Originally Posted by Bond 007
Originally Posted by batpig
I'm not sure I agree with that -- the PB1000 is sitting there right at $500 staring you in the face. It should be a good bit better than any of the $300-and-under subs.
Its not. The RW12 is as good. Or atleast close enough imo not to be worth another $200. And since the pb1000 is about the only thing at $500 that makes it a dead zone. Unless you can name something that really is a good bit better than the rw at $500. This is of course a very general appraisal.
Color me skeptical that the RW12 is as good as the PB1000. I may be biased but I simply trust SVS to built a great sub much more than Klispch. And the "close enough to not be worth another $200" is obviously pretty subjective. Is the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus (just to throw one out there) really that much better than the SVS to be worth another $150? You can play that game endlessly...
The SVS is legitimately flat to 20Hz, with a -3dB spec of 19Hz as opposed to the 24Hz spec of the Klipsch. And SVS subs always bear out their specs when tested by independent reviewers, so I believe the specs & graphs as posted by SVS.
The Klipsch may come close in absolute low end extension and maybe even have a touch more max output, but there is no way it's as clean as the SVS. It simply can't match the bandwidth linearity of the SVS or the low distortion. In many reviews (both user reports and the Sound & Vision test) it has been reported to be muddy at its limits (which, to be fair, any budget sub will be) and not that musical. For example, from the S&V review we see quotes like, "The sub's tonal quality was a little boomy, however, and it sometimes blossomed into resonance when hitting certain notes. It delivered lots of good bass but occasionally some not so good bass", and "It tackled the lowest notes and played them, not with the best fidelity, but with lots of energy. Mid and upper frequencies were more controlled, but the tonal quality was sometimes muddy. The snap in the bass line was obscured by some port noise, so the power of the note was there, but not always the enunciation. When really cranked, distortion was evident."
While the SVS PB-1000 hasn't been independently reviewed AFAIK, its predecessors the PB-10 NSD and ISD have been. The thing I think you are overlooking is the stuff past the on-the-surface FR plots, especially linearity and distortion. In the S&V test of the Klipsch
, it delivered a ton of output but the "Bass Limit" test had it maxing out at 86dB at 20Hz with 10% distortion.
Now compare that to the PB-10 NSD, tested at Secrets
. It put out 100+ dBSPL at 25HZ with less than 1.3% THD
. The review goes on, "Plotting THD+N vs. Frequency, with 50 Hz set to 100 dB at 1 foot, yielded the graph shown below. Distortion stayed below 3% from about 22 Hz all the way up to 200 Hz. Again, this is pretty amazing performance for a 10" driver."Secrets also tested the prior PB-10 ISD
, and found similar results. Click on that link and just look at that ground plane measurement! 19-150HZ +/- 1dB (!!) with a 104dB dynamic compression limit. In the THD test, it put out 94dB at 20Hz with 8% THD (amp limited) and 97dB At 22Hz with only 2.7% THD
! Quoting Secrets, "These distortion and bandwidth linearity values are simply outstanding. Note the amplifier limited the output at 20 Hz - 22 Hz, and the distortion at 22 Hz was only 2.7%!"
Remember, the Klipsch RW-12d couldn't even crack 90dB at 20Hz without topping the 10% THD threshold.
There is no reason to think the PB-1000 will not put up the same kind of results (or better). And let's not forget, although it may not be important to many users, that the SVS subs are flat up to 200Hz+ on the upper end, whereas the Klipsch has an upper -3dB spec of 120Hz. This could be valuable to those integrating the sub with smaller satellite speakers, but is also another indication of the linearity of the SVS products.
So the bottom line is that while the Klipsch may match (or even exceed) the SVS in raw output in the 25-80Hz range, the SVS will both dig deeper AND do it with better linearity and less distortion. If the goal is just to get the maximum output for movie effects for the dollar, I think the Klipsch is a great option, especially because you can get two for just a little more than the single SVS, but the SVS is going to deliver "cleaner" bass and really be able to hit down to 20Hz easily in room. It's really a question of priorities, but I don't think it's really in doubt that the PB-1000 is a superior subwoofer.