 10 or 12 with a horn

then I could do a MTM with these:

http://seas.no/index.php?option=com_...118&Itemid=140

or

http://seas.no/index.php?option=com_...d=72&Itemid=96

and do a high sensitivity tweeter with them or do horns work in MTM setups?

Then the only other option...although tricky to implement is to make some JTR like speakers with coaxial drivers.....

What are the other options for monitors that I am not thinking about though? I have to go with monitors due to space. the drivers i provided would only yield about 92-94db/w from what I understand about the specifications....I am not sure how to translate it to when it is in a box in a room.....
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post #2 of 35
2/21/12 at 1:49am
Thread Starter 
http://seas.no/index.php?option=com_...192&Itemid=188

I would prefer two way for simplicity reasons but I could also use these for mids and then get a 10" for lower frequencies....

Kinda like these Harbeths

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/index.ph...0.1%20domestic

same layout but as high a sensitivity as I can manage
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post #3 of 35
2/21/12 at 8:33am
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1353658

These sound bangin' and pretty high sensitivity. I would recommend doing the custom zilch xover mentioned in there with the selenium d220ti. Box size could be bumped up and cubed off.
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post #4 of 35
2/21/12 at 10:18am
Thread Starter 
my plans for xover is actually to use a minidsp which from my understanding is a better way to go about it.

I also am thinking that with a minidsp i could put a high pass filter on the low end to try and control the xover with my sub better.
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post #5 of 35
2/21/12 at 11:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

hey guys, so i have been looking around at all the different ideas for some hich sensitivity monitors....

Here are what I have come up with.

Standard 10 or 12 with a horn

then I could do a MTM with these:

http://seas.no/index.php?option=com_...118&Itemid=140

or

http://seas.no/index.php?option=com_...d=72&Itemid=96

and do a high sensitivity tweeter with them or do horns work in MTM setups?

Then the only other option...although tricky to implement is to make some JTR like speakers with coaxial drivers.....

What are the other options for monitors that I am not thinking about though? I have to go with monitors due to space. the drivers i provided would only yield about 92-94db/w from what I understand about the specifications....I am not sure how to translate it to when it is in a box in a room.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

http://seas.no/index.php?option=com_...192&Itemid=188

I would prefer two way for simplicity reasons but I could also use these for mids and then get a 10" for lower frequencies....

Kinda like these Harbeths

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/index.ph...0.1%20domestic

same layout but as high a sensitivity as I can manage

There are so many options in there, and they are quite different, that I dunno where to start, so here's a really quick post on what I've seen.

CA26 - way high inductance, only suitable for a 3 way.
W22 - very expensive. You can get a B&C 12TBX100 for the same price.

What I think are some potentially good options, in no order:
12TBX + SEOS12/DE250 or clone is an almost Abbey (probably better).

Harbeth like: 12TBX or secondhand JBL2206, with B&C 6MD38 and SEAS tweet+WG from Zaph's TMM.

JTRish: B&C 8CX21 plus a pair of 12TBX100, or a less expensive option (12PE32, Beyma 12G40?) as they will only need to do 250Hz or so.

They are all different, and will likely be very good, but it's hard for someone else to armchair design at a distance without knowing what you like or budget etc
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post #6 of 35
2/22/12 at 6:39am
A9, the 8cx21 coax design was what I initially worked off of for my surround build, but wanted to go with a much more budget option. while the B&C is surely a better woofer, Ive been pleasantly impressed with the results of the emminence plus the selenium220ti
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post #7 of 35
2/22/12 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

A9, the 8cx21 coax design was what I initially worked off of for my surround build, but wanted to go with a much more budget option. while the B&C is surely a better woofer, Ive been pleasantly impressed with the results of the emminence plus the selenium220ti

Surrounds are not mains. I've owned a number of Eminence Betas and Selenium CDs (still have 14 or 15 in the shed) and don't like them at all. Go with the B&Cs for mains.
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post #8 of 35
2/22/12 at 11:05am
Thread Starter 
A budget really hasnt been established yet because of the fact that I am not really sure what an appropriate budget would be.

However, I can share with you my goals of the build.

Obviously the fist is sensitivity. I would like to keep it around 95db/w1/1m or higher....however I dont want to go lower than 93db.

I listen to alot of music so Music reproduction is more important to reproduce well but I still want them to be good for movies.

My idea for the monitor with the SEAS exotic driver was for a MTW design with a ribbon tweeter as from my experience mids on top are very good for imaging and soundstage. I am also hopping that I could do a MTW design for a center and have the same inside space but different outer shape....thinner and wider.

I provided the multiple options because of the fact that I did not know which way would be better than another....I have never had horns nor ribbons but I have read so much about the ribbons that I really want to try some....and a horn may not fit in the space I have....it is in a built in entertainment center that was in the house when we moved in....

I am also hesitant about the horns becuase it would be difficult to make a center out of a horn with a different shape to go under a tv better.....but would a MTW center have the same lobbing issues as other designs?

I will look at those other driver that you suggested.

also, what are some good ribbons that want cost me my soul? RAAL and LCY are really pricey. I saw the other ones on parts express but i do not know how good they are.

Edit: I forgot to add that I do not care too much about extension into those lower regions....its always nice....but I prefer the use of a subwoofer so as long as it goes to 60-70hz I am happy.
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post #9 of 35
2/22/12 at 12:45pm
I'd have this tweeter firmly in my sights if I were you: http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=Planar2

dthomas over on TechTalk measured it and it was killer.

You should be able to find a woofer that'll do 60 to 1500hz to match with that and a subwoofer.
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post #10 of 35
2/22/12 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Surrounds are not mains. I've owned a number of Eminence Betas and Selenium CDs (still have 14 or 15 in the shed) and don't like them at all. Go with the B&Cs for mains.

well alrighty then. Why would you have 14-15 if you didnt like them at all? Ever try them with zilch's XO design?
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post #11 of 35
2/22/12 at 11:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

well alrighty then. Why would you have 14-15 if you didnt like them at all? Ever try them with zilch's XO design?

I have a variety of Beta models. Some I was given them as payment from someone that owed me money. It was take them and sell them and make something or take nothing at all. Some were a speculative OB build, but I didn't like them or OB and they have gathered dust since.

Remember too that I have a whole raft of AE, JBL, B&C, Beyma and other drivers with which to compare them, and I find them lacking.

I do not have the same CDs, and no interest in buying them, because I already have an excess beyond what I plan using. I've also not bothered with a passive xover in a decade, so no Zilch xover. I followed the 'copper' build on diyaudio and recall that Zilch didn't think they were much compared to the Ewave variants.
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post #12 of 35
2/23/12 at 12:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

A budget really hasnt been established yet because of the fact that I am not really sure what an appropriate budget would be.

However, I can share with you my goals of the build.

Obviously the fist is sensitivity. I would like to keep it around 95db/w1/1m or higher....however I dont want to go lower than 93db.

Some idea for the 3 LCR units would help. What's your absolute max?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

I listen to alot of music so Music reproduction is more important to reproduce well but I still want them to be good for movies.

If a speaker can do music well, and doesn't give up dynamic range and dynamic contrast then it will also do very well for movies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

My idea for the monitor with the SEAS exotic driver was for a MTW design with a ribbon tweeter as from my experience mids on top are very good for imaging and soundstage. I am also hopping that I could do a MTW design for a center and have the same inside space but different outer shape....thinner and wider.

HE ribbons are tall, so to have a vertical TM, any height limitations for the centre will be determined by that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

I provided the multiple options because of the fact that I did not know which way would be better than another....I have never had horns nor ribbons but I have read so much about the ribbons that I really want to try some....and a horn may not fit in the space I have....it is in a built in entertainment center that was in the house when we moved in....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

I am also hesitant about the horns becuase it would be difficult to make a center out of a horn with a different shape to go under a tv better.....but would a MTW center have the same lobbing issues as other designs?

See above: most suitable WGs will be of a similar height to a HE ribbon, but much wider so making the W placement difficult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

I will look at those other driver that you suggested.

also, what are some good ribbons that want cost me my soul? RAAL and LCY are really pricey. I saw the other ones on parts express but i do not know how good they are.

Also Fountek NeoPro5i. A couple of years ago Penn had a 3 way build with this as HF driver.

The reason I suggested the Zaph WG was that he measured a bunch of no domes and generally found them wanting. Details on his site. If you want them though, take the same pair of B&C drivers and add the NeoPro5i above them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

Edit: I forgot to add that I do not care too much about extension into those lower regions....its always nice....but I prefer the use of a subwoofer so as long as it goes to 60-70hz I am happy.

Still do not skinp and use a smaller driver here. Larger and still of great quality will get you reduced excursion and consequently less distortion where it is really audible.

I have a friend with a PHL based 18/10/6.5/dome active ssytem that can play so loud and clean it is possible to overdo it in a way I've heard only a couple of systems do. It would be terrific in an HT, but he is 100% 2ch music.

After trying lots of 'audiophile' drivers and comparing them to the great pro drivers, I doubt I would ever go back. Audiophile stuff sounds constipated.
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post #13 of 35
2/23/12 at 8:13pm
Thread Starter 
I think I may actually nix the center channel for now due to the fact that I may want to also build some JTR T8 clones or maybe even some T10s. I am curious to hear the difference between the two. For the speakers themselves I was thinking that 1k for the drivers should be enough.

a Beyma TPL-150 and Beyma 6m190 mid will be about $620. I dont know the price of the SEAS but the 6m190 is very attractive when looking at its response curves and is 98db 1w/1m so it is closer to the tpl-150.

I know that sounds like I am willing to spend tons but I just would rather do it right the first time....I am also looking to possibly sell my mustang to finance this.

Also, this miniDSP that is 2x8. is that able to control 4 2-way speakers now? I just noticed it the other day and was curious to how it would work.

also, I am looking to also build both SS amps from pass and some bottleheads in the future. Can both those be piped through the MiniDSP or would it be better to use the miniDSP to figure out the best crossover points and then have a cross made? I may also look at a DCX, it was explained to me today that you can get them for a really good price on ebay.
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post #14 of 35
2/24/12 at 12:06am
Sensitivity differences are academic if you're going active.
The 6MD38 did better on Zaph's tests than the 6MI90.

Not much of a fan of the flat foam surround limited Xmax drivers.
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post #15 of 35
2/24/12 at 12:46am
Thread Starter 
interesting.

How is the quality of Beyma drivers overall anyways? I dont know too much about them and on here most of you guys talk more about B&C and a few others. Never seen much about beyma
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post #16 of 35
2/26/12 at 12:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

interesting.

How is the quality of Beyma drivers overall anyways? I dont know too much about them and on here most of you guys talk more about B&C and a few others. Never seen much about beyma

Very good drivers for the most part, similar in quality and most likely performance to equivalents from the other company. I talk about B&C more because I can get them more easily for a better price, but that was not always the case depending upon what I wanted. I still think the CP380M is one of the nicest CDs I've ever used. They were used at home in some designs and for the last few years as the tweets in my small PA system. I also used the 15G40 in my BG rig which was very similar to the PA mains as I wanted a wide range sound because my carbon fibre basses could provide that if desired.
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post #17 of 35
2/26/12 at 1:38am
if you can wait for a bit, might want to see what erich has in the works.
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post #18 of 35
2/29/12 at 11:22pm
Thread Starter 
Haha, I have no problem waiting to see what is in the works from others. I am only in the planning stages right now and I am a very miticulous person so I may plan this build for a year before I make anything of it....or it will be only a few months depending on finances and what is going on.

I have a set of drivers chosen out at the moment.

Beyma 12b100/R-12" for midbass
Beyma 8Lw30-8" for mid
Fountek Neo pro5i for tweeter

Now, my father-in-law gave me his old JBL 120Ti for now to play with and my wife is throwing a fit due to their size....and the 3 way build was goign to be about 17.5" wide x 27" tall by 19" deep sealed....I know I was talking ported earlier......

Anyways, since she was companing about their size I started to reconsider going with a 2 way horn design since horns have such a large bandwidth....

I also thought of making the 3 way above into a two with just the 12" and ribbon and possibly adding the mid later down the road or just rebuilding the cabinet.....not really sure

For a two way I am assuming it would be better to go with a horn for better crossover options right?
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post #19 of 35
3/1/12 at 5:29am
For monitor size restrictions and given what you've posted already I'd suggest a waveguide loaded 2way with a 10" woofer. I've used the Emjnence Deltalight 10" and found it to be an excellent sounding driver with lower bass extension than just about every pro 10" driver available. Combined with Erich's SEOS 10 guides and a quality compression driver, you'll have a compact monitor capable of dynamics, detail and directivity that you'll be able to enjoy for years. As a monitor system, you will need a sub, but cross that bridge when it comes.
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post #20 of 35
3/1/12 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

For monitor size restrictions and given what you've posted already I'd suggest a waveguide loaded 2way with a 10" woofer. I've used the Emjnence Deltalight 10" and found it to be an excellent sounding driver with lower bass extension than just about every pro 10" driver available. Combined with Erich's SEOS 10 guides and a quality compression driver, you'll have a compact monitor capable of dynamics, detail and directivity that you'll be able to enjoy for years. As a monitor system, you will need a sub, but cross that bridge when it comes.

I like your plan here mayhem. excellent suggestion. what other pro 10's did you test against?
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post #21 of 35
3/1/12 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


I like your plan here mayhem. excellent suggestion. what other pro 10's did you test against?

I didn't because I needed the bass extension.........other. Pro 10's just don't extend that low or those that do sacrifice efficiency.
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post #22 of 35
3/1/12 at 5:58pm
Thread Starter 
I shall keep that in mind. I was looking at the CSS Planar2 horn loaded ribbon with a 10 or 12" midbass driver as well.

What would you guys say is better overall?

Ribbons and horns both are efficient but the horn could let me cross at a lower frequency and that could help with vocals and lobbing.

For a center channel I could also do a WHW layout and if I can cross low enough the lobbing shouldnt be much an issue at all.
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post #23 of 35
3/1/12 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

I shall keep that in mind. I was looking at the CSS Planar2 horn loaded ribbon with a 10 or 12" midbass driver as well.

What would you guys say is better overall?

Ribbons and horns both are efficient but the horn could let me cross at a lower frequency and that could help with vocals and lobbing.

For a center channel I could also do a WHW layout and if I can cross low enough the lobbing shouldnt be much an issue at all.

Ribbons are one of my favorite types of HF drivers.....when used properly by application. You are correct when being concerned about the ability to cross to a 10" woofer. For matching directivity, IMO the CSS is pushing it. I don't see a bright future for this driver as there's no ideal application for it. Evrything is a compromise unless used in a conventional HiFI application and in that realm there's equal performance for a lot less money with other drivers. The Beyma TPL 150 would be the better option.....but PRICEY! In your case, I'd look towards a compression driver OR disregard the laws of diminishing returns and get the Beyma TPLs.
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post #24 of 35
3/1/12 at 7:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

Ribbons are one of my favorite types of HF drivers.....when used properly by application. You are correct when being concerned about the ability to cross to a 10" woofer. For matching directivity, IMO the CSS is pushing it. I don't see a bright future for this driver as there's no ideal application for it. Evrything is a compromise unless used in a conventional HiFI application and in that realm there's equal performance for a lot less money with other drivers. The Beyma TPL 150 would be the better option.....but PRICEY! In your case, I'd look towards a compression driver OR disregard the laws of diminishing returns and get the Beyma TPLs.

Are there measurements of the Planar2 somewhere? Or can we tell just from looking at it that the horn they are using is too darned small to control directivity down to a frequency useful for matching anything other than a 6" or 8"? And would a different horn/waveguide be likely to help?

(another poor TPL150H admirer)
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post #25 of 35
3/1/12 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post


Are there measurements of the Planar2 somewhere? Or can we tell just from looking at it that the horn they are using is too darned small to control directivity down to a frequency useful for matching anything other than a 6" or 8"? And would a different horn/waveguide be likely to help?

(another poor TPL150H admirer)

You got it........vertical is likely the closed door 15 degrees and in the horizontal it's clearly not going to get to 2khz. SEOS just gets there, and it's more than double the width and clearly much deeper. This all assumes the goal is a constant directivity high efficiency speaker. If a nice 8" MT bookshelf is the goal, the Planar2 is your guy.
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post #26 of 35
3/2/12 at 1:41pm
Thread Starter 
I was originally intending to go with the TPL 150. However, I was up late last night....like normal and this horn:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/horns/tractrix350.html

Looks really nice.

the SEOS 12 is also nice looking but with the tractrix has a lower crossover minimum.

Only thing is the tractrix would be harder to do something with a center channel laid out horizontally.

Then again I may be building just a L and R right now because music matters more to me.

using a SVS SCS-01 for center and I am fine continuing with that for now.

I am still keen on the idea though of still going with a MTW 3 way for LCR for tone matching and starting with just the L and R. I may be stubborn but at the same time that could be a "long term" build and do a 2way with the horn and 12" driver at first

OR

2 way with a good ribbon and 12" and add a mid later on....but that is not optimal
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post #27 of 35
3/2/12 at 3:01pm
Here's some measurements: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...3&postcount=61

Doesn't tell us about directivity though. I may be able to convince a guy to let me borrow one for testing.
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post #28 of 35
3/2/12 at 3:31pm
If you are going to get some Fountek Neo pro5i's, Madisound has them for about 72 dollars off normal price at this time.

James
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post #29 of 35
3/2/12 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I may be able to convince a guy to let me borrow one for testing.

Yup! I'm not sure when I'll see him next. But if you have a few weeks.
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post #30 of 35
3/4/12 at 4:14pm
See the monitors I made a few years ago here:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=33199

Greg
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › different design ideas for some high sensitivity monitors.