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Budget subwoofers discussions, opinions and questions thread - Page 36

post #1051 of 2778
Batpig,

Different reviewers, different measuring standards, different measuring rigs, different dates, different temps, different reviewers. Your distortion figures and frequency response comparisons are apples to oranges.

The klipsch rw-12d placed middle of the pack against $700 to $900 subs in the 2007 sound and vision review. Some of those subs like the outlaw and a variant of the HSU are still favorites today. The context of the positive and negative comments quoted are against $700 to $900 internet direct subs. They were a/b/c/d/e tested against each other on the same equipment by the same reviewer. I see this over and over but those comments are taken out of context when someone tries to say something like 'the former $700 klipsch is bloated on music at its limits so I'll buy the $300 retail priced (not on sale) emotiva instead'. Nonsense. The limits on the klipsch are going to be much higher than the limits on an alternate normal priced $300 budget sub. How much burden will that emotiva sub be under trying to play back the levels the klipsch started burdening under?

Note the 2007 shootout also included a sealed svs, which arguably finished last place in that particular contest despite its higher cost.

Do you think anyone expected the svs to finish behind the klipsch in 2007? I would not have...

How does that svs sub directly compare against the new pb 1000? We don't know, but as you say svs has long made quality products and I'd expect that 2007 sealed sub to be pretty decent too.

In the end...the klipsch at $300, while they last, is fairly untouchable. You can root for other favorites vendors all day long but it doesn't change the fact that the closeout price on the klipsch is a ridiculous value and probably well below what these subs could even be replicated for by svs if the chose to market and sell an identical model even 7 years later. (With the decreases in price on dsp tech)

Two klipsch rw-12d subs against one pb 1000 at similar total cost would be a zero contest proposition.

Someone once said "I can't wait till the klipsch subs are all sold out so there can be some alternate recommendations" how true--- but while still avail at the $300 price they are unbeatable for feature/cost/performance.
Edited by Archaea - 2/2/13 at 12:15pm
post #1052 of 2778
BTW. Just 3dB more is actually about doubling the volume and doubling the required power.

Also what distortion the klipsch rw12d makes at 20Hz is immaterial in that that frequency is below port tune on the klipsch.

Below port tune any sub makes primarily distortion.


Try a comparison at 25Hz and see which is louder the klipsch or svs pb 1000. The distortion numbers will be MUCH closer there. Output advantage will go to the higher powered larger driver.

I do like what svs has done with the pb1000. If It was on a half price sale like the klipsch it would also be unbeatable.
post #1053 of 2778
If the Klipsch Sw-112 and Sw-115 go down in price a bit, I think they might be serious contenders against ID subs. I know you can get good street prices for them, and I also want to see them measured, but looking at the specs, the potential is there.
post #1054 of 2778
I was considering the Rhythmik F12 but the deal on the Klipsch is tempting. The build quality of the Klipsch makes me nervous even though the performance seems really good. This would be used mostly for music.
post #1055 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

BTW. Just 3dB more is actually about doubling the volume and doubling the required power.
It takes double the power to increase the volume by 3dB, but 3dB increase does not make it twice as loud. It takes about 10 dB increase to make things appear twice as loud.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm
post #1056 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

It takes double the power to increase the volume by 3dB, but 3dB increase does not make it twice as loud. It takes about 10 dB increase to make things appear twice as loud.

Adding to your above, proper placement of subwoofers can increase the recorded volume at main listening position by 10dB to 15dB. That's not to say that the amplifier output is increased by that amount but to say that the measured sound level can increase by that amount. The point, proper placement and settings for a subwoofer system makes that dramatic of a difference in sound level and the main listening position.
post #1057 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Batpig,

Different reviewers, different measuring standards, different measuring rigs, different dates, different temps, different reviewers. Your distortion figures and frequency response comparisons are apples to oranges.

OK, they aren't perfectly comparable but it's a lot closer than apples and oranges. Just because they weren't tested under the exact same conditions doesn't mean we can't draw any meaningful conclusions. That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Quote:
I see this over and over but those comments are taken out of context when someone tries to say something like 'the former $700 klipsch is bloated on music at its limits so I'll buy the $300 retail priced (not on sale) emotiva instead'. Nonsense. The limits on the klipsch are going to be much higher than the limits on an alternate normal priced $300 budget sub.

This seems like a strawman to me. We aren't talking about a $300 Emotiva sub, but a $500 SVS. Surely you can admit that "big box brand" subs like Klipsch msrp higher than competitive subs from ID brands. All things equal, you would expect a $500msrp ID sub from SVS, HSU, etc. to whoop a similarly priced sub from a major brand like Klipsch, Polk, etc. That's part of the value proposition of internet direct.

Quote:
How does that svs sub directly compare against the new pb 1000? We don't know

Not for sure, but we have a pretty darn good idea. We have multiple tests of the predecessor PB-10 ISD and NSD, plus SVS's specs (which tend to bear out in independent reviews), and user feedback on the PB-1000 owner's thread. We also have plenty of feedback and measurements on the Klipsch. We aren't operating in a vacuum here. I can say with quite a bit of confidence that the PB-1000 will be flat to 20Hz or lower in room, be exceptionally linear across its bandwidth, and produce a lot of output with very low distortion.

Quote:
In the end...the klipsch at $300, while they last, is fairly untouchable. You can root for other favorites vendors all day long but it doesn't change the fact that the closeout price on the klipsch is a ridiculous value and probably well below what these subs could even be replicated for by svs if the chose to market and sell an identical model even 7 years later. (With the decreases in price on dsp tech)

Hey man, I never denied the value proposition of the Klispch nor did I bash it. It's undisputably an awesome value at $300. But if you can afford more, there are better subs out there, including the PB-1000 which I feel confident in saying is a better sub in every respect outside of raw 25Hz+ output.

To me, it's a very simple case of "quality vs quantity". It's pretty unambiguous that the SVS goes lower than the Klipsch (and higher too). I also think it's obvious that the SVS is going to be more linear and have lower distortion (cleaner). On the contrary, the Klipsch is cheaper and will produce more output in the 25Hz+ range. If what you want is tons of cheap output, then $600 for two RW-12d's is a no-brainer over a single PB-1000. I'm not going to argue that point at all (and in fact I recommended this previously).

Is there anything you think the Klipsch will do BETTER than the SVS beyond having some more output? If the price were identical, would anyone be recommending the Klipsch over the SVS? To me it's pretty clear that the SVS is a better sub all around; even if they were identical in performance, the SVS brand reputation and customer service would tip the scales in their favor. (and BTW I'm not a "rooting" for SVS out of some personal interest, I don't and have never owned an SVS product, but their record for customer service and reputation for sub design are unassailable... the same cannot be said for Klipsch!)

I don't feel like derailing this thread with this argument any further; hopefully you'll get the chance to test the PB-1000 for yourself to add to your data set and provide your own conclusions.
post #1058 of 2778
Not crazy about Klipsch and surely not a fan of overpriced SVS...but with that being said, and owning neither brands of anything, but have heard both brands, I would go SVS each and every time. SVS just sounds...right. Klipsch just sounds annoying in comparison...like the moron in the car next to you at a stop light and knows not the common courtesy to turn down the overbearingly loud crap they consider to be music, thumping the trunk lid making it rattle incesively...
post #1059 of 2778
I think you win the "judgement based upon unscientific comparison" award! biggrin.gif

In this case I actually have no doubt that, unlike some of their budget garbage, the Klipsch RW-12d is a very fine product. I fully believe the consensus that nothing can touch it at $350 or less. And I do agree that if output is your primary goal (e.g. you have a big room and/or are planning to play movies *loud*) I would recommend the Klispch over the SVS. I just doubt that the Klispch can touch the SVS in extension or linearity / musicality.

The thing with being budget constrained is that you have to choose which areas you want to compromise. The Klipsch makes different compromises than the SVS... part of this is admittedly some of my bias, as I can't really play my system super loud and as such lean heavily towards "quality over quantity".
post #1060 of 2778
How would a PB-1000 do in about 2,500 cubic feet of space?
post #1061 of 2778
I think it depends on how loud you want to go. Many budget subs compromise extension for overall output; the PB-1000 seems to have gone with a different approach, compromising raw output for incredible extension and linearity. I doubt it would have enough headroom to go full reference in a room that size, so if you are trying to do full ass kicking movie theater boom boom I'd go with dual RW-12d for all the reasons discussed above. If you are only going to go moderately loud (and especially if you want clean tight music performance, not just HT) then it should do just fine. You might want to ask in the owners thread though as I am really just speculating.
post #1062 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

In this case I actually have no doubt that, unlike some of their budget garbage, the Klipsch RW-12d is a very fine product. I fully believe the consensus that nothing can touch it at $350 or less. And I do agree that if output is your primary goal (e.g. you have a big room and/or are planning to play movies *loud*) I would recommend the Klispch over the SVS. I just doubt that the Klispch can touch the SVS in extension or linearity / musicality.

I agree. And to this I would add that the build quality of the SVS is likely better, and then the five year bumper to bumper warranty (vs the 2 year on the Klipsch). If I had to bet on which sub would still be working well seven or eight years from now, it would be the SVS.
post #1063 of 2778
Hi guys looking to complete my home theater system. I've spent a couple years saving up for speakers and a receiver and am now ready to turn it to a 7.1 home theater. Just need help in what direction I should go for in a sub. I primarily will be using it for gaming and movies/TV. Maybe every now and then music but not often. The listening area is roughly 13' wide x 11' long x 10' high. Give or take a couple feet in each direction. The entire room is tile. My receievrd is the Denon 2112ci and I am using energy cf70, cc10, cb5 and cr10s. Was looking at the f12 or maybe rw-12d. I have a couple hundred dollars in gift cards so I'm thinking my budget maybe at the $200-300 range. Really appreciate all your guys input thanks.
post #1064 of 2778
That room is small enough that a "budget" sub should be able to fill it with good quality bass, and the fact that it's mostly movies/games (and not music) means that you won't feel the lack of "musicality" of these budget subs quite as much. The Klipsch RW-12d is the consensus king in this price point so if you can afford it, and can snag it on $299 sale at Newegg, that's the obvious choice.
post #1065 of 2778
I just checked Phoenix area craigslist and check it out, since it sounds like you are on an extreme budget this could be the ticket: http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/ele/3579681878.html
post #1066 of 2778
Thread Starter 
If you can swing it I'd go for the RW-12d myself. That's a good deal for $300.
post #1067 of 2778
Thank y
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

If you can swing it I'd go for the RW-12d myself. That's a good deal for $300.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I just checked Phoenix area craigslist and check it out, since it sounds like you are on an extreme budget this could be the ticket: http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/ele/3579681878.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

That room is small enough that a "budget" sub should be able to fill it with good quality bass, and the fact that it's mostly movies/games (and not music) means that you won't feel the lack of "musicality" of these budget subs quite as much. The Klipsch RW-12d is the consensus king in this price point so if you can afford it, and can snag it on $299 sale at Newegg, that's the obvious choice.
Thank you guys. Think I'll try and get one soon. I was leaning towards the rw12 but was wondering for sure what you guys thought.
post #1068 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I fully believe the consensus that nothing can touch it at $350 or less.

I'm a fanboy of Klipsch and the RW-12d but I think the above is discounting the challenge a BIC, PL-200 provides.
post #1069 of 2778
Well, I'm happy to say that my worries are over since my Jamo SUB 650 was delivered by UPS today. I'll tell ya, I was worried too! It was packed very well and arrived unscathed and by the time I had it sitting on the floor all I could do was look at it for awhile. It is a much better looking sub in person than I thought it was according to the pictures I've seen. Heavier than it looks at 48.9 pounds because it's somewhat compact looking at only H 16.5 x W 15.7 x D 16.5 for the measurments. It's the black version and has only one mark on it that I can see but is hardly noticeable.

I've been messing around with it and trying different set ups and settings to figure out what sounds the best to me and I believe it's going to take me some time to get it where I want it. My old Pioneer VSX-21 receiver doesn't have HDMI so I'm running my Panasonic DMP-BDT500 to it via 5.1 Analog Audio outputs. Thankfully I do have several connection options on the Jamo subs amp that I can experiment with. My oh' my does it ever sound nice though!

Thanks again guys! This thread is a great place for a sub novice like myself to hang around. The things I picked up here had me feeling fairly confident to make a subwoofer purchase even though I'm on a budget.

Al
post #1070 of 2778
Thread Starter 
I'm glad it all worked out for you. Now stop posting and go have fun with your new toy! smile.gif
post #1071 of 2778
Are the jamo 650 subs back on sale somewhere again? I thought that party was over?
post #1072 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Are the jamo 650 subs back on sale somewhere again? I thought that party was over?

It is over. He bought used.
post #1073 of 2778
Hello all! Long time reader, first time poster.. And let me tell you that this website has been invaluable!

Like others on here, I am looking for rec's on sub. It will be in a 13'x20'x7.5' room which opens into a 12'x15'x7.5' room through a 4' wide opening (no door). Please feel free to check out my professional floorplan model. All walls are wood stud/drywall, with carpet over concrete.



Anyway, my usage will be about 60% TV/HT, 20% Gaming, and 20% Music. No receiver yet (still narrowing it down), but fronts are JBL L880's with CL2 Center and SP8CII rears.

I would like to stay around $300, but can push $400 if necessary.

I've noticed a lot of people swaying toward the RW-12D and the F12. I'm not partial to either and could use any help I can get.

And Thanks in advance for any input!
post #1074 of 2778
Thanks for the valuable resource and opinions/data, Jim and all posters. It is helpful, though sometimes ignorance is bliss as my head spins when i read some of these comparisons and charts.

I am looking to upgrade my Polk PSW110. TV/movies and music may be split 50/50, but music is 95% importance. The Cadence @ $279 sounds like my best bet after reading Jim's review. I am in a near square bedroom that has an additional "hallway" roughly 12x11x7.5 + 6x4x7.5

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000YQA14U/ref=wl_it_of_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=1I6SOIKDAGU3Z&coliid=I15ITOZGWID9GZ&condition=all
post #1075 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwhausmann View Post

I've noticed a lot of people swaying toward the RW-12D and the F12. I'm not partial to either and could use any help I can get.

For comparison purposes, add to your choice list, a BIC, PL-200. Advice? Up your budget and buy two. Buy your first sub and add a second one as you're able.

If you want the best out of your subwoofer system, one "MUST" acquire room measurement abilities (OmniMic or REW) or you're shooting in the dark. Not a good way to try and integrate a subwoofer system into a room's acoustics.

Just saying, not taking the time to dial a sub into a room acoustics, can easily steal fifty percent of a subwoofer's performance capabilities.

-
post #1076 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwhausmann View Post

Hello all! Long time reader, first time poster.. And let me tell you that this website has been invaluable!

I would like to stay around $300, but can push $400 if necessary.

I've noticed a lot of people swaying toward the RW-12D and the F12. I'm not partial to either and could use any help I can get.

And Thanks in advance for any input!
Why dont you tell us what you dont like about those 2 so that we can help you better.
post #1077 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGMasta View Post

Thanks for the valuable resource and opinions/data, Jim and all posters. It is helpful, though sometimes ignorance is bliss as my head spins when i read some of these comparisons and charts.

I am looking to upgrade my Polk PSW110. TV/movies and music may be split 50/50, but music is 95% importance. The Cadence @ $279 sounds like my best bet after reading Jim's review. I am in a near square bedroom that has an additional "hallway" roughly 12x11x7.5 + 6x4x7.5

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000YQA14U/ref=wl_it_of_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=1I6SOIKDAGU3Z&coliid=I15ITOZGWID9GZ&condition=all

I would have bought that Cadence sub if I had a newer receiver with hdmi connections. As it is, I 've got an older receiver and wanted more hook up options than that sub offers otherwise that would have been my choice. Whether or not the connection options I have with the Jamo SUB 650, that I ended up getting used, are going to help me I don't yet know because I'm still experimenting with it. In the end, with a more modern receiver, I felt the Cadence was the best unit out there for the money considering the build quality, the amp, and overall looks of it.
You can take all of that with a grain of salt because this was my first subwoofer purchase and I haven't listened to any of these budget subs.

Al
post #1078 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

My old Pioneer VSX-21 receiver doesn't have HDMI so I'm running my Panasonic DMP-BDT500 to it via 5.1 Analog Audio outputs.
Why not run an optical cable from the DVD player to your receiver? Although technically the end result may not be much different from what you're already doing. I guess it depends on which device has a better DAC. You'd just have fewer cables to deal with if you used optical. Also, I don't know if your receiver is capable of doing any sort of bass management on the incoming analog 5.1 signals. If it isn't, then that would be another reason to use an optical connection instead.

If this 100 Hz crossover setting on your receiver is a problem because you have large speakers, then it may just be time for a new receiver. You can get a decent entry level receiver with better bass management and HDMI switching for $200 these days.
post #1079 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If you want the best out of your subwoofer system, one "MUST" acquire room measurement abilities (OmniMic or REW) or you're shooting in the dark. Not a good way to try and integrate a subwoofer system into a room's acoustics.

Just saying, not taking the time to dial a sub into a room acoustics, can easily steal fifty percent of a subwoofer's performance capabilities.

-


While technically true, it's tough advice to swallow in a budget subwoofer thread. When you consider the two options are either (1) REW, which costs at minimum $100 to get up and running and has a STEEP learning curve, or (2) Omnimic, which costs $300, as much or more than the budget subwoofer itself.... it's not always practical for this level of buyer.

For the uneducated / low budget buyer, plopping down two subs in two random locations will likely yield a lot better response than a single sub plopped in a corner, so even then it's a huge benefit. It takes sophistication, time and know-how to try and use measurement software to optimize dual sub placement.
post #1080 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwhausmann View Post



Anyway, my usage will be about 60% TV/HT, 20% Gaming, and 20% Music. No receiver yet (still narrowing it down), but fronts are JBL L880's with CL2 Center and SP8CII rears.

I would like to stay around $300, but can push $400 if necessary.

I've noticed a lot of people swaying toward the RW-12D and the F12. I'm not partial to either and could use any help I can get.

That 4 foot opening might present a challenge. If it was simply a standard doorway width I would say either of those two subs would probably be fine, but 4 foot could add some additional considerations. So could the percentage of music; were it not for that I would have said get a pair of F12's and call it a day, but the RW-12d is perhaps the better choice. I'd suggest you get one of the Klipsch subs and see what it can do. If you find it's not sufficient then at some point you can pick up another.
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