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Cedar Trail (Atom D2700 2.13GHz/GMA 3650): 1080p using only 12W

post #1 of 53
2/25/12 at 10:50am
Thread Starter 
I came across this video on YouTube from Habey while looking for reviews/information on the next generation Atom platform "Cedar Trail". Cedar Trail bumps Atom up to 2.13GHz and adds the new GMA3650 GPU which had support for DX10.1 and 1080p. It has HDMI which is new for Atom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdssQs1fQjM

What I was surprised to see what the dual 1080p displays with the Kill-A-Watt reading only 12W.

Intel is positioning this as an 'entry level HTPC' board (BOXD2700DC).

Interesting, IMO. It'll be interesting to see the reviews and how well it actually works. My experience with Atom D525/GMA3150, for what it does, has been very good (light computing, web surfing, 720p or less Youtube video, etc.). With HDMI and a better GPU it's compelling.

NAYY. YMMV.
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post #2 of 53
3/25/12 at 6:26pm
Actually, I have been doing some measurements of the Intel DN2800MT mini-ITX motherboard which uses the N2800 Cedar Trail Atom and gotten even lower power consumption figures, an idle Win 7 desktop with keyboard, mouse and idle GigE link draws only 9.6 Watts!

See here for full details:
http://www.linuxtech.net/reviews/int...ower_draw.html
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post #3 of 53
3/25/12 at 6:38pm
What's the yearly saving of a 30 watt CPU compared to a 10 watt CPU?

Likely not much.
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post #4 of 53
3/25/12 at 7:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

What's the yearly saving of a 30 watt CPU compared to a 10 watt CPU?

Likely not much.

Depends on whether or not you're still paying for when the local utility went bankrupt after building the nuclear powerplant that nobody wanted in their backyard or not .

A family member needs a new nettop for surfing, email and maybe setting up an eBay shop for her crafts. I ordered one of the Intel D2700DC boards to try. I am going to put it into an EMC-800BL with a slim DVD burner, 2 x 2GB and a 64GB SSD.

Before I deliver it though, I'll play with it a bit and will try some HTPC stuff on it.
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post #5 of 53
3/25/12 at 7:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

Actually, I have been doing some measurements of the Intel DN2800MT mini-ITX motherboard which uses the N2800 Cedar Trail Atom and gotten even lower power consumption figures, an idle Win 7 desktop with keyboard, mouse and idle GigE link draws only 9.6 Watts!

I like that board -- slim mini-ITX, mSATA and on-board DC power. With 10W TDP I can only imagine the tiny cases you can stuff this into a be completely passive. If the new GPU lives up to expectations this could be pretty awesome.
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post #6 of 53
3/25/12 at 8:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

What's the yearly saving of a 30 watt CPU compared to a 10 watt CPU?

Likely not much.

Depends Utah not much, California a bunch.
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post #7 of 53
3/25/12 at 8:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post


Depends on whether or not you're still paying for when the local utility went bankrupt after building the nuclear powerplant that nobody wanted in their backyard or not .

A family member needs a new nettop for surfing, email and maybe setting up an eBay shop for her crafts. I ordered one of the Intel D2700DC boards to try. I am going to put it into an EMC-800BL with a slim DVD burner, 2 x 2GB and a 64GB SSD.

Before I deliver it though, I'll play with it a bit and will try some HTPC stuff on it.

Of course you need to do the HD Netflix test.
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post #8 of 53
3/25/12 at 8:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

Depends Utah not much, California a bunch.

Humor me. I am curious about the math. Just want to see the difference in dollars.
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post #9 of 53
3/25/12 at 8:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

What's the yearly saving of a 30 watt CPU compared to a 10 watt CPU?

Likely not much.

Is the CPU running 24x7?

20w * 24 * 365 / 1000 = 175 kwh

In Mass, I pay about $.17 /kwh

175 * .17 = $30
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post #10 of 53
3/25/12 at 9:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

What's the yearly saving of a 30 watt CPU compared to a 10 watt CPU?

Likely not much.

$15.77 a year where I live. Assuming 24/7
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post #11 of 53
3/25/12 at 9:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_Steb View Post

$15.77 a year where I live. Assuming 24/7

So its about $8/year for me I would bet as mine is probably awake only half the day.

Not something that is a major criteria for me when choosing a platform. But definitely a minor criteria or tie breaker.
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post #12 of 53
3/25/12 at 9:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post


So its about $8/year for me I would bet as mine is probably awake only half the day.

Not something that is a major criteria for me when choosing a platform. But definitely a minor criteria or tie breaker.

Lower power and no fans would be nice. Eventually one of these low power systems will handle HD Netflix.
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post #13 of 53
3/25/12 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

Lower power and no fans would be nice. Eventually one of these low power systems will handle HD Netflix.

But does lower wattage at the meter mean lower heat?

You would think so but I am not sure the real world difference of 10w vs 25w in a cramped HTPC case.
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post #14 of 53
3/25/12 at 9:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post


But does lower wattage at the meter mean lower heat?

You would think so but I am not sure the real world difference of 10w vs 25w in a cramped HTPC case.

Like you said depends on the setup, but lower watts should help.
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post #15 of 53
3/26/12 at 2:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

But does lower wattage at the meter mean lower heat?

You would think so but I am not sure the real world difference of 10w vs 25w in a cramped HTPC case.

The DN2800MT stays surprisingly cool, I have it inside a minibox M350 case without any fans and at 25C ambient the cpu idles around 43-45C (The Atoms are rated at max 100C) and even when under full load doesn't go above 58C.

IMHO the fact that it can be run completely fanless is the primary advantage of low power draw, not so much the monetary savings (which are nice too especially in Europe where electricity costs more).
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post #16 of 53
3/26/12 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post


"The DN2800MT stays surprisingly cool, I have it inside a minibox M350 case without any fans and at 25C ambient the cpu idles around 43-45C (The Atoms are rated at max 100C) and even when under full load doesn't go above 58C."

IMHO the fact that it can be run completely fanless is the primary advantage of low power draw, not so much the monetary savings (which are nice too especially in Europe where electricity costs more).

Yup if the 22nm atom processor handles HD Netflix I'm going to be all over it. By the way 22nm atom is suppose to have ivy bridge graphics so it will definitely accelerate blu-ray and recorded OTA HD. This might end up being the "ultimate HTPC chip", seems like I've heard that before.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=24296

"The analysis of the graphics driver indicated that VWV will feature a Turbo Mode, although the implementation will differ from its 22 nm brothers, Haswell and Ivy Bridge."

"A second slide indicates that VWV atoms will support up to four cores, 8 GB of DDR3 memory, and USB 3.0"

" The chip will apparently ditch the third party PowerVR graphics from Imagination Technologies plc (LON:IMG) and instead use Intel's own in-house integrated GPU, found in Ivy Bridge."

Huh I didn't notice that it will be a quad core, it should definitely handle HD netflix.
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post #17 of 53
3/26/12 at 11:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

IMHO the fact that it can be run completely fanless is the primary advantage of low power draw, not so much the monetary savings (which are nice too especially in Europe where electricity costs more).

That's a big part of my on-going interest in it too. And, maybe it's just me personally, but there's a certain elegance to this passive all-in-one design -- kind of a less-is-more thing. I also know what happens when you demonstrate one of these no noise, tiny systems that sip electricity to people, geeks or no geeks, they are just blown away. Atom isn't for everyone but I have a couple of very happy customers I built D525-based systems for that still have to tell me how happy they are with their "cute little system" whenever I see them.

I am excited to mess around with this. I hope my memory gets here soon.
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post #18 of 53
3/26/12 at 5:43pm
Now that it has HDMI, we can start taking Atom somewhat serious for HTPC usage. Cedar Trail based systems will hit their niche for those who want a small, quiet, cool systems for basic HTPC duties. I'm not sure how expandable it will be with ATSC tuner cards, SATA/eSATA ports, BD, RAM, etc, but some people are looking for more basic system than others.

Valley View sounds like it has a lot of potential, if the rumors/leaks are true. I doubt it will be the full performance Ivy Bridge graphics, but maybe a smaller version similar to how ATI/AMD has their 6000 family of graphics with 6450, 6570, 6770, etc.
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post #19 of 53
3/26/12 at 5:48pm
So if the size of the motherboard (mini-ITX I assume) isn't any smaller I still don't really see the appeal of Atom/Zacate. Way too underpowered when you can get something like an LGA1155 or Llano for not a whole lot more cost, heat and energy consumption.

And you will have a much better HTPC platform, imo.

Tell me where I am wrong. Maybe its just me and how I view HTPC though. I know that I constantly am changing what I want to do with my machines and having almost nothing in hardware reserve is really a handicap, imo.

Again this is my opinion alone and I know that you do not share it. Not trying to be argumentative --- just trying to see who would want this and why.
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post #20 of 53
3/26/12 at 6:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorthocar View Post

Now that it has HDMI, we can start taking Atom somewhat serious for HTPC usage. Cedar Trail based systems will hit their niche for those who want a small, quiet, cool systems for basic HTPC duties. I'm not sure how expandable it will be with ATSC tuner cards, SATA/eSATA ports, BD, RAM, etc, but some people are looking for more basic system than others.

Valley View sounds like it has a lot of potential, if the rumors/leaks are true. I doubt it will be the full performance Ivy Bridge graphics, but maybe a smaller version similar to how ATI/AMD has their 6000 family of graphics with 6450, 6570, 6770, etc.

I imagine the 22nm chips will be similar to sandy bridge where different models will come with different graphics capabilities with atom being the lowest. It still might be enough to satisfy most people on here though. I'm guessing this N2800 will do everything except HD netflix, so this is the place for improvement.
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post #21 of 53
3/26/12 at 6:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

So if the size of the motherboard (mini-ITX I assume) isn't any smaller I still don't really see the appeal of Atom/Zacate. Way too underpowered when you can get something like an LGA1155 or Llano for not a whole lot more cost, heat and energy consumption.

And you will have a much better HTPC platform, imo.

Tell me where I am wrong. Maybe its just me and how I view HTPC though. I know that I constantly am changing what I want to do with my machines and having almost nothing in hardware reserve is really a handicap, imo.

Again this is my opinion alone and I know that you do not share it. Not trying to be argumentative --- just trying to see who would want this and why.

Once these chips can do HD netflix I don't think I would consider them underpowered for anything I plan on doing. My experience with zacate is that it did HD playback, Hd recording, and blu-ray well so for those tasks its not underpowered.

My main gripe with my zacate system was that MSI put a tiny heatsink on the board and so had to put a high rpm fan to keep the processor cool.
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post #22 of 53
3/26/12 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

So if the size of the motherboard (mini-ITX I assume) isn't any smaller I still don't really see the appeal of Atom/Zacate. Way too underpowered when you can get something like an LGA1155 or Llano for not a whole lot more cost, heat and energy consumption.

And you will have a much better HTPC platform, imo.

Tell me where I am wrong. Maybe its just me and how I view HTPC though. I know that I constantly am changing what I want to do with my machines and having almost nothing in hardware reserve is really a handicap, imo.

Again this is my opinion alone and I know that you do not share it. Not trying to be argumentative --- just trying to see who would want this and why.

Size? Now you're giving me a crazy idea. The upcoming "Medfield" Atom that is going into cellphones.... Well, Cedar Trail is bigger and more power hungry than that (single core vs. dual core, etc), but what if there were a very thick cellphone type of box with an SSD + Cedar Trail system with an external power supply, ports for HDMI, ethernet, eSATA, USB, with everything completely passive. External DVD/BD drive. An interesting idea.

But my HTPC has much more compute power than that with a SB i7 -- it comes in handy as I'm transcoding my ATSC recordings to h.264. I'd hate to imagine how long it would take on an Atom. Although I may be more of a power HTPC user, not everybody is. If there is a market for streaming only boxes like the Roku, there is one for basic Atom based HTPCs too.
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post #23 of 53
3/26/12 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorthocar View Post

Size? Now you're giving me a crazy idea. The upcoming "Medfield" Atom that is going into cellphones.... Well, Cedar Trail is bigger and more power hungry than that (single core vs. dual core, etc), but what if there were a very thick cellphone type of box with an SSD + Cedar Trail system with an external power supply, ports for HDMI, ethernet, eSATA, USB, with everything completely passive. External DVD/BD drive. An interesting idea.

But my HTPC has much more compute power than that with a SB i7 -- it comes in handy as I'm transcoding my ATSC recordings to h.264. I'd hate to imagine how long it would take on an Atom. Although I may be more of a power HTPC user, not everybody is. If there is a market for streaming only boxes like the Roku, there is one for basic Atom based HTPCs too.

Sure. But the Roku is cheap. Even an Atom HTPC would not be cheap in comparison to the Roku.

And the difference in price between an Atom and more powerful build just isn't that great anymore. That was my main (friendly) argument against the Atom.

I think the Atom had a place a few years ago. But now with the Intel i3/Pentium/Celeron LGA1155 and the Llano I just don't see where its that appealing.

Now if they could cram it all down into something uber tiny including RAM, wireless/network/HDMI/USB/etc I might see it. But I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere.
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post #24 of 53
3/26/12 at 7:40pm
Thread Starter 
I am sure before long this thread will be lined with crazy deals on SB G530 + Foxconn motherboards from MicroCenter where everything is in stock, you can get as many as you want with no tax or shipping -- well, except for at mine somehow . This happens when anyone mentions anything to do with being interested in Atom.

For a little box to surf the net, Facebook and check emails, do some eBay stuff, even the occasional YouTube 720p video, Atom does more than fine. Anything more would be a waste. That's just y feeling, philosopjy and experience. The Intel BOXD2700DC I ordered has a dual-core 2.13GHz processor, GMA 3650 graphics, can take 4GB, has a miniPCI-e slot for a wireless card and it's passively cooled. It was $72 to my door and will be more than adequate for the intended (not mine) use. Since it has no HSF it's going to be great in the EMC-800BL with a DVD-RW, 4GB and an SSD. This customer doesn't even have an HD capable TV, let alone cares about Netflix HD, BD rips or any other thing and if they do, they'll buy a Blu-ray player, maybe with the $50 or so I saved them.

Personally, I am always going to keep checking the latest and greatest low-end to see what it's capable of for HTPC and non-HTPC use. The line is getting closer and closer.

Atom makes a great nettop or preschool PC.

So does SB G530 for more.

Zacate even makes for a terrific server motherboard.

Eveything has its place.
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post #25 of 53
3/26/12 at 7:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorthocar View Post

Size? Now you're giving me a crazy idea. The upcoming "Medfield" Atom that is going into cellphones.... Well, Cedar Trail is bigger and more power hungry than that (single core vs. dual core, etc), but what if there were a very thick cellphone type of box with an SSD + Cedar Trail system with an external power supply, ports for HDMI, ethernet, eSATA, USB, with everything completely passive. External DVD/BD drive. An interesting idea.

But my HTPC has much more compute power than that with a SB i7 -- it comes in handy as I'm transcoding my ATSC recordings to h.264. I'd hate to imagine how long it would take on an Atom. Although I may be more of a power HTPC user, not everybody is. If there is a market for streaming only boxes like the Roku, there is one for basic Atom based HTPCs too.

Yup, you don't want to do that on anything but a newer desktop chip. But most people don't transcode and I'm sure some of the people that do have higher end desktop computers that they could use.

I'm guessing 90% of HTPC users just do
blu-ray playback
OTA or cable HD recording and playback
HD netflix streaming
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post #26 of 53
3/26/12 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

Yup, you don't want to do that on anything but a newer desktop chip. But most people don't transcode and I'm sure some of the people that do have higher end desktop computers that they could use.

I'm guessing 90% of HTPC users just do
blu-ray playback
OTA or cable HD recording and playback
HD netflix streaming

According to the census that I did though most people on AVS expect their hardware to last 3+ years.

Not sure this meets that requirement.
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post #27 of 53
3/29/12 at 10:57am
Thread Starter 
If anyone is wondering how the D525 compares to the D2700, here's the WEI results from each. The D525MW is with the GMA3150. The D2700DC is with the GMA3650 (aka PowerVR SGX545). Both are from W7 x86. Both are the Intel boards.

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post #28 of 53
3/29/12 at 1:59pm
Thread Starter 
I am using the latest Intel GMA 3600 series drivers from the Intel download site.

I tested Netflix HD and the news is not good. With Silverlight 4 it's unwatchable. With Silverlight 5 it's better but there is still some jerkiness. CPU usage is 45-65%. At least though it doesn't freeze like 4. Netflix SD is fine.

1080p H.264 BD rips run fine. Everything looked smooth by my eye. My test subject is the beginning of "Tinkerbell The Lost Treasure". There's a very intricate side-scroll with what looks like woven artwork and then a whole sequence with high detail. Hey -- you use what you've got, right? The detail was all there and the scrolling was about as smooth as I've seen it.

The desktop experience itself is fine with things very zippy like opening/closing windows, starting apps, etc. Having the SSD definitely helps.

If Netflix is your thing, it's still not HTPC-worthy. For the basics I've tried so far though, it seems great. With an SSD and no case fans in the tiny HT80 case, there's no sound and everything is cool to the touch. It's strange and wonderful turning it on and hearing absolutely nothing.
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post #29 of 53
3/29/12 at 8:56pm
Thread Starter 
"ion3" d2700 + gt520.
LL
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post #30 of 53
3/30/12 at 5:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post

The DN2800MT stays surprisingly cool, I have it inside a minibox M350 case without any fans and at 25C ambient the cpu idles around 43-45C (The Atoms are rated at max 100C) and even when under full load doesn't go above 58C.

Now here is the perfect case for it.

Lian Li PC-Q05
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