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Speaker size

post #1 of 64
2/27/12 at 10:28am
Thread Starter 
If I have towers for my fronts & backs, should I change the Audyssey from small to large/full? I know some may be saying try it out & see which I like best. I am not at home and i just came up with the thought. Thank You.



P.S. I have a large center as well, same question there.
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post #2 of 64
2/27/12 at 11:20am
For best bass, you really don't want the center speaker putting out much bass. Set it to roll off at 100 Hz or as high as 150 Hz, and concentrate on getting the sub to work well with the main front speakers for the clearest best-defined bass.

The front speakers should run full-range (large). The rears should probably set to roll off at 80 hz.

The sub will probably work best if you set the receiver for the highest subwoofer f setting and set the subs rolloff knob to 60-80 Hz. make small adjustments and listen for the clearest mid-bass.





Quote:
Originally Posted by kawie01 View Post

If I have towers for my fronts & backs, should I change the Audyssey from small to large/full? I know some may be saying try it out & see which I like best. I am not at home and i just came up with the thought. Thank You.

P.S. I have a large center as well, same question there.
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post #3 of 64
2/27/12 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kawie01 View Post

If I have towers for my fronts & backs, should I change the Audyssey from small to large/full? I know some may be saying try it out & see which I like best. I am not at home and i just came up with the thought. Thank You.



P.S. I have a large center as well, same question there.

What are your speakers, kawie01? What settings does your AVR apply for each channel when you run Audyssey?
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post #4 of 64
2/27/12 at 11:48am
Thread Starter 
I have phase technology velocity towers for fronts & rears. For center I have v 5520 (2). For surrounds I have polks Fx? smaller ones. My 807 (Audyssey) placed all at 40 Hz & center at 50 Hz. Thank you for your help. All at small as well.
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post #5 of 64
2/27/12 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kawie01 View Post

I have phase technology velocity towers for fronts & rears. For center I have v 5520 (2). For surrounds I have polks Fx? smaller ones. My 807 (Audyssey) placed all at 40 Hz & center at 50 Hz. Thank you for your help. All at small as well.

Without knowing the exact specs for your speakers, and except for the Polks, those settings seem very reasonable for what you describe as 'large-ish' speakers. Those are pretty low crossover settings. You might even want to experiment with raising them to a higher setting. What is your subwoofer?

Very few speakers are truly LARGE speakers. If you set any of your channels to LARGE, you would stand to lose the bass encoded in those channels that is below your speakers' capabilities as it would not be routed to the (usually, more capable) subwoofer. There are advantages gained at both your speakers, amplifiers, and subwoofer when using the SMALL speaker setting. Among other things, the speakers and amps are relieved of amplifying and reproducing the lowest frequencies. And those low frequencies are instead sent to a speaker and amplifier, your subwoofer, that are specifically designed for reproducing those lowest frequencies.
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post #6 of 64
2/27/12 at 12:03pm
I'd set crossover to 80 all around, and small. But nothing wrong with trying large, and see if you prefer it. If you have the ability to measure FR (REW), you could validate to see whether your sub(s) and mains are handling the crossover region properly.
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post #7 of 64
2/27/12 at 12:04pm
Thread Starter 
Klipsch 10" (2). I will try other settings.
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post #8 of 64
2/27/12 at 12:35pm
Is the system for music or more for TV/movies..???
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post #9 of 64
2/27/12 at 12:38pm
Thread Starter 
Mostly movies & games. BTW what is FR (REW)? I am assuming frequency response on first one.
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post #10 of 64
2/27/12 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

For best bass, you really don't want the center speaker putting out much bass. Set it to roll off at 100 Hz or as high as 150 Hz, and concentrate on getting the sub to work well with the main front speakers for the clearest best-defined bass.

The front speakers should run full-range (large). The rears should probably set to roll off at 80 hz.

The sub will probably work best if you set the receiver for the highest subwoofer f setting and set the subs rolloff knob to 60-80 Hz. make small adjustments and listen for the clearest mid-bass.

Out of curiosity, how could you make this recommendation without knowing the receiver/preamp, speaker and subwoofer specifications, room size? I had previously thought this setting to be predicated on several factors, but if we can just shoot from the hip I'll not over-think it the next time I install new speakers.
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post #11 of 64
2/27/12 at 12:46pm
^^^

he's been told that, yet still has posted that "advice"* in multiple threads...

* which, it must be said, is horribly wrong...
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post #12 of 64
2/27/12 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

For best bass, you really don't want the center speaker putting out much bass. Set it to roll off at 100 Hz or as high as 150 Hz, and concentrate on getting the sub to work well with the main front speakers for the clearest best-defined bass.

The front speakers should run full-range (large). The rears should probably set to roll off at 80 hz.

The sub will probably work best if you set the receiver for the highest subwoofer f setting and set the subs rolloff knob to 60-80 Hz. make small adjustments and listen for the clearest mid-bass.

This is a BAD IDEA. If you set the crossover on the sub to 60hz, and your rears at 80hz and your center at 100hz or 150hz via your receiver, then all the mid-bass content between 60hz and those crossover points for those speakers will be lost. GONE. Your system will now have holes in the frequency response for 5.1 channel content.

Thus, the large (VERY LARGE) majority of people on AVS say leave your sub on bypass or at its highest crossover point, and let the receiver's bass management features control the crossover for each speaker, typically leaving your front speakers set to small. Then experiment with which crossover sounds best for each speaker; just don't pick a crossover lower than the -3db rolloff of a speaker.
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post #13 of 64
2/27/12 at 12:48pm
^^^

yea... i would say that "everybody except for one poster who refuses to learn" would constitute a "large majority"...
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post #14 of 64
2/27/12 at 12:52pm
Thread Starter 
Easy fellas.....
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post #15 of 64
2/27/12 at 1:58pm
Thread Starter 
Is there a range of crossovers that I should check into without going through the entire spectrum. Or is that what must be done?
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post #16 of 64
2/27/12 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kawie01 View Post

Is there a range of crossovers that I should check into without going through the entire spectrum. Or is that what must be done?

Above 80hz, and the bass will likely be localizable, possibly even at 80hz. So with your towers, probably no good reason to go above 80hz. And definitely don't go lower than the -3db rated roll off. Depending on what that is and the quality of your sub in relation to your speakers, you may find that 60hz sounds best with mid-bass coming out of each individual tower instead of coming from one location--the sub--whether you can localize it or not.
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post #17 of 64
2/27/12 at 2:33pm
Thread Starter 
Pardon me, but what is roll off?
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post #18 of 64
2/27/12 at 2:55pm
This is a graph of measurements of the frequency response of the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1. See where it drops dramatically in output?



It is rated by Ascend Acoustics at 44Hz - 22kHz ± 3dB.
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post #19 of 64
2/27/12 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

This is a BAD IDEA. If you set the crossover on the sub to 60hz, and your rears at 80hz and your center at 100hz or 150hz via your receiver, then all the mid-bass content between 60hz and those crossover points for those speakers will be lost. GONE. Your system will now have holes in the frequency response for 5.1 channel content.

Since crossovers don't use brick wall filters, the mid bass content may be reduced, but it won't necessarily be "gone".

It's impossible to say exactly what the effect would be in the OPs situation since we have no idea what the in room response is of his/her setup.

There are situations where leaving a gap between crossover frequencies can be beneficial. For example, in my room when running the front L&R speakers full range, there is a very large bump in response around 100hz or so. By setting the low pass filter to 80hz and the high pass filter to 160hz (a full octave apart) the bump is smoothed out nicely. Measurements confirmed the smoothed response; nothing was "gone" or missing.


Quote:
Thus, the large (VERY LARGE) majority of people on AVS say leave your sub on bypass or at its highest crossover point, and let the receiver's bass management features control the crossover for each speaker, typically leaving your front speakers set to small. Then experiment with which crossover sounds best for each speaker; just don't pick a crossover lower than the -3db rolloff of a speaker.

Good advice. This is a good place for the OP to start. There are way to many variables and unknowns about the OPs setup to make any specific crossover point recommendations (although some here will do just that). The OP is going to have to do some experimenting to see what works best in his/her situation.
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post #20 of 64
2/27/12 at 3:11pm
Roll off is how the speaker behaves outside (below, in this case) the published frequency response of your towers. If you have the V 10's , looks like they are listed down to 35 hz, + or - 3 db , so below 35 hz, it starts to drop even faster... much less output the lower you go... if you were to graph it, the point where it starts to drop off is the point of 'roll off'... it may or may not be right at 35... speaker manufacturers have been known to be... um... optomistic?
REW is short for Room Equalization Wizard, a free program you can download, and use a radio shack SPL meter, or better microphone and produce an exact graph of what your speakers are doing in your room, at your listening position.
THX standard is 80 hz all around, speakers set to small, and letting the sub handle the low frequencies. 80 hz is about the point where localization comes in... under that, MOST people can't detect which direction the sound is coming from. So you can place the subs in their optimum position ( here's where REW comes in, especially with multiple subs), because it's usually NOT where you'd put your mains.
If your subs are self powered, letting them handle up to 80 hz takes strain off your other speakers, which takes strain off the receiver thats trying to power them. Lower frequencies take more power, so freeing up your speakers to only have to reproduce from 80 up allows them the 'abilty' or 'freedom' to do just that, and they'll have more headroom (reserve power for peaks), vs being made to do everything,all the time, which is what is happening when you set them to large or full range.
You could try 70 hz, or even 60 (not the center tho... starts 'rolling off' at 65, from the specs I found)or lower for your mains, but the 'where's the power coming from way of looking at it' remains the same...
If I made any technical mistakes, believe me, someone much smarter than I will be along shortly to correct me.
hope it helps, Joe
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post #21 of 64
2/27/12 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlhungdude View Post

Roll off is how the speaker behaves outside (below, in this case) the published frequency response of your towers. If you have the V 10's , looks like they are listed down to 35 hz, + or - 3 db , so below 35 hz, it starts to drop even faster... much less output the lower you go... if you were to graph it, the point where it starts to drop off is the point of 'roll off'... it may or may not be right at 35... speaker manufacturers have been known to be... um... optomistic?
REW is short for Room Equalization Wizard, a free program you can download, and use a radio shack SPL meter, or better microphone and produce an exact graph of what your speakers are doing in your room, at your listening position.
THX standard is 80 hz all around, speakers set to small, and letting the sub handle the low frequencies. 80 hz is about the point where localization comes in... under that, MOST people can't detect which direction the sound is coming from. So you can place the subs in their optimum position ( here's where REW comes in, especially with multiple subs), because it's usually NOT where you'd put your mains.
If your subs are self powered, letting them handle up to 80 hz takes strain off your other speakers, which takes strain off the receiver thats trying to power them. Lower frequencies take more power, so freeing up your speakers to only have to reproduce from 80 up allows them the 'abilty' or 'freedom' to do just that, and they'll have more headroom (reserve power for peaks), vs being made to do everything,all the time, which is what is happening when you set them to large or full range.
You could try 70 hz, or even 60 (not the center tho... starts 'rolling off' at 65, from the specs I found)or lower for your mains, but the 'where's the power coming from way of looking at it' remains the same...
If I made any technical mistakes, believe me, someone much smarter than I will be along shortly to correct me.
hope it helps, Joe

Excellent post.
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post #22 of 64
2/27/12 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Since crossovers don't use brick wall filters, the mid bass content may be reduced, but it won't necessarily be "gone".

It's impossible to say exactly what the effect would be in the OPs situation since we have no idea what the in room response is of his/her setup.

There are situations where leaving a gap between crossover frequencies can be beneficial. For example, in my room when running the front L&R speakers full range, there is a very large bump in response around 100hz or so. By setting the low pass filter to 80hz and the high pass filter to 160hz (a full octave apart) the bump is smoothed out nicely. Measurements confirmed the smoothed response; nothing was "gone" or missing.

Agreed. There's also the situation, too, where if you had five identical monitors (like Chase Home Theater SHO-10s)--and assuming room acoustics didn't cause significantly different responses--then it could also make sense to fine tune using the sub crossover.
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post #23 of 64
2/27/12 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

This is a BAD IDEA. If you set the crossover on the sub to 60hz, and your rears at 80hz and your center at 100hz or 150hz via your receiver, then all the mid-bass content between 60hz and those crossover points for those speakers will be lost. GONE. Your system will now have holes in the frequency response for 5.1 channel content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Since crossovers don't use brick wall filters, the mid bass content may be reduced, but it won't necessarily be "gone".

It's impossible to say exactly what the effect would be in the OPs situation since we have no idea what the in room response is of his/her setup.

There are situations where leaving a gap between crossover frequencies can be beneficial. For example, in my room when running the front L&R speakers full range, there is a very large bump in response around 100hz or so. By setting the low pass filter to 80hz and the high pass filter to 160hz (a full octave apart) the bump is smoothed out nicely. Measurements confirmed the smoothed response; nothing was "gone" or missing.

And the LFE channel?


Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Agreed. There's also the situation, too, where if you had five identical monitors (like Chase Home Theater SHO-10s)--and assuming room acoustics didn't cause significantly different responses--then it could also make sense to fine tune using the sub crossover.

You'd still truncate the LFE channel at the sub's low-pass setting.
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post #24 of 64
2/27/12 at 3:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

And the LFE channel?


You'd still truncate the LFE channel at the sub's low-pass setting.

Guess that's not the greatest idea then. Now I finally completely get what you meant before

Might as well let the receiver do it's job with the bass management
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post #25 of 64
2/27/12 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

For best bass, you really don't want the center speaker putting out much bass. Set it to roll off at 100 Hz or as high as 150 Hz, .....

At these frequencies you will get localization at the sub and not the speaker. Maybe you knew some how the OP had dual subs to compensate

If you center is capable there is no reason to not let it handle bass according to its frequency response. In my situation Audessy sets my center to large or 40hz (sometimes one sometimes the other) but I prefer a crossover of 60-80 but would never go higher than 90.
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post #26 of 64
2/27/12 at 4:15pm
Thread Starter 
Wow!! I wish I knew this stuff like you guys or gals (do want to be sexest here). But that's why we come here to get info & learn. Man I will be rereading theses posts for awhile.
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post #27 of 64
2/27/12 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

For best bass, you really don't want the center speaker putting out much bass. Set it to roll off at 100 Hz or as high as 150 Hz, and concentrate on getting the sub to work well with the main front speakers for the clearest best-defined bass.

The front speakers should run full-range (large). The rears should probably set to roll off at 80 hz.

The sub will probably work best if you set the receiver for the highest subwoofer f setting and set the subs rolloff knob to 60-80 Hz. make small adjustments and listen for the clearest mid-bass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalgaryCowboy View Post

At these frequencies you will get localization at the sub and not the speaker. Maybe you knew some how the OP had dual subs to compensate

If you center is capable there is no reason to not let it handle bass according to its frequency response. In my situation Audessy sets my center to large or 40hz (sometimes one sometimes the other) but I prefer a crossover of 60-80 but would never go higher than 90.

Yeah, his recommendations don't make a whole lot of sense. Run the mains full-range but cross the center much higher than necessary. I don't think he really understands exactly how bass management works. He's yet to explain how to set the mains to run full-range AND get the front channel bass to the sub AND impose a low-pass on the sub in order to match it to the the fronts that doesn't interfere with the rerouted bass from those channels to which a crossover IS being applied AND avoid truncating the LFE channel.
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post #28 of 64
2/27/12 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Yeah, his recommendations don't make a whole lot of sense. Run the mains full-range but cross the center much higher than necessary. I don't think he really understands exactly how bass management works. He's yet to explain how to set the mains to run full-range AND get the front channel bass to the sub AND impose a low-pass on the sub in order to match it to the the fronts that doesn't interfere with the rerouted bass from those channels to which a crossover IS being applied AND avoid truncating the LFE channel.

You're right. He has no idea how proper bass management works. I don't know why he would suggest setting a crossover of 100hz to 150hz for the center channel. Unless the center channel was the size of a remote controller and had 2'' drivers.
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post #29 of 64
2/27/12 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Since crossovers don't use brick wall filters, the mid bass content may be reduced, but it won't necessarily be "gone".

It's impossible to say exactly what the effect would be in the OPs situation since we have no idea what the in room response is of his/her setup.

There are situations where leaving a gap between crossover frequencies can be beneficial. For example, in my room when running the front L&R speakers full range, there is a very large bump in response around 100hz or so. By setting the low pass filter to 80hz and the high pass filter to 160hz (a full octave apart) the bump is smoothed out nicely. Measurements confirmed the smoothed response; nothing was "gone" or missing.




Good advice. This is a good place for the OP to start. There are way to many variables and unknowns about the OPs setup to make any specific crossover point recommendations (although some here will do just that). The OP is going to have to do some experimenting to see what works best in his/her situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

And the LFE channel?


You'd still truncate the LFE channel at the sub's low-pass setting.

Good point. Fortunately my processor has a setting that will send all LFE information to the sub regardless of the low pass filter setting so no LFE information is lost.

For clarity, I'm not using the crossover on the sub (set to bypass sub's crossover). The LPF and HPF is set in my processor.
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post #30 of 64
2/27/12 at 5:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Good point. Fortunately my processor has a setting that will send all LFE information to the sub regardless of the low pass filter setting so no LFE information is lost.

For clarity, I'm not using the crossover on the sub (set to bypass sub's crossover). The LPF and HPF is set in my processor.

Yeah, most AVRs nowadays WILL pass the full LFE channel to the sub regardless of the crossover settings at the other channels. But commsysman is recommending using the sub's own low-pass filter.
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