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R972 Trinnov User Notes - Page 9

post #241 of 545
5/10/12 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

There's only been 2 or 3 7.1 BD's, and I expected more based on what reviews said about the surround mix.

Dolby PLiix, DTS-ES or Neo 6 are not available with Trinnov activated.

Curt/Jeff:

What would happen in a 7-ch setup where the backs are located at the ITU surround positions, and the sides halfway between the backs and fronts?

Would the backs receive no signal with a 5.1 soundtrack per the manual, or would Trinnov 3D remapping prevail?

Noah, sorry, i know i'm not Curt but it's pretty clear to me from his excellent notes that with the remapping it's the speaker's location that determines what gets sent to it. You could put a "surround back" channel above your center channel and get front soundstage information from it. You have 7 channels to work with anywhere in your room and the concept of a traditional speaker layout can go right out the window if you choose.

In fact with almost only 5.1 material you probably should experiment with repurposing those "back surround" channels.
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post #242 of 545
5/10/12 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Curt,

Academic question: Does the 972 not allow trimming of surround levels because of cost/complexity, or is to protect from messing up the 3D soundfield?

Is this allowed in the higher end Trinnov units?

I'm not Curt either, but in the higher end units any/all channels may be trimmed @ input or output. With remapping on, this would presumably be done @ output since remapping may result in one input channel feeding more than one output channel.
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post #243 of 545
5/10/12 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

I have some questions:

Are the feet removable from the R-972? My rack only has 8" spacing.

Can the crossovers be adjusted to say 80Hz for all the speakers with Trinnov?

Does this version of Trinnov use the same amount of taps as the Pro version?

Thanks

I don't know if the feet are removable. I don't think they are.

With the version of Trinnov in the R972, the crossovers can not be adjusted when Trinnov is used. What it sets it what you get.

Don't know about the taps.
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post #244 of 545
5/10/12 at 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twells View Post

In fact with almost only 5.1 material you probably should experiment with repurposing those "back surround" channels.

Yes, since I have the surrounds at 110, they're pretty much wasted.

I'll do another setup with them connected to the same amp channels as the surrounds, which will work better for the 2nd row of seating.
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post #245 of 545
5/10/12 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


Yes, since I have the surrounds at 110, they're pretty much wasted.

I'll do another setup with them connected to the same amp channels as the surrounds, which will work better for the 2nd row of seating.

Are you sure you want to hook them up to the same amp channels? I'd try them as independent side surrounds first and see what you get out of them. Maybe something like at 110 and 70?

I would love to be able to do 2 sets of side surrounds (1 for each row)!

If only i knew about Trinnov BEFORE I built my room. I'm pretty much stuck with 2 wasted channels in the back of my room. I did run a spare speaker wire to the front of my room so I may play around with that just for fun. Honestly, it sounds so good that I'm not tempted to mess around too much.
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post #246 of 545
5/10/12 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

...

One thing I've noticed is that no matter what test/demo material I try I get very little from the backs....

I have always found the S.Backs to be rather useless, comparatively -- either you hear nothing there, or it just sounds weird in 7ch stereo mode.

Adding Front Heights was a much more significant improvement with my previous Pro Logic IIz set up, and even better (IMO) with the way Trinnov uses the Front Heights.
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post #247 of 545
5/10/12 at 1:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

There's only been 2 or 3 7.1 BD's, and I expected more based on what reviews said about the surround mix.

There are roughly 530 7.1 BDs. Try the opening scene from Transformers 3; the first 10 seconds (Paramount logo) should let you hear your back speakers clearly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Dolby PLiix, DTS-ES or Neo 6 are not available with Trinnov activated.

Do you mean with re-mapping activated? Turning on Trinnov room correction shouldn't lock you out of surround processing modes (unless you're doing an unusual configuration with your speakers).
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post #248 of 545
5/10/12 at 1:59pm
Does Prologic II or Neural surround work with the remapping on?Is there no way to use the full Trinnov with 3D remapping by having 2CH sources "up-mixed" to 5.1?

Could someone please check to see if the feet on the R-972 are screwed on to the unit and could someone just measure what the height of the chassis is without including the feet in the measurement.

Depending on whether the unit can convert 2 CH audio to 5.1 and use the full Trinnov suite and providing that the feet are removable so I can fit it in my rack, I'm very interested in purchasing one of these to try out the Trinnov difference.


Thanks
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post #249 of 545
5/10/12 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Does Prologic II or Neural surround work with the remapping on?Is there no way to use the full Trinnov with 3D remapping by having 2CH sources "up-mixed" to 5.1?...

I can definitely get sound from all speakers (in my case 9.1) when watching 2ch material, with Trinnov Surround on.

Not at home now, so can't check on the feet -- maybe someone else can, or just try calling Sherwood. But the unit is HUGE and heavy -- it's the one thing I don't like about it. I had sworn not to go back to non-Class-D amps, but Trinnov was too much of a temptation.

Sure wish there was a Trinnov implementation in a modern, slim, cool Class-D unit....
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post #250 of 545
5/10/12 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post


Could someone please check to see if the feet on the R-972 are screwed on to the unit and could someone just measure what the height of the chassis is without including the feet in the measurement.

I just looked and yes, looks like the feet come off easily. Without feet it's about 7.125" tall.
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post #251 of 545
5/10/12 at 3:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

I can definitely get sound from all speakers (in my case 9.1) when watching 2ch material, with Trinnov Surround on.

Does that mean that Trinnov recreates the soundstage through all speakers that are hooked up even with 2Ch sources if your not using something like Pro-logic II etc... to make it into pseudo 5.1 for the 3D remapping?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twells View Post

I just looked and yes, looks like the feet come off easily. Without feet it's about 7.125" tall.

Thanks alot twells,I might just need to order one of these and check it out

I'm currently using an MC-12 with both Audyssey outboard boxes and I'm wondering if the 972 can give an improvement to what I already have,sound quality wise.I'm skeptical though. I've always been intrigued by what the 3D remapping claims to due.
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post #252 of 545
5/10/12 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Does that mean that Trinnov recreates the soundstage through all speakers that are hooked up even with 2Ch sources if your not using something like Pro-logic II etc... to make it into pseudo 5.1 for the 3D remapping?

As I understand Trinnov 2D remapping for two channel, it utilizes the other deployed channels to remap left and right channels to the specified angular subtense. In other words, your left channel speaker, listening position, and right channel speaker form a 45 degree angle, Trinnov can use the other speakers in the room to remap the left and right speakers to the desired 60 degree subtended angle.

AJ
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post #253 of 545
5/10/12 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post


Could someone please check to see if the feet on the R-972 are screwed on to the unit and could someone just measure what the height of the chassis is without including the feet in the measurement.

Someone already answered this but I don't think it's wise to run any receiver without feet. It would most likely overheat even if it's only being used as a pre-amp.
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post #254 of 545
5/10/12 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post


Someone already answered this but I don't think it's wise to run any receiver without feet. It would most likely overheat even if it's only being used as a pre-amp.

That's a good point. There are lots of vents on the bottom. I think you might be ok with a perforated metal shelf if you're using as a pre-pro but I wouldn't want to cover all those vents.
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post #255 of 545
5/10/12 at 9:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Curt,

Academic question: Does the 972 not allow trimming of surround levels because of cost/complexity, or is to protect from messing up the 3D soundfield?

Is this allowed in the higher end Trinnov units?

Adjustments are in the Trinnov code, but not used. Yes, it's allowed in the higher end Trinnov units, for both the input channels or individual speakers. Typically, one adjusts the input channel, not individual speakers.
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post #256 of 545
5/10/12 at 10:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

There's only been 2 or 3 7.1 BD's, and I expected more based on what reviews said about the surround mix.

Dolby PLiix, DTS-ES or Neo 6 are not available with Trinnov activated.

Curt/Jeff:

What would happen in a 7-ch setup where the backs are located at the ITU surround positions, and the sides halfway between the backs and fronts?

Would the backs receive no signal with a 5.1 soundtrack per the manual, or would Trinnov 3D remapping prevail?

You have "traded" back resolution for increased "side" resolution. Remapping depends on the source- ITU (music) or CINEMA. We extract spatial angle from the source tracks, then place it in the room using what is available. In this case, a premium is placed on resolution forward of 110 degrees, by having all your speakers forward of this angle. Unless you have true 7.1 content, then there isn't a high amount of resolution to be gained to the far rear.

That said, if you have 5.1 content and a physical 7.1 layout, sounds that are intended to come from the rear would ideally be directed to the rear speakers.
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post #257 of 545
5/10/12 at 10:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

There are roughly 530 7.1 BDs. Try the opening scene from Transformers 3; the first 10 seconds (Paramount logo) should let you hear your back speakers clearly. Do you mean with re-mapping activated? Turning on Trinnov room correction shouldn't lock you out of surround processing modes (unless you're doing an unusual configuration with your speakers).

Trinnov remaps both 5.1 and 7.1 original content. I don't recommend combining derived surround modes (not actual channels) with Trinnov, as derived surround modes color the spatial image. If you want a favorite flavor of derived surround mode, go for it!

Cheers
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post #258 of 545
5/10/12 at 10:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Does that mean that Trinnov recreates the soundstage through all speakers that are hooked up even with 2Ch sources if your not using something like Pro-logic II etc... to make it into pseudo 5.1 for the 3D remapping?

Steven- Trinnov will not create pseudo 5.1 from 2 channel. Trinnov will recreate what it can accurately of the soundfield as provided by only two channels. 5.1 has 360 degrees of spatial info. Stereo has 60 degree front plus some room info. You may like this as is, or combined with one of the derived surround formats that artificially build the sides.

You'll have to listen to it to appreciate what you will have. I know there are others on the list that like their stereo processed- including me. I used an MC8 for years and let it go. It will be a personal preference, certainly worth the experiment.

Cheers,
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post #259 of 545
5/10/12 at 10:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by twells View Post

That's a good point. There are lots of vents on the bottom. I think you might be ok with a perforated metal shelf if you're using as a pre-pro but I wouldn't want to cover all those vents.

Mine is in a rack enclosure with a small fan sitting on top at the rear. The fan is plugged into a switched outlet. I learned long ago to use 220vac fans running at 110 to keep the noise in check with just enough airflow. You may be ok if you have a fan combined with air access to the sides.
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post #260 of 545
5/11/12 at 12:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

I don't recommend combining derived surround modes (not actual channels) with Trinnov, as derived surround modes color the spatial image.

When you say "Trinnov", do you mean re-mapping or just room correction?
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post #261 of 545
5/11/12 at 1:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Remapping depends on the source- ITU (music) or CINEMA. We extract spatial angle from the source tracks, then place it in the room using what is available.

Just to clarify, Trinnov does not actually know the angles in the source, it only knows the angles defined in the particular speaker layout the user chose to apply to that source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Trinnov remaps both 5.1 and 7.1 original content.

Yes, but don't sell it sort. Trinnov is not just for original multichannel content. Since Trinnov cannot distinguish 5.1 from 2.0+PLII, or 7.1 from 5.1+PLIIx, it should be equally effective with all sources.
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post #262 of 545
5/11/12 at 7:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

When you say "Trinnov", do you mean re-mapping or just room correction?

Remapping.
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post #263 of 545
5/11/12 at 7:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Just to clarify, Trinnov does not actually know the angles in the source, it only knows the angles defined in the particular speaker layout the user chose to apply to that source.

Yes, but don't sell it sort. Trinnov is not just for original multichannel content. Since Trinnov cannot distinguish 5.1 from 2.0+PLII, or 7.1 from 5.1+PLIIx, it should be equally effective with all sources.

Trinnov automatically distinguishes between 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 content. Trinnov doesn't know if it's a ITU (music) or CINEMA format, so you have to indicate this. The remapping result is ideal for ITU. For CINEMA, there is some slight variance, as studios vary their mixing layouts. In our full units, there are 17 source angle/channel assumptions, and more can be added in 3d.

Cheers,
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post #264 of 545
5/11/12 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Trinnov automatically distinguishes between 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 content.

Of course. But what I was mentioning was that when 2.0 content is processed by PLII, that becomes "5.1 content" as far as Trinnov is concerned. Same for 5.1 with PLIIx = 7.1.
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post #265 of 545
5/11/12 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Trinnov automatically distinguishes between 2.0, 5.1 and 7.1 content.

If the Trinnov chip/algorithm receives 7.1 channels of PCM, how can it distinguish between a discrete 7.1 soundtrack and 5.1+PLIIx? Both will appear as 7.1 channels of PCM.
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post #266 of 545
5/11/12 at 11:46am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

If the Trinnov chip/algorithm receives 7.1 channels of PCM, how can it distinguish between a discrete 7.1 soundtrack and 5.1+PLIIx? Both will appear as 7.1 channels of PCM.

I'm thinking you are correct in your assumption, but I can't say what the micro-controller does in this case without experimentation. Any time remapping engaged, no speakers should be muted. ALL speakers are ALWAYS used by Trinnov, sometimes at very low levels. A fully muted speaker during remap is an indication the micro-controller has shut it down- an unintended outcome. The selected remap is based on channels coming from the source and the user variable ITU or CINEMA.

The result depends on what the micro-controller is doing. What we've found is that the micro-controller doesn't take advantage of all the Trinnov modes that are available in the code. As an example, if one has only three front speakers, the micro-controller always mutes the center when it shouldn't. So some of this is being discovered through experience.

It's unfortunate that Sherwood had issues with HDMI, etc during development that it precluded our full testing of their micro-controller interaction. The up side is you have Trinnov functions for most input configurations.

Cheers,
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post #267 of 545
5/11/12 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

It's unfortunate that Sherwood had issues with HDMI, etc during development that it precluded our full testing of their micro-controller interaction.

Agreed, that's unfortunate. But it is also a testament to Trinnov room correction that four years after the 972 came out, people are willing to put up with the HDMI issues just to have Trinnov. I mean, they're not buying this receiver because it has a special secret version of DTS decoding that no one else has. To Sherwood's credit, they've made an effort to fix some of the bugs.
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post #268 of 545
5/11/12 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Agreed, that's unfortunate. But it is also a testament to Trinnov room correction that four years after the 972 came out, people are willing to put up with the HDMI issues just to have Trinnov. I mean, they're not buying this receiver because it has a special secret version of DTS decoding that no one else has. To Sherwood's credit, they've made an effort to fix some of the bugs.

Trinnov is da bomb, and I felt like I was stealing for what I paid for the 972.
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post #269 of 545
5/11/12 at 2:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt_Trinnov View Post

Steven- Trinnov will not create pseudo 5.1 from 2 channel. Trinnov will recreate what it can accurately of the soundfield as provided by only two channels. 5.1 has 360 degrees of spatial info. Stereo has 60 degree front plus some room info. You may like this as is, or combined with one of the derived surround formats that artificially build the sides.

You'll have to listen to it to appreciate what you will have. I know there are others on the list that like their stereo processed- including me. I used an MC8 for years and let it go. It will be a personal preference, certainly worth the experiment.

Cheers,

Curt, can I use the Pro-logic II mode with 2-CH audio and use the full Trinnov correction with 3D remapping? I believe Noah said that Neo 6 and Pro-logic IIx won't work with Trinnov activated on the 972.What about Pro-logic II and neural surround? If I can't use any derived surround modes for 2CH audio with the full Trinnov(room correction+remapping)then it's a deal breaker for me.

Also, in on older post it was stated that 972's Trinnov filter taps were 1024(FIR) per main channels and 7(IIR) filters per the sub.Was this the same with the Pro optimizer 2.0?
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post #270 of 545
5/11/12 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Someone already answered this but I don't think it's wise to run any receiver without feet. It would most likely overheat even if it's only being used as a pre-amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twells View Post

That's a good point. There are lots of vents on the bottom. I think you might be ok with a perforated metal shelf if you're using as a pre-pro but I wouldn't want to cover all those vents.

My idea would have been to remove the feet and add lower profile 1/8" stick on rubber feet(to fit in my 8" shelf) and then place a cooling fan on the back end of the unit pulled out part way from the back of the shelf for clearance for the 1 1/4" high cool components fan I have since there isn't enough space to place in on top under the shelf.

Does the unit run cooler when used just as a pre-amp or due the amps still produce a lot of heat?
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