or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Budget subwoofers discussions, opinions and questions thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Budget subwoofers discussions, opinions and questions thread - Page 28

post #811 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

According to JimWilson's review of the CSX12 Mark II:

Another glowing review from Sound&Vision here (compared favorably to the much more expensive Hsu VTF-15H which the reviewer had on hand): http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-cadence-csx-12-mark-ii-subwoofer?page=0,1

I ended up going with the Cadence and am pretty happy with it but don't have anything to else to compare it with so YMMV.
post #812 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdavesampson View Post

Another glowing review from Sound&Vision here (compared favorably to the much more expensive Hsu VTF-15H which the reviewer had on hand): http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-cadence-csx-12-mark-ii-subwoofer?page=0,1

I ended up going with the Cadence and am pretty happy with it but don't have anything to else to compare it with so YMMV.

Thanks mrdavesampson, this sub has got me more excited about buying one than any of the others I've considered.

Al
post #813 of 2778
I got yet another e-mail with links to the BIC Acoustech Platinum Series PL-200 $329 free shipping (maybe) from Acoustic Sound Design. Although it is rear ported, the PL-200 is a compact design. The 10" version looks like an older version at $279 on Amazon and Acoustic Sound design. Also looks like an interesting online seller.

Both look like good specs. Has anyone had experiences or thoughts on these?
post #814 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGCanuck View Post

Thanks for the pics. It actually looks pretty good. I am guessing there is an LED on the top so you know when it is on and working?

Yeah on the top is a green LED that's on when it's getting a signal and turns red when it goes into standby after 5-10 mins. The sub itself actually has this really nice textured vinyl (I think it is) on the top and sides that looks really good but you can't see it in the pictures frown.gif
post #815 of 2778
Anybody else ever try to do a forum search and can't because the "search" button is hidden behind an advertisement? Very annoying. mad.gif
I am nearly always using a tablet when I'm on here. That may be part of it. That's also why my spelling is so bad sometimes and my answers seem short. Typing on a tablet sucks but I love everything else about it.
Edited by Bond 007 - 1/17/13 at 4:32pm
post #816 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGCanuck View Post

I got yet another e-mail with links to the BIC Acoustech Platinum Series PL-200 $329 free shipping (maybe) from Acoustic Sound Design. Although it is rear ported, the PL-200 is a compact design. The 10" version looks like an older version at $279 on Amazon and Acoustic Sound design. Also looks like an interesting online seller.

Both look like good specs. Has anyone had experiences or thoughts on these?

I just saw that at acousticsounddesign.com and if I read it correctly the pl-200 is $329 and $80 off with coupon code thesub which would be $249!

Al
post #817 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGCanuck View Post

I got yet another e-mail with links to the BIC Acoustech Platinum Series PL-200 $329 free shipping (maybe) from Acoustic Sound Design. Although it is rear ported, the PL-200 is a compact design. The 10" version looks like an older version at $279 on Amazon and Acoustic Sound design. Also looks like an interesting online seller.

Both look like good specs. Has anyone had experiences or thoughts on these?
If you search this forum there is a lot of info on the pl200.
post #818 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

I just saw that at acousticsounddesign.com and if I read it correctly the pl-200 is $329 and $80 off with coupon code thesub which would be $249!

Al
Actually, that sale is on slickdeals but they are apparantly selling it for acoustic sound design.

Al
post #819 of 2778
You mean if the search isn't covered by ads??? smile.gif

Even better if their is a coupon. I would love Jim Wilson or others who know of this "new" PL-200 offering. The warranty is eye popping too!
post #820 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

I just saw that at acousticsounddesign.com and if I read it correctly the pl-200 is $329 and $80 off with coupon code thesub which would be $249!

Al
That's a very good deal. Only $50 more than an F12 and a lot better sub.
post #821 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGCanuck View Post

You mean if the search isn't covered by ads??? smile.gif

Even better if their is a coupon. I would love Jim Wilson or others who know of this "new" PL-200 offering. The warranty is eye popping too!
That happen to you too?
The pl200 isn't new at all unless you're talking about a new model that just came out. Bic has a great warranty. I have had an F12 for 2 years with no problems.
There are a bunch of Amazon reviews for the 200.
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-PL-200-Acoustech-Platinum-Subwoofer/dp/B001W3FXAQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1358470562&sr=1-1&keywords=bic+pl200
post #822 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGCanuck View Post

I got yet another e-mail with links to the BIC Acoustech Platinum Series PL-200 $329 free shipping (maybe) from Acoustic Sound Design. Although it is rear ported, the PL-200 is a compact design. The 10" version looks like an older version at $279 on Amazon and Acoustic Sound design. Also looks like an interesting online seller.

Both look like good specs. Has anyone had experiences or thoughts on these?

Jog my memory but didn't you have space restrictions on your subwoofer. Eg in a cubby or something? I wouldn't want a rear ported sub in this situation.
post #823 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGCanuck View Post

Even better if their is a coupon. I would love Jim Wilson or others who know of this "new" PL-200 offering. The warranty is eye popping too!

I hadn't heard BIC had a new PL-200, but for $250 that's a real solid deal on the "old" version. Definitely worth considering.
post #824 of 2778
Yes Batpig, I do have restrictions mostly in the height area. Some of the restrictions are from the 5'1" area superviser.#?!
post #825 of 2778
I found this link to the PL-200, http://www.avsforum.com/t/1350479/bic-acoustech-pl-200-data-bass-test-results More detail than I can absorb BUT the tester says, "It really doesn't do much to speak of below 30hz and with the top end roll off is pretty much limited to being most effective from 30-100hz at most." But I also see good wattage and specs on other subs that look like 30 to 150 described as solid, tight and even articulate for music and movies in prices ranging from $160 to $600. One unit I did demo, a Sinclair 310S sounded really good rated at 30 to 150 with a10" active and 2 10" passive woofers in a 15" cube.

So most of the subs I am able to look at on-line I can't demo. Some budget subs have specs that say "down to 25hz" but often I see reviews that say they rarely get down there and if they do they are flabby or are not audible except for some vibration you might sometimes feel. I am not looking for loud or something that sounds or feels like a double 12" woofer in the back of a '91 Civic.

I know I am limited by size at least not much over 19" in height and it would help if it was not rear ported but depth could be a factor if the woofer box was not too deep to start with.

So far I am really liking the SVS offerings like the PB-1000 simply because of dimensions, front porting and the specs they list but I have no idea if I will realistically see much of a difference between that SVS and a BIC Acoustech PL-200. Is there a common sense formula that could help me narrow it down some?
post #826 of 2778
Like others said, the pl200 is rear ported and not ideal for you
post #827 of 2778
I can squeeze the 19 1/2" depth and allow 6" for the rear port next to a 26" in cabinet in-line with the front speakers. I had a polk PSW505 in there for a while and it was rear ported. The PL-200 is actually pretty good for dimensions if I am allowing enough space for the port. The SVS PL-1000 is almost the same size box maybe 2" less deep and does have a front port bit it's just 1 factor. It is rated at 19 to 270hz on specs.

But flat out, is the SVS PL-1000 going to radically outperform the PL-200 at double the cost?
post #828 of 2778
No
post #829 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGCanuck View Post

So most of the subs I am able to look at on-line I can't demo. Some budget subs have specs that say "down to 25hz" but often I see reviews that say they rarely get down there and if they do they are flabby or are not audible except for some vibration you might sometimes feel. I am not looking for loud or something that sounds or feels like a double 12" woofer in the back of a '91 Civic.

I know I am limited by size at least not much over 19" in height and it would help if it was not rear ported but depth could be a factor if the woofer box was not too deep to start with.

So far I am really liking the SVS offerings like the PB-1000 simply because of dimensions, front porting and the specs they list but I have no idea if I will realistically see much of a difference between that SVS and a BIC Acoustech PL-200. Is there a common sense formula that could help me narrow it down some?

Can you step up your budget a small bit? It really sounds like you're wanting more but are budget constrained. Allow me to encourage if you're fiscally able. In your stated budget of up to $600.00, for a bit more you can have a SVS, SB12-NSD. Nothing back seat about this little gem that meets all requirements, quality of sound, size and WAF.

2m, ground plane measurement below:







Make note of the Long Term Power Compression graph from DataBass. Click on the "Multi-Series Charts" tab.

Note two graphs. The 100dB and 105dB graphs. That's a sub that will play it loud, isn't going be flabby, is a 14" cube and if one doesn't mind dusting, the piano black will make most wives, very happy. Just responding to your comments in post #825. In the end, it's your choice what will make you happy as pretty much, none of us get to demo a product in our home before buying.

(Without a personal listening session, I can't say which one will blow which one away.)

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/18/13 at 5:02am
post #830 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGCanuck View Post

So far I am really liking the SVS offerings like the PB-1000 simply because of dimensions, front porting and the specs they list but I have no idea if I will realistically see much of a difference between that SVS and a BIC Acoustech PL-200. Is there a common sense formula that could help me narrow it down some?
If you can swing $500 the PB1000 looks really good for what you're looking for. The SVS uses higher choice materials and would sound better than the BIC. My next sub will hopefully be an SVS when I can afford it and if you search through the sub threads you usually find people recommend either an SVS or a Hsu.
post #831 of 2778
I agree with Beeman and swim 33 if your budget allows it. The 1000 is a better sub particularly for your application and the sb12 even better. You are talking about $250, $499 and $650 respectively.
post #832 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

I hadn't heard BIC had a new PL-200, but for $250 that's a real solid deal on the "old" version. Definitely worth considering.

Jim, what would you say about comparing the Bic PL-200 @ $249 with the Cadence CSX12 Mark II @ $279?

I would like to use the sub I buy for music and home theater and the reviews I've read, including yours, for the CSX12 Mark II say it's pretty good for music as well as home theater.
I wouldn't mind $30 more if it would be a noticable improvement for music as well as home theater.

What would you say about those two and the $30 difference?

Al
post #833 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

Jim, what would you say about comparing the Bic PL-200 @ $249 with the Cadence CSX12 Mark II @ $279?

I would like to use the sub I buy for music and home theater and the reviews I've read, including yours, for the CSX12 Mark II say it's pretty good for music as well as home theater.I wouldn't mind $30 more if it would be a noticable improvement for music as well as home theater.

What would you say about those two and the $30 difference?

At those price points $30 is essentially pocket change -- unless you're really strapped for cash -- so it probably shouldn't be much of a deciding factor.

Without having heard the PL-200 it's difficult for me to make a direct comparison I'm afraid. I would like to make a distinction about something though; for me there's a difference between a sub that's good at music and a musical sub.

Being able to competently play music -- which I feel the Cadence can -- is a great attribute, especially from a sub that costs less than $300. For me though, the highest compliment I'll ever make is that a sub is musical. My personal priorities are, in order, articulation, depth and then output. For a sub to achieve a "musical" label from me is exceedingly rare, but that's my holy grail. Everyone has their own rating system, so you may feel differently. I've heard very few subwoofers that I would bestow a "musical" designation upon, but my definition of that is probably far more stringent then most peoples. Any sub that can deftly produce music will almost certainly work extremely well for HT too, so it's like the best of both worlds.
post #834 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

My personal priorities are, in order, articulation, depth and then output. For a sub to achieve a "musical" label from me is exceedingly rare, but that's my holy grail.

tongue.gif

Oooookay, and how does one determine the standard; "musical?"

(My above is a question, not a veiled dig.)

The genesis of my question is.....Yesterday I updated a pair of eighteen year old, 12", Klipsch, SW12 II subs with new drivers and radiators. In this case, I'm reusing the old boxes and amplifiers. Nothing more than a simple R-n-R. Everything else is the same. Same box, same amplifier, same location, same Anti-Mode/Audyssey settings; everything, same-same. The drivers are currently being broken in for a few days to loosen them up before running REW to get new measurements to compare to the old measurements. After the first few hours of run time with 50's/60's music playing at background levels, first impressions are, by comparison, the replacement drivers have gotten out of the way of the music.

The bass rifts are in the background where, in my opinion, they belong. The rhythm is in the middle and the lead guitars and singing are up front where, in my opinion, they belong. The point, is this what you mean by "musical?"

(If one wishes to ask the question, how does my above tie into the thread's title, it's because updating a pair of subwoofers as opposed to buying a new pair of subwoofers is budget minded)

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/18/13 at 6:56am
post #835 of 2778
Here my 2 cents on musical subwoofer.
Musical sub is the one that extends the bass response of the main system so that it is flat or very close to flat all the way down to the vicinity of 20Hz. If the product gives up at 30Hz or higher. The main speakers and the subwoofer really must overlap each other for at least one full octave. This means that the main speakers must be flat for one full octave below the crossover point and the subwoofer must be flat and musically accurate for at least a full octave above the crossover point. If the crossover point is nominally 80Hz, the subs have to have excellent performance up to 160Hz while the main speakers have to be flat or nearly flat to 40Hz, therefore a single subwoofer will never be an optimum bass solution. Subwoofers should be used in pairs for optimum music reproduction.
post #836 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by av addiction View Post

This means that the main speakers must be flat for one full octave below the crossover point and the subwoofer must be flat and musically accurate for at least a full octave above the crossover point. If the crossover point is nominally 80Hz, the subs have to have excellent performance up to 160Hz while the main speakers have to be flat or nearly flat to 40Hz, therefore a single subwoofer will never be an optimum bass solution. Subwoofers should be used in pairs for optimum music reproduction.



Based on your above, knowing the old drivers do not meet your "musical" standard, with our mains having a 3dB point of 35Hz, the crossover should be ~40Hz as knowingly using the old subs as a bad example, the old drivers in the subs were measured +/-3dB flat from 28Hz - 50Hz (tuned to 28Hz) and then roll off to the right.

(looking forward to new comparison measurements)

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/18/13 at 7:29am
post #837 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

At those price points $30 is essentially pocket change -- unless you're really strapped for cash -- so it probably shouldn't be much of a deciding factor.

Without having heard the PL-200 it's difficult for me to make a direct comparison I'm afraid. I would like to make a distinction about something though; for me there's a difference between a sub that's good at music and a musical sub.

Being able to competently play music -- which I feel the Cadence can -- is a great attribute, especially from a sub that costs less than $300. For me though, the highest compliment I'll ever make is that a sub is musical. My personal priorities are, in order, articulation, depth and then output. For a sub to achieve a "musical" label from me is exceedingly rare, but that's my holy grail. Everyone has their own rating system, so you may feel differently. I've heard very few subwoofers that I would bestow a "musical" designation upon, but my definition of that is probably far more stringent then most peoples. Any sub that can deftly produce music will almost certainly work extremely well for HT too, so it's like the best of both worlds.

Thanks Jim!

If I had done more reading I would might have known that you haven't heard the PL-200 and I just assumed you had. Anyway, I'm not expecting the perfect sub for less than $300 but just something that I wouldn't mind playing music with as well as using it for home theater and I think the Cadence sub would qualify for this. I'm just not so sure about the PL-200 although there might not be much difference.
I do know the driver in the CSX12 "looks" much better than the driver in the PL-200.
I'm thinking, with everything considered, the $30 more for the CSX12 Mark II is well worth it. I will do more reading on the PL-200 because I never considered it until I relunctantly raised my budget!

Al
post #838 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angler55 View Post

I do know the driver in the CSX12 "looks" much better than the driver in the PL-200.

Based on the measurements in this article, they disagree with your conclusions. See page four of the article.

On the face, based on company stated specifications, the CSC12 Mk II sounds like a killer sub but measurements give a different story. Read and draw your own conclusions.
post #839 of 2778
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Oooookay, and how does one determine the standard; "musical?"

I'm not sure there really is a standard to define "musical". There are some loose definitions that use words like clarity, dynamics, pitch definition, accuracy, etc. but a lot of it is purely subjective. For me it's all of the above, and then some. I want to hear every nuance, individual and distinct. No matter how chaotic the sound is I still want each component to carry it's own weight, and maintain it's uniqueness. The attack -- initial sound -- has to be sharp and quick, while the decay -- how fast it goes away -- has to be equally impressive. No ringinig, no overhang, no bloat, just precision. Add all that up and you have my definition of musical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The bass rifts are in the background where, in my opinion, they belong. The rhythm is in the middle and the lead guitars and singing are up front where, in my opinion, they belong. The point, is this what you mean by "musical?"

For you, yes that would be a musical sub. If what you're hearing is something you would describe as musical then it could certainly be considered as such. We may ultimately have a different definition, but we also probably have different musical tastes. Subwoofers that have musical characteristics will often have certain objective measurements -- like THD and the Waterfall -- which have easily identifiable patterns, but even that's not the end-all-be-all when deciding what's musical.
Edited by JimWilson - 1/18/13 at 8:28am
post #840 of 2778
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Based on the measurements in this article, they disagree with your conclusions. See page four of the article.

On the face, based on company stated specifications, the CSC12 Mk II sounds like a killer sub but measurements give a different story. Read and draw your own conclusions.
That's what I thought too when I saw that frequency graph a few days ago. It takes a nosedive from 40 Hz down. Then again, considering the price range, I'm not sure there are many subs out there that could do better. If you want a flat frequency curve down to low 20s, you're going to have to pay for it.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Budget subwoofers discussions, opinions and questions thread