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Budget subwoofers discussions, opinions and questions thread - Page 23

post #661 of 2778
velodyne vrp 12 $130 ,outlaw lfp 1 plus $340 both used or a new bid pl200?
post #662 of 2778
is the Velodyne VX-11 at $115 a better option than the dayton 1200 from parts express?
post #663 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

With coupon plus shipping costs plus 5% cashback on online orders with Discover (none of the free shipping deals apply to anything this heavy apparently) a pair of Daytons would be about $245, versus $285 for the Klipsch and $330 for the PA-150.
How would the low performance compare to the Klipsch or PA-150? I know that graph looks great, but he might have lucked into an exceptional room and position. Since my listening position is in the center of a long room, that is open on the front-right, the opposite corner approach wouldn't work for me -- the only corner that's viable at all is front-left. I would think this would keep me from getting anything like that low-end he got from the Daytons?
edit: Nevermind. Went with the Klipsch. Read an unimpressed review of the Dayton with an equally unimpressive chart at HTS. No one seems to have heard more than one of these subs to compare them directly, most have a high opinion of the Klipsch, it sounds like it will go a bit lower than the PA, and it's cheaper to boot. Plus Newegg will ship faster and has a 45 day return policy.
Thanks, everyone, for all your help!

Just a followup, got the Klipsch and could not be happier. Night and day difference from my previous setup. I feel like I need to rewatch every movie in my collection now.

Still wish I hadn't missed the Epik Legend deal by a few hours, but I'm 100% satisfied with what I got and frankly, don't know what I'm missing. I'd like to keep it that way!
post #664 of 2778
I've bought the Energy Take Classic 5.1 ($399) but not used them so far as the room in not ready yet. The room is about 18Lx11Wx10H in size. I'm thinking of selling the sub that came with Take Classic and buying OSD PS10 as the review given by Jim was very positive. Also, it is well below my budget ( < $200 (incl tax and shipping). The use of the sub will be 90% movies and 10% music.

Will PS10 be an upgrade over the .1 came with Energy? I prefer PS10 for the RMS/Low Freq/Size.

Thanks.
post #665 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradymartin View Post

is the Velodyne VX-11 at $115 a better option than the dayton 1200 from parts express?

For clarity and precision the Velodyne would probably be the better of the two. When it comes to depth I suspect the Dayton can go a little deeper. For the $100-ish price neither is a bad choice, it just depends upon what you're going to use it for and how large your room is.
post #666 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Still wish I hadn't missed the Epik Legend deal by a few hours, but I'm 100% satisfied with what I got and frankly, don't know what I'm missing. I'd like to keep it that way!

That might have actually worked to your favor... I've read several posts recently that allude to quality issues and less than stellar support. I actually tried emailing Epik for something and never received a reply, even though I sent 3 messages. There may be something going on over there.
post #667 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daphnis View Post

I've bought the Energy Take Classic 5.1 ($399) but not used them so far as the room in not ready yet. The room is about 18Lx11Wx10H in size. I'm thinking of selling the sub that came with Take Classic and buying OSD PS10 as the review given by Jim was very positive. Also, it is well below my budget ( < $200 (incl tax and shipping). The use of the sub will be 90% movies and 10% music.
Will PS10 be an upgrade over the .1 came with Energy? I prefer PS10 for the RMS/Low Freq/Size.

The PS10 is about $150 now, isn't it? I believe it was, last I checked anyway. It's definitely a good value at that price, and would probably have more output and depth then the sub that came with the Takes. The Energy speakers need to be crossed over pretty high too -- in the 120Hz to 150Hz range -- which the PS10 can handle, so you should be able to integrate the two without any problems.

Your room is about 200 cubic feet larger then mine, so roughly 12% or so. If you enjoy watching movies at an elevated level you might want to consider the PS12 instead. It would be able to handle the additional space much easier.
post #668 of 2778
This is a really great thread. I have been struggling and agonizing for days on adding some low end sound. I currently have HT-S9400THx HTIB combined with an 8 inch sub under the couch for a little extra oomph. The sub that came with the 9400 sounds a little muddy to me. The room is not that large its only 14x23x8 but I feel I need a second sub. I have been reading reviews and threads for months and cannot decide on what i need to buy. I want a budget sub in the 200.00 range but if I could justify spending more I would. I might go up to 500.00 but that's pushing my current budget. Currently HT sounds pretty good but I really want a tight low hit when I listen to music. I have been a big car audio fan and its much easier to get that tight bass hit in such a small area. I thought I was going to buy the Bic 12 but I will read a review that changes my mind. any suggestions are very welcome and appreciated.
post #669 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinobyte View Post

Currently HT sounds pretty good but I really want a tight low hit when I listen to music.
Some of the most musical subs are of the sealed type. Unfortunately, they are not cheap. But since you already have a budget sub, then going up to another budget set won't make a ton of difference, so you might as well go big. smile.gif

I would be looking at SVS SB-1000 or SB12-NSD if I were you. They should be able to make a good impact in your room while being very accurate.
post #670 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

Some of the most musical subs are of the sealed type. Unfortunately, they are not cheap. But since you already have a budget sub, then going up to another budget set won't make a ton of difference, so you might as well go big. smile.gif
I would be looking at SVS SB-1000 or SB12-NSD if I were you. They should be able to make a good impact in your room while being very accurate.

I could prob swing 500 for the 1000 i wouldn't like it but i could swing it
post #671 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinobyte View Post

I could prob swing 500 for the 1000 i wouldn't like it but i could swing it

The SVS subs already suggested are good options, so either would be fine. For your room though I would also consider the PB1000. It will play lower then either of the other two, and it's pretty musical to boot. I listened to a few CD's with one the other day and was pleasantly surprised by what I heard.

Does your current subwoofer hook up to your receiver using a standard RCA cable? Some HTiB setups have proprietary cables, making it a complicated task to switch subwoofers. You might want to check that before going any further.
post #672 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinobyte View Post

I could prob swing 500 for the 1000 i wouldn't like it but i could swing it
That's actually a pretty good size room. If you really want something tight and accurate its gonna cost you. 2 Bic F12s would do a decent job of filling the room but tight and accurate - not so much. The 1000 is accurate but won't fill the room. If you are really picky you should probably get something like the 1000 and save for another one later.
post #673 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

The SVS subs already suggested are good options, so either would be fine. For your room though I would also consider the PB1000. It will play lower then either of the other two, and it's pretty musical to boot. I listened to a few CD's with one the other day and was pleasantly surprised by what I heard.
Does your current subwoofer hook up to your receiver using a standard RCA cable? Some HTiB setups have proprietary cables, making it a complicated task to switch subwoofers. You might want to check that before going any further.

the receiver is basically a Onkyo TX-NR609. I currently have both subs connected with rca Y connector. (Onkyo 12" thx cert sub and a older Panasonic 8 inch)
post #674 of 2778
Hello Jim,

Thank you for your response. Yes, the PS10 is on sale for $159. I was telling about my budget when I mentioned < $200 smile.gif (Sorry for not being clear). One PS12 for $249 or two Velodyne VX11s, Which one would you prefer?. I understand that velodyne is 33 Hz to -140 Hz whereas PS10/12 is 25 Hz to 180 Hz but not sure to what extent this will affect the HT experience. Just to add, this is my first HT and never used a Sub before.
post #675 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daphnis View Post

One PS12 for $249 or two Velodyne VX11s, Which one would you prefer?. I understand that velodyne is 33 Hz to -140 Hz whereas PS10/12 is 25 Hz to 180 Hz but not sure to what extent this will affect the HT experience. Just to add, this is my first HT and never used a Sub before.

HT requires extension, so generally speaking the deeper a sub can go the better. I say "generally" because there are other things to consider -- like clarity, total output (volume), etc. -- but one of the most sought after qualities is deep extension. If you have placement options running duals is often better then a single subwoofer, because a pair of subs will even out the sound and allow you to play it louder. However, that does nothing for depth; if a subwoofer can only play down to 30Hz then even 10 won't allow them to play 29Hz. That puts people in the situation where they need to make a choice; potentially more even distribution and greater volume or deeper bass?

Your room is not terribly large, so the volume portion is probably not very significant; even a single PS12 would have enough output to satisfy your needs, so then it comes down to sound distribution and depth. The Velodyne's are almost a steal at that price but for me they just wouldn't go deep enough, so I'd probably get the PS12 myself. You may like it loud and would prefer the extra output though, so in that case the Velodyne's would be the better option.
post #676 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

HT requires extension, so generally speaking the deeper a sub can go the better. I say "generally" because there are other things to consider -- like clarity, total output (volume), etc. -- but one of the most sought after qualities is deep extension. If you have placement options running duals is often better then a single subwoofer, because a pair of subs will even out the sound and allow you to play it louder. However, that does nothing for depth; if a subwoofer can only play down to 30Hz then even 10 won't allow them to play 29Hz. That puts people in the situation where they need to make a choice; potentially more even distribution and greater volume or deeper bass?
Your room is not terribly large, so the volume portion is probably not very significant; even a single PS12 would have enough output to satisfy your needs, so then it comes down to sound distribution and depth. The Velodyne's are almost a steal at that price but for me they just wouldn't go deep enough, so I'd probably get the PS12 myself. You may like it loud and would prefer the extra output though, so in that case the Velodyne's would be the better option.

Thank you Jim for your time and your opinion. I'll update this thread once I setup everything. Once again, you guys are great !!!
post #677 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daphnis View Post

Thank you Jim for your time and your opinion. I'll update this thread once I setup everything. Once again, you guys are great !!!
Have you made a purchase?
post #678 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Have you made a purchase?

No, Not Yet. The room (actually the house) will be ready in 3 months. So I've time :-). Mostly, I'll be buying a PS10 or PS12.
post #679 of 2778
This and it's associated "List of Budget Subwoofers" is such a great/useful tool. Many thanks to the thread creator for doing this.

I had *almost* settled on getting a Polk PSW505 before I found this thread. I'm only 4 or 5 pages into this, and already I think it's helped me see that, for my preferences, there might be better options available.

I have:
Onkyo TX-SR606 AVR
Polk Monitor 70 Series II Fronts
Polk CS10 Center Channel
Polk RM-6751 Rears (that came with the 6-speaker Polk RM-6750 set).

I currently am using the "subwoofer" (term used loosely) that came with that RM-6750 box set, and looking to upgrade.

I think my room is likely fairly large. 20'x24', but not enclosed. The "back wall" is only ~35% of that 24'. The remainder just transitions from carpet to hardwood and opens into the Kitchen/Dinette area, with the final wall being 40' away. That room isn't enclosed either. It's a relatively open floor plan.


I'm not looking for something to really rattle the walls. I'm guessing that if you want *clear*/accurate (not "muddied"/booming) bass, really low frequency response (I think people are referring to that as "extension"), AND you want a lot of Power, that's what you end up paying big $$$ for. Could be wrong, but that's an assumption that just makes sense to me.


With a budget where I'm really comfortable at $250 but willing to climb to $400 (or even $425) if given a strong enough reason to, I'd prioritize:
1) Clear/unmuddied sound quality
2) low end frequency response
3) Power/Boom


This home theater is primarily used for TV (where the Sub doesn't play a very big role), but is also used for Blu Ray and Music. Probably more music than movies, so if one performs better for one and not the other, I'd probably opt for Music over Blu Ray. I want an LFE input and the ability to dial the volume back manually on the Sub for regular Television but bring it to life for more of a presence for Music/Movies.


Before stumbling on this thread, I was leaning towards the Polk PSW505, Fluance DB-150, or HSU STF-1 over others I had seen, and almost settled on the Polk as a "best buy". After spending a little time with this (and I've still got a ways to go), I'm now really looking at the Premier Acoustic PA-120, but also really looking at the Velodyne VX-11. Wondering about the BIC PL-200, also.

Anybody have any input, based on my equipment, my preference for Sound Quality over Power, and budget? Am I on the right track, in people's minds?
Edited by psuKinger - 1/9/13 at 11:56am
post #680 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by psuKinger View Post

Before stumbling on this thread, I was leaning towards the Polk PSW505, Fluance DB-150, or HSU STF-1 over others I had seen, and almost settled on the Polk as a "best buy". After spending a little time with this (and I've still got a ways to go), I'm now really looking at the Premier Acoustic PA-120, but also really looking at the Velodyne VX-11. Wondering about the BIC PL-200, also.
Anybody have any input, based on my equipment, my preference for Sound Quality over Power, and budget? Am I on the right track, in people's minds?
How tall are the ceilings?

Regardless, that's a LOT of room to fill. A single STF-1 will do next to nothing in such a huge area. I used to own one and it was OK in a tiny apartment living room. Once I moved to a larger apt, it was already lacking. And your area is even bigger than what I was working with.

In the $400 range, I would go for two subs, maybe two BIC V1220 or two BIC F12, or even two PA-120 (not sure what they go by these days, but you used to be able to get them for around $200 each).
post #681 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

How tall are the ceilings?
Regardless, that's a LOT of room to fill. A single STF-1 will do next to nothing in such a huge area. I used to own one and it was OK in a tiny apartment living room. Once I moved to a larger apt, it was already lacking. And your area is even bigger than what I was working with.
In the $400 range, I would go for two subs, maybe two BIC V1220 or two BIC F12, or even two PA-120 (not sure what they go by these days, but you used to be able to get them for around $200 each).

Ceiling is 8' tall. It is a large space. As I said before (but maybe could do a better job explaining), carpeted "Family Room" is 20'x24', which opens up into a Kitchen/Dinette (hardwood) that is roughly 20'x15'. Kitchen has two archways (no doors) that open into the Dining Room (Hardwood, 20'x20'). There's no doors closing any of that off (but the sound would have to make the 90 degree bend and then work through the two archways to reach the dining room, so I'm not sure how much that should factor in).

Anything would be an upgrade over my current "sub". That said, like anyone else, I'm looking to get the most for my money, and something that will *pair* well with my current setup. I don't think things like "timber matching" are a concern with Subs the way they were when I upgraded the Center, correct? I read one or two places where on-board electronics might *buzz* if they don't match other electronic equipment in your setup, but that hasn't been corroborated by very many other sources, so I don't think I need to stick with Polk just because all of my other speakers are Polk...


If I understand correctly, two subs is simply a means to add more power/volume, correct? It won't do anything to help with low-frequency response, correct?

Does it make *clarity* difficult? Do you have to start tinkering with Phase Shift when that happens? How does that work? *Clarity* is my top priority, followed by low-frequency, and lastly is having a little *punch* to it.


Thanks for the recommendations, I'm pulling up the spec sheets on these BICs now that you're suggesting them, and if those Frequency responses are accurate, I'm very pleased with what I'm seeing for the Price. Whether I buy a $200 or a $400 sub, I will likely only buy one at first, hook it up, and see what I think. Then consider adding a second if I feel I want a little more *boom* in there. The price on those BIC F-12's seems almost too good to be true if they really can dig down to 25 Hz... is there a *catch*? Appreciate the informative and budget-conscience response.
Edited by psuKinger - 1/9/13 at 12:47pm
post #682 of 2778
Yes, two subs won't lower the overall frequency response, but they will add more volume so that the existing response can actually be heard/felt better. In a large listening area, two subs should also help smooth out the bass response and minimize dips.
Quote:
I read one or two places where on-board electronics might *buzz* if they don't match other electronic equipment in your setup,
If you hear buzzing, something is either broken or not grounded properly. Nothing to do with using one subwoofer brand or another.
post #683 of 2778
psuKinger
To be perfectly honest with a room and budget that size you should just be hoping you can hear them. Throw the clarity and punch out the window. Those are terms associated with quality subs. The Bic F12 is a good sub. I have one but in a much smaller room. I think 2 would be your best bet. Get 1 and see what you think but I would be surprised if you don't get another.
post #684 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

In the $400 range, I would go for two subs, maybe two BIC V1220 or two BIC F12, or even two PA-120 (not sure what they go by these days, but you used to be able to get them for around $200 each).


Well, I did a little side-by-side comparison in excel. I recorded:
Woofer Size
Power (RMS)
(Reported/Claimed) Frequency
Whether or not it has LFE Input
Price (Amazon)


For the three you mentioned above. I also added the BIC PL-200 and the Velodyne VX-11 based on postive comments I'd read earlier in this thread.

The V1220 is currently $20 cheaper than the F-12, and based on this low-level comparison chart, I can't see why. The V1220 runs at 50 more Watts RMS and claims to be able to hit 2 Hz lower than the F-12. Do you have any opinions, from hands on experience, as to which of these five is the most *articulate*? I'm not sure there's a good metric to measure this, but it's the quality I'm probably most interested in...

My gut instinct, based on what (little) I know so far, is that the Premeir Acoustic PA-120 or the BIC PL-200 might be what I'm looking for... they both cost $100 to $150 more than the F-12/V1220, but still within my price range, and if you feel like they would outperform the competition, I'd rather spend the extra $$$. Thoughts?
post #685 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by psuKinger View Post


The V1220 is currently $20 cheaper than the F-12, and based on this low-level comparison chart, I can't see why. The V1220 runs at 50 more Watts RMS and claims to be able to hit 2 Hz lower than the F-12.
Check out this V1220 vs F12 comparo if you haven't already:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1391243/bic-v1220-and-bic-f12-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs
Quote:
Do you have any opinions, from hands on experience, as to which of these five is the most *articulate*? I'm not sure there's a good metric to measure this, but it's the quality I'm probably most interested in...
My gut instinct, based on what (little) I know so far, is that the Premeir Acoustic PA-120 or the BIC PL-200 might be what I'm looking for... they both cost $100 to $150 more than the F-12/V1220, but still within my price range, and if you feel like they would outperform the competition, I'd rather spend the extra $$$. Thoughts?
I only have personal experience with V1220 and PA-120. I haven't done any official testing to compare the two, but I feel that between these two, the PA-120 is a more capable sub in terms of volume/impact. In terms of low frequency response, I couldn't really tell.

If it's going to cost you $150 more to get a PA-120 or PL-200, then I'd rather spend the money on getting two F-12s instead, considering the size of your place.

None of these will be particularly "articulate" I'm afraid. These are all budget subs afterall.
post #686 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

psuKinger
To be perfectly honest with a room and budget that size you should just be hoping you can hear them. Throw the clarity and punch out the window. Those are terms associated with quality subs. The Bic F12 is a good sub. I have one but in a much smaller room. I think 2 would be your best bet. Get 1 and see what you think but I would be surprised if you don't get another.

Based on what I read before I posted, I expected to get this feedback. When you say this, is it "harder to hear" the really really really low frequencies in a bigger room? Is that the explanation? Or is it just that you guys posting in here really like to get your teeth rattled?

I ask because I have a wife, an infant son, and a pet cat, none of whom probably want to/need to really get slapped in the face with a sonic wave of bass. I'm not totally opposed to the idea (biggrin.gif), but I will be in the minority in the household (mad.gif).

Any of these will be a significant upgrade over the "subwoofer" that came included with the Polk RM-6750 set. I used that for 4-5 years. 50 Watts RMS. I could "hear that", but maybe that's because it doesn't *dig deep* at all, but was playing a whole lot of "higher subwoofer frequencies" that it was responsible for producing because (up until a month ago, when I got my Monitor 70's) none of the other speakers in the system had any bass to them at all? In essence, comparing my ability to "hear that" to "not being able to hear these BICs" isn't comparing apples-to-apples, because we're talking about the ability to hear different frequencies? I'm asking, I don't know the answer... but I think that might explain things. It would make sense to me, at least.



OR, you just like to rattle the windows?
post #687 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post


None of these will be particularly "articulate" I'm afraid. These are all budget subs afterall.

Understood. I'm not expecting/demanding state-of-the-art performance. I just can't (currently) dedicate $1000+ to a subwoofer, but based on what I've currently got, I think there is considerable room for improvement with my current system, hence my interest.

I just wanted to throw it out there and see if any of you thought that one might do better than another, at this price point, regarding *sound clarity*. If there's essentially no difference, across the price point, that's an answer I can believe. I was hopeful... doesn't change the fact that I still want to upgrade, but can't afford a monster (yet).

Thanks for all the input. I'll chill a little and see if anyone else has any thoughts to add, but I think you (and the thread creator) have steered me down a good path here, away from a Polk PSW505 and towards a BIC or Premier Acoustic offering. And I'm appreciative of that.
post #688 of 2778
I think you always have to take the advice in this forum with the "grain of salt" that you are dealing with hardcore enthusiasts. It's always important to keep perspective on your personal expectations and needs in relation to that context.

Thus you get some hyperbolic claims like the above. If you ask what the best $200 subwoofer is, you will be told to spend $500 or it's not even worth it.

The key is being realistic about your expectations. If your desire is to achieve movie theater quality bass, with a room that size fully pressurized with powerful output down to the low reaches of sub-bass contained in modern action movie soundtracks, then, yes, you do need to spend a lot more money. But if you just want something to go "boom" and fill in the low end at reasonable volumes in your living room, and do a much better job than that little Polk sub, then you will be fine.
post #689 of 2778
Point taken. If you were reasonably satisfied with what you had before but just want to upgrade I would go with a Klipsch RW-12d. It is a better performer than the pl200 or pa120. It often goes onsale at Newegg for $299 so it is cheaper too.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1442829/klipsch-rw-12d-on-sale-for-299-at-newegg-com-again-today/330#post_22806387
And in all fairness I never said you should spend more. Just trying to keep your expectations real.
Edited by Bond 007 - 1/9/13 at 2:47pm
post #690 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think you always have to take the advice in this forum with the "grain of salt" that you are dealing with hardcore enthusiasts. It's always important to keep perspective on your personal expectations and needs in relation to that context.

Thus you get some hyperbolic claims like the above. If you ask what the best $200 subwoofer is, you will be told to spend $500 or it's not even worth it.

The key is being realistic about your expectations. If your desire is to achieve movie theater quality bass, with a room that size fully pressurized with powerful output down to the low reaches of sub-bass contained in modern action movie soundtracks, then, yes, you do need to spend a lot more money. But if you just want something to go "boom" and fill in the low end at reasonable volumes in your living room, and do a much better job than that little Polk sub, then you will be fine.

+1

That about sums it up...
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