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Budget subwoofers discussions, opinions and questions thread - Page 26

post #751 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Meh deal. This sub is good quality but it's TEENY TINY and doesn't do anything below 40Hz. If you specifically want a sub that is as small as possible (e.g. for a small apartment or condo) then it's fine, but it's not a serious HT sub.

Apparently, you have never owned or done research on the actual measurements of the Energy Sub. It's - 3 db point was tested as being 35 Hz. Sure, it drops off significantly below this point but will still have plenty of energy down in the 26 Hz range. How do I know this? I own two of them. It is a very capable Subwoofer in small to medium size spaces. wink.gif

Actually, I have read several reviews with bench tests of this sub and its Mirage "twins" (MM-6 and MM-8). That review and bench test linked support what I said -- it starts rolling off at 50Hz and goes down steeply below 40Hz.





Perhaps I was being a bit hyperbolic by saying it "doesn't do anything below 40Hz" but the fact of the matter is you aren't going to get powerful output for those "sub bass" octaves below 40Hz from a 8" cube, no matter how nice. Notice that I did acknowledge that the sub is "good quality" -- I'm sure you would have a difficult time finding a better sub for the price that is THAT small, or even close to that small. You'd probably have to double the price to the $500 SVS SB-100 to surpass it for bass quality/output in nearly as small of a package.

I don't think though it's particularly controversial or ignorant to suggest that this sub is as I said -- designed to be "as small as possible" for use in a small apartment or condo. Even the reviewer who provided those measurements noted:
Quote:
I’ve gone into some detail about this because when I used the Energy ESW-M8 to play a variety of CDs that I know have considerable musical energy below 40Hz—Famous Blue Raincoat (35Hz), Dark Side of the Moon (27Hz) and Telarc’s Great Fantasy Adventure Album (10Hz)—it didn’t seem to translate this energy efficiently into my listening room. There was certainly some deep bass output, but not quite enough to satisfy my yearnings for deep bass. However, what these auditions proved to me was the Energy’s ESW-M8 is very efficient at delivering musical energy is in the two adjacent (higher) octaves: that is, the octave between 40Hz and 80Hz, and then the octave between 80Hz and 160Hz. Because of this, I’d be more inclined to regard the ESW-M8 as a superwoofer than a subwoofer.

(snip)

But the bottom line really does come down to the physical size of the bass driver and the cabinet. You will get deeper, louder bass and a more linear low-frequency response from any of the larger subwoofers in Energy’s range, so if cabinet size is not absolutely critical, I’d recommend passing by the ESW-M8 and getting something bigger—preferably much bigger. However if for whatever reason it is essential you buy a subwoofer that is as tiny as possible, then I’d wholeheartedly recommend Energy’s ESW-M8.

So basically, my statements were pretty much accurate. Even you implicitly acknowledge this by caveating your remarks with "in small to medium spaces".

It seems that you take issue with the sematics of "serious HT sub", but I think you are in the wrong thread to argue that issue. The point is that this sub fills a specific niche -- excellent quality bass in as small a package as possible, with the compromise being limited ability to hit those lowest octaves below 40Hz for "serious HT" use. You are obviously cool with that compromise, and that's fine. Let it be known that I only have an 8" sub (the Mirage Prestige S8) which I also wouldn't qualify as a "serious HT sub", but it fits my needs perfectly. I, like you, don't really need "subterranean bass" in my current living situation.

But for someone who comes to this thread looking for advice on finding the best bang for the buck on a subwoofer purchase, I think it's important to point out the limitations of this model. If size limitations aren't an issue, anyone would be much better served getting something like the Klipsch RW-12d which will absolute crush the little M8 in overall output and sub 40Hz extension.
post #752 of 2778
The sub is on JBL's website, but none of the literature mentions amp class...

http://www.jbl.com/estore/jbl/us/products/ES150P/ES150P_JBL_US

I'm assuming it's class A/B. If it was a BASH amp, their marketing department would have been all over it.
post #753 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

The sub is on JBL's website, but none of the literature mentions amp class...

http://www.jbl.com/estore/jbl/us/products/ES150P/ES150P_JBL_US

I'm assuming it's class A/B. If it was a BASH amp, their marketing department would have been all over it.
No picture of the back on the website either. I wouldn't buy it for that reason alone. Too fishy for me.
post #754 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

The sub is on JBL's website, but none of the literature mentions amp class...

http://www.jbl.com/estore/jbl/us/products/ES150P/ES150P_JBL_US

I'm assuming it's class A/B. If it was a BASH amp, their marketing department would have been all over it.
The only pics of the amp I've seen are on youtube reviews. Maybe some of you can figure out what it is by looking at it but I can't.
I know it doesn't have speaker connections on it. If anyone looks at it I would like to hear their thoughts of it. The ES150 and the ES250 have different amps as far as power but other than that I don't know because I've only researched the ES250.

And no, I haven't bought it yet because I just can't make up my mind.

Al
post #755 of 2778
Jim would know far better than I but from my understanding class C amps have no exterior cooling fins. There's more to it Im sure but that would be an indicator.
post #756 of 2778
From the website the ES 150P is backordered and the warranty shows USA Warranty Length 1 Year electronics & 5 Years loudsdpeaker. I assume electronics is the amp and that would likely be the source of any problems.

I am drawn to the Energy ESW-M8 I realize is small but has very good specs and would serve well in the small space I have in mind. I am still searching for a good 10" model though. The BIC F12 is just too big.
post #757 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Jim would know far better than I but from my understanding class C amps have no exterior cooling fins. There's more to it Im sure but that would be an indicator.

One of the easiest ways to tell is the absence of heat fins; no fins will almost always be digital, meaning Class D or Bash. I don't recall ever seeing a Class A/B amp without fins.
post #758 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

One of the easiest ways to tell is the absence of heat fins; no fins will almost always be digital, meaning Class D or Bash. I don't recall ever seeing a Class A/B amp without fins.
Good to know. Thanks. Aren't Bash and Sledge brand names?
post #759 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

One of the easiest ways to tell is the absence of heat fins; no fins will almost always be digital, meaning Class D or Bash. I don't recall ever seeing a Class A/B amp without fins.

Yeah I have a sub with an A/B amp and it has fins that stick way out of the back. It really is strange that they didn't mention the type of amp in the JBL ES subs. The JBL is probably a bash amp. If it helps I could take a picture of the back and post it.
post #760 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Good to know. Thanks. Aren't Bash and Sledge brand names?

Sledge is SVS's amp, but it's just what they named it. There's really no technology called "sledge". BASH is a type of amp though -- like Class A/B and D -- and has to be licensed. It's a hybrid technology, which is actually what the 'h' in BASH stands for.
post #761 of 2778
Hey Jim, I just noticed a little warning on the back of the amp that says "This area is designed to get quite warm during normal operation." That would probably be a bash amp correct?
post #762 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by swim33 View Post

Yeah I have a sub with an A/B amp and it has fins that stick way out of the back. It really is strange that they didn't mention the type of amp in the JBL ES subs. The JBL is probably a bash amp. If it helps I could take a picture of the back and post it.
Please do.
post #763 of 2778



Sorry for the quality I had to use my phone. Can't find my camera! lol
post #764 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by swim33 View Post

Hey Jim, I just noticed a little warning on the back of the amp that says "This area is designed to get quite warm during normal operation." That would probably be a bash amp correct?

I would think it has to be a BASH. Pure Class A/B amps will have fins, while Class D rarely (never?) do. BASH have some of both technologies, hence the 'hybrid' designation. I don't recall ever seeing a BASH with heat fins, but I imagine there might be some. But if there's a hot spot and no fins then I can't see it being anything other then a BASH.
post #765 of 2778
I have looked at a few and have narrowed options to these for a 12' x 12' family room:

Infinity Primus PS410BK 10" - $299 at Amazon and Crutchfield
Polk Audio PSW505 - $249 for older 12" but sized right for space restrictions
JBL ES 150PBK - $160 seems a great deal but maybe risky if the reliability/build isn't there. Not that $160 is a big risk!

Is there any others that folks think much better in that budget price range?

I like the feedback on the BIC F12 but it's just too big
post #766 of 2778
The Polk occasionally comes down to $190-$200 so if you were looking into that I would wait for that price.
post #767 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGCanuck View Post

I have looked at a few and have narrowed options to these for a 12' x 12' family room:

Infinity Primus PS410BK 10" - $299 at Amazon and Crutchfield
Polk Audio PSW505 - $249 for older 12" but sized right for space restrictions
JBL ES 150PBK - $160 seems a great deal but maybe risky if the reliability/build isn't there. Not that $160 is a big risk!

What about the JBL ES250P instead? It's about the same size as the PSW505, yet it's $50 less.
post #768 of 2778
Thanks Jim I looked at that and the Bic but the height of the ES250 is a problem ( max 19" in the spaces available). From what I have read so far, the PSW505 is also pretty reliable.
I also looked at the Klipsh RW 12D but again the height is a problem unless I put it on it's side with the botttom port horizontal.

Any thoughts on the Infinity PS410? There are few reviews yet.
post #769 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by easyCraig View Post

.
nice little Martin Logan Dynamo 300 8" 75 Watt Subwoofer - at Fry's today for $118.


http://www.frys.com/product/7189262?site=sa:adpages%20page:P11_SAT%20date:010513

http://www.martinlogan.com/dynamo/index.php#dynamo300
I got this before Christmas from Amazon, to use in my cave with P4's and am very satisfied. The room is small (1050 cubic feet), and I'm using it for music only, not HT. This sub has no high pass filter, so it's a little hard to crossover with my simple amplifier, but I have it filling in the lows below 80Hz or so quite nicely. For $119 delivered I'm happy.
post #770 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGCanuck View Post

Thanks Jim I looked at that and the Bic but the height of the ES250 is a problem ( max 19" in the spaces available). From what I have read so far, the PSW505 is also pretty reliable. I also looked at the Klipsh RW 12D but again the height is a problem unless I put it on it's side with the botttom port horizontal.

Any thoughts on the Infinity PS410? There are few reviews yet.

Unfortunately, I don't have any practical experience with the Infinity. Another suggestion would be the Dayton SUB-1200. There's also the Velodyne VX-11, which is buy one get one free! That has a rear port though, which means it can't be placed in a cabinet or too close to a wall.
post #771 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

There's also the Velodyne VX-11, which is buy one get one free! That has a rear port though, which means it can't be placed in a cabinet or too close to a wall.
What would be the minimum recommended distance between the port and the wall?
post #772 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

What would be the minimum recommended distance between the port and the wall?
The port diameter.
post #773 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

What would be the minimum recommended distance between the port and the wall?

6" is about the least I'd got with, but closer to a foot would probably be better.
post #774 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

What about the JBL ES250P instead? It's about the same size as the PSW505, yet it's $50 less.

Jim, I keep going back to this JBL ES250PBK and I'd really like to snatch one before the price goes up or they start charging shipping on it. With free shipping it sounds like quite a bit of savings because this thing weighs 43 pounds which is heavier than most 12 inchers that I've looked at. It also looks to be well built for a cheap sub and even has a little bit of foam in it. Sounds like I'm trying to talk myself into it.

There is one thing though: I'm using Advent 25th Anniversary Limited Edition speakers for my fronts and they're pretty big speakers. The woofers are called 8 inch but they measure 9 inches to the outer surround so they are nice size woofers and they play very well down into the lower frequencies. Now, the problem I have is my Pioneer Elite VSX-21 is an older receiver and the subwoofer crossover can only be adjusted at 100Hz, 150Hz, or 200Hz and I would like to have the sub crossover lower than 100Hz so I could use my Advents to the best of there ability.

The only way I can set the crossover lower than 100Hz is to set the LFE/Normal switch to Normal but if I do that can I still use the LFE channel on my sub by connecting a y cable to my Subwoofer input. I have a feeling that won't work. I also have speaker preouts on this receiver that includes a subwoofer preout but I don't know if that will work either.

Anyway, confusing I know but any help with this will be appreciated.

Al
post #775 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

Now, the problem I have is my Pioneer Elite VSX-21 is an older receiver and the subwoofer crossover can only be adjusted at 100Hz, 150Hz, or 200Hz and I would like to have the sub crossover lower than 100Hz so I could use my Advents to the best of there ability.

The Pioneer receiver only has 3 settings for crossover? Something sounds odd about that, especially those settings. From what I can tell the VSX-21 isn't so old that it should only have those choices available, but I could be wrong on that because I've never seen one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

The only way I can set the crossover lower than 100Hz is to set the LFE/Normal switch to Normal but if I do that can I still use the LFE channel on my sub by connecting a y cable to my Subwoofer input. I have a feeling that won't work. I also have speaker preouts on this receiver that includes a subwoofer preout but I don't know if that will work either.

What LFE/Normal switch are you referring to? Is this on the sub or receiver? How is your current subwoofer setup?
post #776 of 2778
Thanks for all the suggestions.

I got a tip from friend and dropped dropped into a local place that deals in Paradigm and found some interesting speakers made by Sinclair Audio in Montreal. I tried the Sinclair 310S "triple 10" sub. It looks a lot like the Energy ESW-M8 except a 10" sub-woofer up front and 2 passive 10s in the sides. It's rated 300watts RMS, 800 watts peak with a frequency response of 30 to 150khz. I tried it with some music Blue Man Group, the Avatar Blur-Ray tree scene and some other stuff. It sounded amazing for a 10" sub. I may be able to get that for $350.

No size problems, no rear port and the specs look pretty good.
post #777 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

The Pioneer receiver only has 3 settings for crossover? Something sounds odd about that, especially those settings. From what I can tell the VSX-21 isn't so old that it should only have those choices available, but I could be wrong on that because I've never seen one.
What LFE/Normal switch are you referring to? Is this on the sub or receiver? How is your current subwoofer setup?

Yeah, sorry about my poor explanation.
The receiver just has those three settings.
The LFE/Normal switch is on the JBL ES250PBK. It's a switch that lets you choose either LFE or Line Level hook up with the switch on Normal it would be Line Level hook up and with the switch on LFE it would of course be LFE hook up. The JBL has two RCA inputs, one being the LFE and the other being R. The manual says you can use both for Line Level or you can use just one. The thing is you lose your receivers LFE soundtrack if you hook it up with Line Level and that's where I'm getting held up.
Is there a way for me to use the subs crossover and still get the correct audio from movies.

Like I said, my receiver has 5.1 channel inputs as well as speaker preouts that include a subwoofer preout.

I'm just concerned about getting the proper audio while using the JBL's crossover adjustment. I wish I could link the JBL manual on here but I can't. I downloaded it from JBL website.

Thanks again.

Al
post #778 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGCanuck View Post

I got a tip from friend and dropped dropped into a local place that deals in Paradigm and found some interesting speakers made by Sinclair Audio in Montreal. I tried the Sinclair 310S "triple 10" sub. It looks a lot like the Energy ESW-M8 except a 10" sub-woofer up front and 2 passive 10s in the sides. It's rated 300watts RMS, 800 watts peak with a frequency response of 30 to 150khz. I tried it with some music Blue Man Group, the Avatar Blur-Ray tree scene and some other stuff. It sounded amazing for a 10" sub. I may be able to get that for $350.

Without question, the two most important things when purchasing audio equipment are on either side of your skull; your ears. If they like something then you're good to go. Charts, graphs and the like are important components, but they can never discern how something will appeal to you.
post #779 of 2778
I am interested in your question Angler. I may go back to using Paradigm 5 SEMk3 towers for a while and they have 8" sub-woofers.
post #780 of 2778
I have the JBL ES150 and you can switch to normal on the sub and set the crossover from the sub and even without a Y cable it sounds fine.
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