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100k speakers vs 1k speakers! - Page 3

post #61 of 158
I confess that I do believe that price is related to quality.
post #62 of 158
^^^

it does tend to be that way...
post #63 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I confess that I do believe that price is related to quality.

I think it is up to a point. Quality always depends on your point of reference. Drive a Ferrari, drink a bottle of Caymus, listen to a high end speaker and for those of us with means, nothing else will do. There's no going back to mediocrity...
post #64 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by porsche951 View Post

I think it is up to a point. Quality always depends on your point of reference. Drive a Ferrari, drink a bottle of Caymus, listen to a high end speaker and for those of us with means, nothing else will do. There's no going back to mediocrity...

Yes, up to a point and within limits. Just like I vastly prefer a expensive coffee roast and brand, I prefer speakers that are relatively costly. One cannot get the same quality from $200/pair speakers as one can from $2,000. As has been mentioned, there is a law of diminishing returns.
post #65 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I confess that I do believe that price is related to quality.

Cool. I too think price is related to quality, to a certain point. While the term "you get what you pay for" is usually true, there are alot of cases where "you don't get what you pay for". I think "price difference vs. SQ improvment" acts as a slowly converging ramp function. The gain between budget to mid-tier speakers is greater than the gain from mid-tier to top-tier. The law of diminishing returns should be taken into consideration somewhere in there.
post #66 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Even a moderate amount of room treatment can go a long way. I think my three panels cost about $200. Next to speakers and Audyssey, room treatment made more of an improvement than anything else.

+100. Those that debate their merits, just do it. You'll be glad you did.
post #67 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

The law of diminishing returns should be taken into consideration somewhere in there.

Pretty early on, actually. IME a $100k speaker is to a $5k speaker as a $20k Piaget is to a $500 Citizen. The Piaget gets you a certain amount of bragging rights, and if that's what you need to convince yourself of your manhood, if not the rest of the world, good for you. But it won't keep any better time.
post #68 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Just buy the most expensive speakers you can afford. They will sound at least as good as speakers costing twice as much. This has to be fact because all magazines say that the speakers they just reviewed sound as good as speakers costing two or more times their price.

+1000 I notice that too. I've NEVER read a speaker review that states, "Yes, these speaker's sound quality is pretty much what they're worth"
post #69 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5150zx View Post

+1000 I notice that too. I've NEVER read a speaker review that states, "Yes, these speaker's sound quality is pretty much what they're worth"

Where are the reviews that say "this speaker sounds like speakers that cost half as much"?
post #70 of 158
^^^

those type of reviews tend to aggravate the advertising executives...
post #71 of 158
20 layers of beech, 10 coats of lacquer, & 4 days of polishing do cost some money.
post #72 of 158
^^^

yes...

and while it may be great fun to look down upon those who spend money on aesthetics, it DOES matter to some... i know it does to me... and i'm as objectivist as it comes when it comes to performance...

most of this thread reads along the lines of "look at those idiots spending all that money"... hint: for the most part, they didn't get that money because they are idiots...

some of it has some valuable information about diminishing returns... the posters who aren't choosing to look at it as a "class warfare" issue are making some good contributions...
post #73 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

yes...

and while it may be great fun to look down upon those who spend money on aesthetics, it DOES matter to some... i know it does to me... and i'm as objectivist as it comes when it comes to performance...

most of this thread reads along the lines of "look at those idiots spending all that money"... hint: for the most part, they didn't get that money because they are idiots...

some of it has some valuable information about diminishing returns... the posters who aren't choosing to look at it as a "class warfare" issue are making some good contributions...

Looks should matter, but it shouldn't be any more important than performance. I love great looking speakers, no doubt, but I also realize that at this stage in my life I need to put aesthetics way on the back burner. Might as well put it in a slow-cooker, with my budget.

You're right, some people are lucky when it comes to wealth. While others are destined to poverty(1st world poverty) regardless of their smarts.

I can't blame anyone for wanting to spend $100k on a pair of speakers if they're putting them inside their $1M home. Anything less would seem silly. I try not to look down on peope who spend their earned money on things they want. At the same time, I wish people with more expensive taste would do the same for with smaller budgets. Empathy seems to be the most effective notion.
post #74 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

.

I can't blame anyone for wanting to spend $100k on a pair of speakers if they're putting them inside their $1M home. Anything less would seem silly. I try not to look down on peope who spend their earned money on things they want. At the same time, I wish people with more expensive taste would do the same for with smaller budgets. Empathy seems to be the most effective notion.

Make that their $10M second home. Homes in our neighborhood are $500-800k and there's no way anyone has a $100k pair of speakers, $100k cars yes.
And not all people with f you money are smart, they may have earned it the old fashioned way (inherited).
post #75 of 158
Bill Clinton started jogging near his new home in Chappaqua. But on each run he happened to jog past a hooker standing on the same street corner, day after day.

With some apprehension he would brace himself as he approached her for what was most certainly to follow. "Fifty dollars!" she would cry out from the curb.

"No, Five dollars!", fired back Clinton . This ritual between Bill and the hooker continued for days.

He'd run by and she'd yell, "Fifty dollars!" And he'd yell back,"Five dollars!"

One day however, Hillary decided that she wanted to accompany her husband on his jog!As the jogging couple neared the problematic street corner, Bill realized the "pro" would bark her $50 offer and Hillary would wonder what he'd reallybeen doing on all his past outings. He realized he should have a darn good explanation for the junior Senator.

As they jogged into the turn that would take them past the corner, Bill became even more apprehensive than usual. Sure enough, there was the hooker!

Bill tried to avoid the prostitute's eyes as she watched the pair jog past.

Then, from the sidewalk, the hooker yelled...

See what you get for five bucks?
post #76 of 158
^^ omg.
post #77 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post

Make that their $10M second home. Homes in our neighborhood are $500-800k and there's no way anyone has a $100k pair of speakers, $100k cars yes.
And not all people with f you money are smart, they may have earned it the old fashioned way (inherited).

Ha true. Sorry, I missed some zeros there.
post #78 of 158
after 13k+ posts ya gotta throw humor and analogy into threads...lol..nicely done
post #79 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrEastSide View Post


I've worked for several electronics retailers and speakers probably had the highest markup in the store, usually 70%-80%. We usually paid around $200 dollars for a tower speaker that we would sell for $999.

That's the problem right there.
If people actually knew how much the components cost that went into those $999 speakers they would be shocked.
BOSE comes to mind.
post #80 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by crabra View Post

That's the problem right there.
If people actually knew how much the components cost that went into those $999 speakers they would be shocked.
BOSE comes to mind.

Exactly. There's probably $30 dollars of components in those $1,000 dollar speakers. So even the retailers are getting ripped off at what they pay. Makes $100,000 look even more ridiculous cause there's not anywhere close to that kind of money into the production.
post #81 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrEastSide View Post

From a money stand point, any set of speakers is a huge rip-off. My problem with any speakers over 10k is they're not just a rip-off, they're an astronomical rip-off. A Speaker consists of a wooden cabinet, cone, magnet, voice coil, usually some kind of crossovers, etc... Unless the materials used to make these very few components came from Jupiter or Saturn and are some metal and material not found on earth, it's ridiculous to spend over a few thousand on a set of speakers. That's just my opinion though.

I've worked for several electronics retailers and speakers probably had the highest markup in the store, usually 70%-80%. We usually paid around $200 dollars for a tower speaker that we would sell for $999. I'll bet the markup is even worse on a 100k speaker. I'll bet a speaker that sells for 100k doesn't even cost $1000 dollars to manufacture. As someone mentioned, the inflated price is probably due to the fact that they sell very few of the highest end speaker. But, as someone else also mentioned, if people with that kind of money feel better for having invested 100k in a speaker, more power to them. At the end of the day, nobody is forced to buy any expensive item. I have to say though, even if I could afford it, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a speaker.

Have you considered that speaker manufacturers have to pay for: engineers, facilities, test equipment, r&d, sales people, utilities, hr staff, laborers, machining equipment, accountants, and repairs, just to name a few things? Obviously the cost of just the materials isn't going to sum up to price of one speaker, so you have to build in all the associated costs I just mentioned into the price, and then add in some profit. Scale that back to smaller companies who only sell a couple hundred speakers a year, and you get how the unit cost of the speaker gets so high. You think the engineers at the top companies are getting recruited to come work there on 30k a year salaries? Of course not. To pay for top engineers, you have to charge a lot more per speaker. So while the materials may be considerably less than the msrp of the speaker, you're paying that the company used its expertise to design the best possible speaker it could, and there's a cost associated with that.
post #82 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by intamin View Post

Have you considered that speaker manufacturers have to pay for: engineers, facilities, test equipment, r&d, sales people, utilities, hr staff, laborers, machining equipment, accountants, and repairs, just to name a few things? Obviously the cost of just the materials isn't going to sum up to price of one speaker, so you have to build in all the associated costs I just mentioned into the price, and then add in some profit. Scale that back to smaller companies who only sell a couple hundred speakers a year, and you get how the unit cost of the speaker gets so high. You think the engineers at the top companies are getting recruited to come work there on 30k a year salaries? Of course not. To pay for top engineers, you have to charge a lot more per speaker. So while the materials may be considerably less than the msrp of the speaker, you're paying that the company used its expertise to design the best possible speaker it could, and there's a cost associated with that.

You're absolutely right. But, judging from what I know our company paid at our cost for speakers from Focal, Def Tech, Infinity, Klipsch, just to name a few, I know there's no way any speaker should cost $20,000+. Give me a break! I know they have costs that are also associated with things other than materials, but nothing that warrants selling a speaker for 100k when it likely cost them $1,000-$2,000 dollars to produce. Speaking of engineers, they do need to pay people like that to work at their company, but speaker construction and design hasn't changed THAT drastically in the last 30 years, where they need or should be paying a freaking NASA engineer $200,000 dollars a year to work at their company.

If our company could pay $200 dollars for a speaker that the manufacturer suggested we sell for $999 and they were still making good money off us at $200 dollars, selling a speaker for $20,000+ is clearly the biggest rip-off ever perpetrated on mankind, aside from things like premium power cables that sell for $100+ when in reality it cost a nickel to mass produce in their Chinese sweatshop factory.
post #83 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrEastSide View Post

You're absolutely right. But, judging from what I know our company paid at our cost for speakers from Focal, Def Tech, Infinity, Klipsch, just to name a few, I know there's no way any speaker should cost $20,000+. Give me a break!

If our company could pay $200 dollars for a speaker that the manufacturer suggested we sell for $999 and they were still making good money off us at $200 dollars, selling a speaker for $20,000+ is clearly the biggest rip-off ever perpetrated on mankind.

Let's just use your 20k example, and choose Klipsch (headquartered a couple of miles from my house). Their Palladium's retail for 20k. I would imagine they spent at least several mil in r&d alone between prototypes, custom drivers, paying consultants to help in the visual design, and a few engineers dedicated to the project. Add in a marketing campaign, the distribution chain, the mark up so that retailers can then discount them to their clients to make the clients feel like they get a good deal, while still allowing enough for the retailer to make money for all of their associated costs, and still make a profit and recoup all the costs of the manufacturer in a short enough time frame to make the venture worth while in the first place, and it's easy to see that they can get to 20k pretty easily. I think you're approaching this cost and rip off thing from far too simple of an approach. There are a lot of factors that drive the cost, and it's unfair to assume that it's a rip off based on msrp alone.
post #84 of 158
^^^ You make good points and in the beginning of a certain models' life cycle, I could see them wanting to charge more. But, some companies keep certain lines around for 10+ years. And I think it's ridiculous when they still sell models that have been around forever at those astronomical prices. Anyway, we could go back and forth all day, truth be told, none of us know how much money goes into every aspect of their speaker design and we're all just speculating at this point. I'm going to graciously bow out of the discussion. LOL!
post #85 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Pretty early on, actually. IME a $100k speaker is to a $5k speaker as a $20k Piaget is to a $500 Citizen. The Piaget gets you a certain amount of bragging rights, and if that's what you need to convince yourself of your manhood, if not the rest of the world, good for you. But it won't keep any better time.

Jeremy Clarkson from Top Gear sometimes uses the watch analogy when he is debating the merits of an exotic car.

As he correctly points out, a $10 digital Casio will keep time much more accurately than a $$$ Rolex or what have you. The extra money of the Rolex doesn't buy you a more accurate timepiece... it buys you a feeling of superiority over the 'masses'.

You would be very naive to think that the audio market doesn't also cater to this market audience.
post #86 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post


See what you get for five bucks?

LOL

Enjoy life to the fullest. What does that mean?

Does it mean to limit our senses to just hearing when we listen to music?

No. When we go to concerts, do we ignore the visuals? Or do we enjoy the total experience of sight and sound?

Looking at a beautiful piece of art (speakers) is part of our listening enjoyment. We're not robots.
post #87 of 158
[quote=MasterofBlasting;21692053]Looks should matter, but it shouldn't be any more important than performance. I love great looking speakers, no doubt, but I also realize that at this stage in my life I need to put aesthetics way on the back burner. Might as well put it in a slow-cooker, with my budget.

You're right, some people are lucky when it comes to wealth. While others are destined to poverty(1st world poverty) regardless of their smarts.

Unless it is inherited, wealth isn't about luck. No one in this country is, 'destined for poverty regardless of their smarts.' that kind of thinking gives people an excuse to never try to better themselves.
post #88 of 158
And an excuse to engage in never ending class warfare.

What people do with their money is their business. It doesn't need to serve my welfare in the slightest. If I could afford $100K on speakers I wouldn't hesitate. Although being a value shopper, a nagging voice in the back of my head would be whispering 'prudence'. But I could live with that.

Realistically for me, the range from PSB Synchrony Ones to Aerial 7Ts are the aspirational boundaries, giving performance value for money that I could appreciate. Then again, Golden Ear Triton Twos seem so complete at their price, I don't know how much more one could want. But I'd still want it.
post #89 of 158
So if you guys won the jackpot and got 20 million, would you still not buy any speakers in the ultra high end realm? I can't imagine a multimillionaire owning Emotiva amps, Klipsch speakers and a SVS sub. I remember reading a post from someone on the Emotiva forum who insisted that if he were a millionair, he would still never buy any other amps besides Emos. Riiiiiiiighhht.

I know I would try new speakers that I would never have dreamed of owning. I mean why not right? This hobby is fun and the choices out there are plentiful. Still, I do think it's ridiculous paying 100K for speakers, but man it would be fun to try em out. Especially when you can brag about it!
post #90 of 158
I don't know whether I would waste $100,000 on speakers or not and I do believe it would be a waste. I suspect I would have someone make really nice speaker cabinets for me and buy the best drivers I could get (some of which I already have). Why give up the gratification of speaker building just because I have the money to buy high end ready built ones? I might replace my Emotiva amps with better looking ones. I find the Emo amps to be garish and looks do matter. There are better things to spend most of the money on such as giving to a local psychiatric crisis house. They need the money far more than I do.
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