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Budget subwoofers discussions, opinions and questions thread - Page 9

post #241 of 2778
Looks like Newegg might be running low on stock on the Energy S10.3. They jumped the price to $499 eek.gif

Either that, or perhaps they are trying to sell more of the PSW505 at $199.
post #242 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by estcstm3 View Post

What sub would you reccomend if $150 is my max budget. I have denon 1713, and Pioneer SP 21 C/F/R/rl/rr. My living room is in a great room. The whole house is only 2300 sq ft and thats with bedrooms so the living room is only probably 1000-1200 sq ft?
Here is a pic of the living room showing the unorthodox shape its a very open room, the back wall that is blue with the rattan shade is where the tv would go and the sub in that corner (next to the lamp).

Thanks for all the help Jim.

Okay so based on the feedback the following subs are in the running (see my room in above pic). The dayton and the klipsch are my outliers as the klipsch is outside the budget and the daytons are less than the my $200 price point pack. I have found that people tend to think some of these are better because they had a higher MSRP and are now lower..i'm wondering how much is psychological over what performs better?

QUESTIONS:
1) Which would you choose overall out of the 5 listed below?
2) Which would you choose out of the middle pack ($200) priced?
3) Are the middle pack better enough that I will notice over the dayton?
4) Likewise is the klipsch noticably better than the 3 in the middle that I would notice?

Low
Dayton 1200 - ~120
Middle
BIC F12 ~200 amazon
Polk PSW505 ~199 amazon
Energy S.10.3 ~199 newegg
High
Klipsch 12d -~299
post #243 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by estcstm3 View Post

1) Which would you choose overall out of the 5 listed below?
2) Which would you choose out of the middle pack ($200) priced?
3) Are the middle pack better enough that I will notice over the dayton?
4) Likewise is the klipsch noticably better than the 3 in the middle that I would notice?
Low
Dayton 1200 - ~120
Middle
BIC F12 ~200 amazon
Polk PSW505 ~199 amazon
Energy S.10.3 ~199 newegg
High
Klipsch 12d -~299

I know I would notice the difference, so I'd go with the Klipsch RW-12d. Out of the middle of the pack, I'd probably go with the PSW505 if the Energy S10.3 is not available. However, I'd choice the BIC PL-200 over your middle of the pack if the RW-12d is not available. Your open area floor plan could benefit from the best sub that you can afford.

BTW: I'm basing these decisions off of what I know about these subs performance in max SPL, frequency response, and SQ, not because of how much they are off MSRP.
post #244 of 2778
Thread Starter 
I'd also put the RW-12d first, but I'd opt for the S10.3 second and go with the PL-200 third (but 2nd and 3rd are almost a toss-up in my mind).

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

BTW: I'm basing these decisions off of what I know about these subs performance in max SPL, frequency response, and SQ, not because of how much they are off MSRP.

Ditto. I considered all factors -- including suitability to the task/environment, not just price -- when making my suggestions.
post #245 of 2778
I wish my budget wasnt so tight....My room is very large and I have been leaning towards the energy s10.3 since its in my budget. If I can pony up the extra money the Klipsh 299 sale. Where can I find the best deal on the BIC PL-200?

FYI.. my only other in person reference point is Polk PSW10 (not in my space) and it seemed fairly loud so maybe im a good ignorance is bliss person and will just appreciate the cleanness of the energy not neccesary the shake your organs punch???

Thanks.
post #246 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by estcstm3 View Post

Where can I find the best deal on the BIC PL-200?

Try this link. Use the Make An Offer button and bid $275-$280. Often times they'll accept it.
post #247 of 2778
Do you think the s.10.3 can fill my room like the BIC f12 or Polk 505? I listen to alot of music airplay and pandora so the "musical" aspect of that sub seems appealing. Wish there was a way I could hear these different subs or alteast find a place with a good return policy.
post #248 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by estcstm3 View Post

Okay so based on the feedback the following subs are in the running (see my room in above pic). The dayton and the klipsch are my outliers as the klipsch is outside the budget and the daytons are less than the my $200 price point pack. I have found that people tend to think some of these are better because they had a higher MSRP and are now lower..i'm wondering how much is psychological over what performs better?
QUESTIONS:
1) Which would you choose overall out of the 5 listed below?
2) Which would you choose out of the middle pack ($200) priced?
3) Are the middle pack better enough that I will notice over the dayton?
4) Likewise is the klipsch noticably better than the 3 in the middle that I would notice?
Low
Dayton 1200 - ~120
Middle
BIC F12 ~200 amazon
Polk PSW505 ~199 amazon
Energy S.10.3 ~199 newegg
High
Klipsch 12d -~299

IMHO you should buy the best sub you can afford now (12d) and get another when the $$ permits. I have a Great Room like yours (open every where to everything) but without any walls (talking about 8000 cu. ft.). I have been living with dual H100s for a couple of years (good enough to hear), and just ordered a couple 12ds. I plan on putting the 12ds on the front wall and have the two H100s firing right into the back of my couch (near field). It's not gonna be earth shattering, but it should keep me happy enough (as long as no one I know gets a hold of some serious subs).

You might consider going to Acoustic Audio (I think that's the name) and talking to Mike about getting a PA150 (15" sub). He told me I could get each for $300, but shipping would be at least $150 or more for each sub. I just couldn't drop that kind of $$ right now (wife would string me up). So I ended up getting two 12ds for $400 (including shipping) from Amazon.

I know, I know. At $800 I should be looking into HSU or SVS (at least). HSU won't even ship to me, and I can't imagine how much it would cost to ship a Ultra or so here.

Good luck either way.
post #249 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by estcstm3 View Post

Do you think the s.10.3 can fill my room like the BIC f12 or Polk 505? I listen to alot of music airplay and pandora so the "musical" aspect of that sub seems appealing. Wish there was a way I could hear these different subs or alteast find a place with a good return policy.

I don't necessary think it will "fill" your room -- at least not by my definition of fill -- but of the 3 subs you mention it's the most musical, so if that quality is of particular interest to you the S10.3 might not be a bad choice. It's widely acknowledged to be more musical then the RW12-d.
post #250 of 2778
I am so happy I found this thread, as I almost created another for my situation. It seems much more appropriate to just post here.

I recently bought Energy Micros which I am yet to set up (we are in the process of buying a house now). My sub search has revealed two main issues. First is a possible frequency hole from 150 Hz down to whatever the sub can hit. However, looking at this graph http://www.hometheater.com/content/energy-rc-micro-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures seems to indicate the Micros are still producing at decent levels down to at least 140 Hz, so that may not be as big of a deal. The second issue is that, while I really would like to get a 12" sub, I'm reading 12" subs in general do not match well with small speakers (possibly this is really the same issue as the first).

I really can't see myself going above $200, and I'm sure it will be a challenge to convince the wife to go above $100 (though all of my candidates would require that). After reading this thread, I had pretty much decided on the S10.3 despite the fact the specs indicate a significant frequency hole from 120-150Hz. However, Newegg has now discontinued it (like they did with the Micros previously). Oh well.

My candidates at the moment seem to be...

-Bic F12: It's frequency range (25-200 Hz) makes it appear on paper to be more than adequate to match with the Micros. But am I expecting a 12" sub to play too high too much? I'm not crazy about front firing as well because it's not as kid proof. Plus it's toward the top end of my budget.

-Dayton Sub 1000/1200: If it had a slightly higher frequency response, it would probably be at the top of the list, but it tops out at 140 Hz again leaving a frequency hole. I prefer the 12" version because it is the same price with the ability to hit lower frequencies (30 Hz vs 35 Hz), but if the 10" is a better match for the Micros, so be it. I really wish there were frequency response graphs for this speaker. I also am confused as to whether it is down firing (as the verbal description says) or front firing (as the pictures seem to clearly indicate).

-Bic V1020/V1220: With specs topping out at 180 Hz, these again seem a potentially good match. And unlike with the F12, there is a 10" version that maybe is a better match for the Micros. Plus it is downfiring.

-Anything else that might be suggested

I wish I could say the Jamo Sub 650 was on the list, but I just don't know if I can swing the budget, especially since it is no longer available at $250 (though I did briefly see a $242 open box on Vann's today).

Other pertinent info:
Room dimensions (if I remember right) are only 10'x13'x8'
Figure 75/20/5 movies/games/music


Any suggestions or thoughts?
post #251 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by estcstm3 View Post

Do you think the s.10.3 can fill my room like the BIC f12 or Polk 505? I listen to alot of music airplay and pandora so the "musical" aspect of that sub seems appealing. Wish there was a way I could hear these different subs or alteast find a place with a good return policy.

I don't necessary think it will "fill" your room -- at least not by my definition of fill -- but of the 3 subs you mention it's the most musical, so if that quality is of particular interest to you the S10.3 might not be a bad choice. It's widely acknowledged to be more musical then the RW12-d.

Jim,

where did you see a s10.3 and a rw-12d directly compared? Perspectives of bias to only one side or the other without experiencing both must be taken with a grain of salt.
post #252 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

where did you see a s10.3 and a rw-12d directly compared?

I saw no such comparison. My statement was based solely upon the compilation of opinions I've seen voiced on this and other forums.
post #253 of 2778
I think I might be in a bit of a pinch, I am trying to decide on a new subwoofer as my last one died. Here is all the info about my setup and room

17ft wide x 15ft long (8 ft ceilings) We sit only about 7 feet from the TV (if that matters). Floor is carpet.
I have a denon 2312 CI receiver
A full set of Energy XL series speakers (25, 16, C2). They are over 12 years old, but I still love them.

The sub will mostly be used for Movies and Video games, occasionally music.

The catch is that I have a small enclosure that I have to fit the sub it. 18.5" w 18.5" h 15.5" d which is in the entertainment center I have.

I read about building your own sub, and considered turning the enclosure directly into a sub, but don't know if that would be a terrible idea smile.gif The entertainment center is pretty heavy wood, except for the back which is 1/2" pressed wood.

My budget is up to $500, but not sure if I even need to spend that much. Possibly because of the large room space. I do like a good amount of bass, and like to have the house rumble a bit during a good movie, but don't want it to be too sloppy.

Thank you so much for all the help I have already got from reading all the advice on this thread already, and any help.
post #254 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherford View Post

I read about building your own sub, and considered turning the enclosure directly into a sub, but don't know if that would be a terrible idea smile.gif The entertainment center is pretty heavy wood, except for the back which is 1/2" pressed wood.

If I'm interpreting this correctly -- and what you want to do is take a portion of your entertainment center and turn that into a subwoofer -- then I suspect you will end up regretting it. You'll essentially turn it into one big resonance chamber, and the whole thing would probably vibrate. If you use a pre-built subwoofer, and just place it into an enclosure, then at least you can partially isolate it using rubber feet, a foam mat or something else along those lines. I don't think you'll be able to engineer anything like that if you turn the enclosure itself into a sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherford View Post

The catch is that I have a small enclosure that I have to fit the sub it. 18.5" w 18.5" h 15.5" d which is in the entertainment center I have. My budget is up to $500, but not sure if I even need to spend that much. Possibly because of the large room space. I do like a good amount of bass, and like to have the house rumble a bit during a good movie, but don't want it to be too sloppy.

This sounds to me like the enclosure has no venting, and that the only open part is the front. If so, that's a really bad place for a subwoofer; the amp needs to have air movement around it, because the only cooling is via convection. If there's no place for the heat to go the amp won't last very long.
post #255 of 2778
Thanks for the reply. I will stop investigating building my own, I am so new to this I didn't even think of vibrations. The enclosure has an open front and the back has a large mesh piece about 1/3 of the way up the top that is "open" and I can always cut a larger hole in the back for more ventilation if you think that will help. I know this may not be the ideal place for a sub, but really want to know how I can do the best with what I have. If the sub doesn't end up in the enclosure, I am going to end up with a very unhappy wife smile.gif

I looked at the Energy S10.3, Velodyne Impact-10, as well as the SVS SB12-NSD as well as the Emotive X-Ref 12

The S10.3 won't actually fit, so even though that is often recommended, I can't make that one work in the enclosure. The other subs in the list are significantly more expensive, I am not sure if I will have a sub that is too high class for the rest of my system (is this even possible!) or if that might fit the bill nicely. After some cabinet modifications.
Edited by weatherford - 10/5/12 at 10:25am
post #256 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherford View Post

I looked at the Energy S10.3, Velodyne Impact-10, as well as the SVS SB12-NSD as well as the Emotive X-Ref 12

The SB12-NSD is a very nice subwoofer, so that one should probably be high on your list. Since you "like to have the house rumble a bit during a good movie" the X-Ref 12 is probably not for you; it has good sound quality, but doesn't have much in the 'rumble' department. Another one that you should check out is the Rumba 12. It's a little beast.
post #257 of 2778
Thank you so much for the recommendation. If the Rumba 12 was the tiniest bit smaller I would immediately order one. Any other little power houses I should know about before ordering the SB12-NSD? Thank you again for the help.
post #258 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherford View Post

Thank you so much for the recommendation. If the Rumba 12 was the tiniest bit smaller I would immediately order one. Any other little power houses I should know about before ordering the SB12-NSD? Thank you again for the help.

Not that I can think of. For small and powerful those two are at the top of most peoples list. Sunfire makes the TS-EQS12, but that would be a budget-buster for you.
post #259 of 2778
The majority of the use cases I'm reading are for HT. Out of the budget list are there a couple that are recommended for strictly music?

Not sure how important the speaker-subwoofer matchup is, I'm looking for a sub to put with my new Paradigm Atom 7s.
post #260 of 2778
Primarily, the consensus is a sealed sub for music, ported for HT. Personally, I'll take ported every day of the week for music only over sealed, but that is just me. wink.gif
post #261 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurephonic View Post

The majority of the use cases I'm reading are for HT. Out of the budget list are there a couple that are recommended for strictly music?

The budget list is predominately bass reflex because that type of sub can gain "extra" bass by using a port. Generally speaking less expensive subs use drivers, amps and enclosure materials that are a bit of a compromise, in order to achieve a price point, so the engineers will use any advantage they can.

For the most part subs described as 'musical' will be acoustic suspension, but there are exceptions to virtually every rule. For example, the Energy S10.3 seems pretty good in that regard, and it's less than $300. That might be worth looking into.
post #262 of 2778
I wrote a longer post above, but since no one responded, I thought perhaps a more concise approach would be better.

Now that the Energy S10.3 is no longer available (or at least not available at a price I'm willing to pay) and the same can be said of the Jamo 650, I seem to be down to two main contenders options: the Bic F12 or the Dayton Sub 1200. I much prefer the price of the Dayton, but if I can get the Bic down into the $180 range (and given the holiday season, that seems feasible), I would probably go in that direction.

The main question is this: because I have Energy Micros, am I asking for trouble by getting a 12" sub? Would one be a notably better match for the Micros than the other, or will both display similar weaknesses? Is the match just going to be too bad, and should I be looking for a smaller sub, especially since this will all be going in a fairly small room (I can't remember the exact size as we haven't bought the house yet, but I know it is no bigger than 15x13x8...possibly as small as 13x10x7)?

If I need to go smaller, I guess the Dayton Sub 1000 and the Bic V1020 would be my leading candidates, although I feel in both cases I would be settling. I really wish Newegg still stocked the S10.3...I suspect that would have been almost perfect.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
post #263 of 2778
As your wife might say, '12" is GREAT!' wink.gif

Personally, I feel the Bic is overrated by those who never heard a sub before or went from a 6.5 inch sub to the Bic. The Dayton is simply fabulous for the money and I can highly recommend it. My sister has one I bought and they just think it is going to shake the house apart. cool.gif
post #264 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ORPhD View Post

The main question is this: because I have Energy Micros, am I asking for trouble by getting a 12" sub? Would one be a notably better match for the Micros than the other, or will both display similar weaknesses?

Since they're both very budget oriented clarity and detail will not be all that great, but only the BIC will really work with the Micro's. That Dayton's upper frequency response is 140Hz, while the Micro's lower frequency response is 150Hz. There's no overlap, so that doesn't work. The BIC, on the other hand, has an upper frequency response of 200Hz, sufficient overlap to allow a cross over within a range suitable for both. Blending might not be all that seamless -- tiny speakers and a less than articulate sub isn't an ideal combination -- but you would have to spend more than $200 on the sub in order to solve that problem.

BTW... the S10.3 is still available from Amazon, if you're still interested in that option.
post #265 of 2778
Amazon is the only place I can find that Energy S10.3 but is it worth $250 (+ shipping)? It seems to be very competitive on what to get pre $300 from the Klipsch RW 12-d, Energy S10.3, BIC F12 and the JAMO 650.

The other forum helped me out and I plan on getting Polk Audio Monitor 70s, CS2 and Monitor 40s for surround later so what would be the best subwoofer for me to get? Music, Gaming and movies will all be used although I really want clear sound for all 3 if thats possible. What would be the best subwoofer for me to get?
post #266 of 2778
Great thread! Although I'm still reading through it I thought I'd offer up my situation for advice. I have a 20x13x7 (LWH) dedicated home theater room (7.1) so the sub is 99% for Blu ray movie watching. I had a 10 year old Sony 10" sub that recently died on me so I'm looking to replace it. It'll be paired with the Pioneer budget line of speakers (C21, BS41, & BS21). I guess my budget is anything from 0-$300. Any suggestions?

61
post #267 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakome View Post

Amazon is the only place I can find that Energy S10.3 but is it worth $250 (+ shipping)? It seems to be very competitive on what to get pre $300 from the Klipsch RW 12-d, Energy S10.3, BIC F12 and the JAMO 650.

For less than $300 it's still competitive. Most of what I've read is from people who seem to marvel at what it can do for it's price and size.
post #268 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixone View Post

Great thread! Although I'm still reading through it I thought I'd offer up my situation for advice. I have a 20x13x7 (LWH) dedicated home theater room (7.1) so the sub is 99% for Blu ray movie watching. I had a 10 year old Sony 10" sub that recently died on me so I'm looking to replace it. It'll be paired with the Pioneer budget line of speakers (C21, BS41, & BS21). I guess my budget is anything from 0-$300. Any suggestions?

Check the post directly above yours; those are some of the more popular options in that price range.
post #269 of 2778
Jim, thanks for starting this great thread, and for provided all the good input.

I'm working on finishing up a home theater in my basement and the last piece of equipment I need to buy are the subs. I've read trough most of this thread and the Energy S10.3 keeps calling out to me. I'd prefer to have 2 subs, and the other option in my price range where I could get 2 of them is the Klipsch RW-12d. The SVS SB12NSD and the emotiva X-Ref 12 are the other 2 that I was considering, but given their price I'd only be able to go with one sub, at least for now. Would I be better off going with 2 of these lower budget subs, or go with a little higher end and just have one sub?

I'll be watching movies and TV for a majority of the time (~75%) but some music and gaming for my kids will take place when they're able to kick me out of the room. My kids and I like a stronger base, but the wife, not so much (she will be overruled in this situation). The room is about 17x13x7, and the back is somewhat open. I built a riser and bar, and with a sofit up top, there's a 3' space that's open to a larger area, along with a 2' walkway in the back.

Not sure if the receiver and speakers make a difference for which sub to go with, but I have an Onkyo TX-NR808 and Martin Logan speakers (Motion 10, 8 and 2).

And finally, does it matter (a lot) where the subs are placed? I built a stage (filled with sand) and was planning to put the subwoofers on the stage. Is that the best place for them, or should they be placed elsewhere.

Thanks in advance for any input any of you provide.

-Phil
post #270 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Your room is pretty small, so two subs may not be a necessity. Generally speaking though, if you have the room to fit them you'll often benefit from duals.

The S10.3 has a very solid reputation, with few complaints from what I've read. They're probably going to be tough to come by though, because it's a discontinued model and the remaining supply appears to be drying up. The Klipsch may have greater output potential, but the the Energy is often sited for being a bit more precise. Personally I'll take precision over output any day, but that's a matter of individual preference.

Placement is dictate primarily by your room, with no real standard to draw from. There are various guidelines, depending upon what you're attempting to achieve, but nothing is cast in stone. For example, if you want maximum output (volume essentially) co-locating them -- meaning placing one on top of the other -- is one of the best ways to do that. If you want to even out the sound you can place each of them near your front left and right speakers. Alternately, you can position them perpendicular to each other. Experimentation is actually one of the best ways to determine the ideal location in your particular room.

If you ultimately find a way to "overrule" your wife you might want to come back and post how you were able to accomplish it. I'm sure there are quite a number of guys who would love to know what that particular secret is. wink.gif
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